How to balance PvE and PvP

moo_2021 · February 2024

Since there have been discussions how they're so incompatible, may I suggest an ultimate solution - simply making PvE contents more realistic?

For example:

1. Boss won't recognize taunt anymore. Instead it would always target the healer, the member with lowest HP or showing largest dip of health in AoE attack, and whoever attempting to resurrect another.
2. Boss always locks on a target until it dies or uses ultimate to save itself.
3. Boss repeatedly stuns, knocks back, pulls and fears players every time their CC immunity end. Also it always remembers and counts the immunity period because it's the boss.
4. Half of bosses are changed to use ranged attacks and ranged AoEs, 28 meters.
5. All bosses now apply DoTs and poisons on players
6. All bosses now block heal themselves and/or have healer mobs.
7. All bosses now constantly jump up and down, activate major and minor expedition, run around columns to break LoS and use gap closer on the locked target
8. All bosses now have a chance to lure players into a random trap and bomb them with ultimate skills and timed light and heavy attacks. It should achieve at least 10 attacks within one GCD.

and so on

What do you think? Dungeons would be pretty fun with this right?

moo_2021 · February 2024

Also a new cloaking type of boss that stays invisible most of time to prepare bombing on the weakest player and then cloak away. It can also heal itself back to full health in one second unless stunned.

kevkj · February 2024

You seem to have a good idea on optimized PVP gameplay, perhaps you should try following your own well written steps for success.

moo_2021 · February 2024

kevkj wrote: »

You seem to have a good idea on optimized PVP gameplay, perhaps you should try following your own well written steps for success.

I couldn't, but that's what people would expect so why not. Haven't people been asking for more challenges? Those would be perfectly valid challenges for veteran contents, and in sync with PvP playstyle as well.

Oh and also knock players off cliff.

Hapexamendios · February 2024

Balance them separately.

Gray_howling_parrot · February 2024

moo_2021 wrote: »

Since there have been discussions how they're so incompatible, may I suggest an ultimate solution - simply making PvE contents more realistic?

For example:

1. Boss won't recognize taunt anymore. Instead it would always target the healer, the member with lowest HP or showing largest dip of health in AoE attack, and whoever attempting to resurrect another.
2. Boss always locks on a target until it dies or uses ultimate to save itself.
3. Boss repeatedly stuns, knocks back, pulls and fears players every time their CC immunity end. Also it always remembers and counts the immunity period because it's the boss.
4. Half of bosses are changed to use ranged attacks and ranged AoEs, 28 meters.
5. All bosses now apply DoTs and poisons on players
6. All bosses now block heal themselves and/or have healer mobs.
7. All bosses now constantly jump up and down, activate major and minor expedition, run around columns to break LoS and use gap closer on the locked target
8. All bosses now have a chance to lure players into a random trap and bomb them with ultimate skills and timed light and heavy attacks. It should achieve at least 10 attacks within one GCD.

and so on

What do you think? Dungeons would be pretty fun with this right?

This is an extremely (sorry if this comes off as rude, not meant to be) over-the-top & unnecessary solution. This would require re-working an incredible amount of content to compensate for a minority of the playerbase.

In reality, all they need to do is have conditions on abilities & gear if they become problematic such as "when battle spirit is active . . . " to be able to balance them separately.

PvE and PvP will never be balanced separately no matter how many of these threads are made because they're not going to see any financial incentive to do so & it would require quite a bit of development time to make a system like this - especially with the crew they're working with. It'd be a different story if they didn't have another big title they were working on. PLUS - when was the last time the combat team did something the players really wanted or communicated with us? Not likely to happen friend.

Ph1p · February 2024

Interesting attempt at humor...

Soarora · February 2024

This would never happen, it would entail destroying every single PvE group content to rebuild them all. Also as a tank, I like tanking and I’d like to not see my role disappear.
Balancing PvP and PvE I think isn’t too difficult, ZOS has the tools (“against monsters”, “when battle spirit is active”), they just aren’t doing it very often.

Aurielle · February 2024

Cooperharley wrote: »

moo_2021 wrote: »

Since there have been discussions how they're so incompatible, may I suggest an ultimate solution - simply making PvE contents more realistic?

For example:

1. Boss won't recognize taunt anymore. Instead it would always target the healer, the member with lowest HP or showing largest dip of health in AoE attack, and whoever attempting to resurrect another.
2. Boss always locks on a target until it dies or uses ultimate to save itself.
3. Boss repeatedly stuns, knocks back, pulls and fears players every time their CC immunity end. Also it always remembers and counts the immunity period because it's the boss.
4. Half of bosses are changed to use ranged attacks and ranged AoEs, 28 meters.
5. All bosses now apply DoTs and poisons on players
6. All bosses now block heal themselves and/or have healer mobs.
7. All bosses now constantly jump up and down, activate major and minor expedition, run around columns to break LoS and use gap closer on the locked target
8. All bosses now have a chance to lure players into a random trap and bomb them with ultimate skills and timed light and heavy attacks. It should achieve at least 10 attacks within one GCD.

and so on

What do you think? Dungeons would be pretty fun with this right?

This is an extremely (sorry if this comes off as rude, not meant to be) over-the-top & unnecessary solution.

It’s not a solution. OP doesn’t actually care about balancing PVP and PVE. This is a very thinly disguised PVP complaint thread created by a PVEer who is upset about having to enter a PVP zone to earn event tickets. They’re pretty common every time Whitestrake’s rolls around. Threads like this one will go away shortly after the current event ends, and will reappear when the next PVP event begins.

AcadianPaladin · February 2024

Don't forget all bosses would get a 70% crit chance.

I think this would cause a lot of PvP players to enjoy PvE more. And I think it would cause a lot of PvE players (like me) to move to another game.

Aerin · February 2024

To build a house, should we try to use simple paper sheets until we manage to do it? Or should we use the correct materials?
For moving large and heavy loads from one place to another, should we use appropriate means or try to do it using crayons?
When someone is sinking in the sea, should we use a buoy or give them rocks to help them float?
You will never find a balance between PVE and PVP. They are simply incompatible.
Either we strive to have a good and successful PVP game, or we strive to have the best PVE game possible.
Finding a balance between them is simply impossible. And Zenimax has been trying to do this for about 10 years. 10 years and they have never succeeded, why is that? Worse than not focusing on just one side to achieve the best possible result, it's focusing on 2 completely failed objectives and without effort to improve.

Take a look at what they did with the Templar class. Also, look at what they're doing with the Necromancer class. And for the love of goodness, check out "roleplay" for Zenimax. You have to pay the bounty for using your necromancer skills to make quests ... In PvP, it's all okay, perhaps because it's a balanced option for Zenimax. Good grief...

Consider how unbalanced sets are in PvP, even with over 500 options available. Notice how bad the server lag is, despite Zenimax's best efforts to solve the problem.
Look at what they did with Oakensoul users. First, they sell it, then they nerf it almost to the point of being completely useless. You can't even go into trials like vCR, and soon you won't even be able to use it in PvP, something you've paid for.
Look at what they did with Arcanist just to boost sales. They buff this class only for the sake of selling, nothing more. They don't care about balance between Arcanists and other races. They nerf Oakensoul, then they buff something else just to boost sales.
Look at the maintenance schedule... Zenimax needs maintenance almost every 15 days to fix problems or whatever the reason may be.

Zenimax has only one direction: profit, and nothing else matters. You will never find any balance, because no one cares. Unless it gives more profit!

They're trying, and they're trying hard. But because they can't focus solely on one direction, they fail even harder.

AnduinTryggva · February 2024

moo_2021 wrote: »

Since there have been discussions how they're so incompatible, may I suggest an ultimate solution - simply making PvE contents more realistic?

For example:

1. Boss won't recognize taunt anymore. Instead it would always target the healer, the member with lowest HP or showing largest dip of health in AoE attack, and whoever attempting to resurrect another.
2. Boss always locks on a target until it dies or uses ultimate to save itself.
3. Boss repeatedly stuns, knocks back, pulls and fears players every time their CC immunity end. Also it always remembers and counts the immunity period because it's the boss.
4. Half of bosses are changed to use ranged attacks and ranged AoEs, 28 meters.
5. All bosses now apply DoTs and poisons on players
6. All bosses now block heal themselves and/or have healer mobs.
7. All bosses now constantly jump up and down, activate major and minor expedition, run around columns to break LoS and use gap closer on the locked target
8. All bosses now have a chance to lure players into a random trap and bomb them with ultimate skills and timed light and heavy attacks. It should achieve at least 10 attacks within one GCD.

and so on

What do you think? Dungeons would be pretty fun with this right?

So basically you suggest to make PvE content that it works like PvP fights?

I think you're not making many friends with this proposition...

RetPing · February 2024

Pvers dont like surprises.
Doing a trial/dungeon is like an actor that learn a part. You study a script and then follow it.
No surprises, no improvisation.
That is the main difference between pvp and pve, so your advice will not be good for pvers.

AnduinTryggva · February 2024

RetPing wrote: »

Pvers dont like surprises.
Doing a trial/dungeon is like an actor that learn a part. You study a script and then follow it.
No surprises, no improvisation.
That is the main difference between pvp and pve, so your advice will not be good for pvers.

You have not much played some advanced PvE content apparently.

RetPing · February 2024

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

RetPing wrote: »

Pvers dont like surprises.
Doing a trial/dungeon is like an actor that learn a part. You study a script and then follow it.
No surprises, no improvisation.
That is the main difference between pvp and pve, so your advice will not be good for pvers.

You have not much played some advanced PvE content apparently.

I have done all dungeon/trial in HM mode, the only one I have not done are the one in Necrom cause I dont have the chapter.
For most of them I watched a youtube video, read a guide.
And I am not a top player.

oldbobdude · February 2024

I don’t know about balancing PvP and PvE. They just aren’t the same kind of gameplay. They need to be separate. I know that would be hard and doubt it would get done but sets for PvP and sets for pve that can only be used in those play areas. Skills that are PvP and skills that are pve only in those areas. Maybe even the same for CP.

AvalonRanger · February 2024

Remove all "meta" aspect from ESO. Simple and reasonable.

AvalonRanger · February 2024

"Consider environment based contemporary game design, and must quit character building game design."

I've been saying this important and fundamental opinion 5 years. But ZOS never changes.

Soarora · February 2024

AvalonRanger wrote: »

Remove all "meta" aspect from ESO. Simple and reasonable.

This is impossible. Meta is just the mathematical best. The only way for there to be no best is for everything to be the exact same. There’s viability outside meta and I’ve only ever seen people push meta for scorepush tris and kinda sorta some HMs but they aren’t that strict about it.

TaSheen · February 2024

AvalonRanger wrote: »

"Consider environment based contemporary game design, and must quit character building game design."

I've been saying this important and fundamental opinion 5 years. But ZOS never changes.

Thankfully ZOS doesn't change. I really think you need to make your own game....

Malyore · February 2024

I'm down for this. I want dark souls bosses in ESO. Way more fun designs lol

TaSheen · February 2024

Malyore wrote: »

I'm down for this. I want dark souls bosses in ESO. Way more fun designs lol

Oh my gosh. No thanks.... There's a reason I'm NOT playing Dark Souls after all.

AnduinTryggva · February 2024

RetPing wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

RetPing wrote: »

Pvers dont like surprises.
Doing a trial/dungeon is like an actor that learn a part. You study a script and then follow it.
No surprises, no improvisation.
That is the main difference between pvp and pve, so your advice will not be good for pvers.

You have not much played some advanced PvE content apparently.

I have done all dungeon/trial in HM mode, the only one I have not done are the one in Necrom cause I dont have the chapter.
For most of them I watched a youtube video, read a guide.
And I am not a top player.

Mh, how do you come then to the conclusion that everything is skripted? A lot of advanced mechanics, e. g. in vet Earthen root enclave or vet Vateshran or vet Mahlstrom arena have a randomization in it that sometimes makes two major mechanics happen simulateneously.
How can you express so much condescence towards PvEers by naming them "actors who learned their parts" and "don't like surprises" if you know - and you should - that there is quite some randomness in advanced content?

And now compare this to the gankers and bombers that have their rotation on macro... ^^

Soarora · February 2024

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

RetPing wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

RetPing wrote: »

Pvers dont like surprises.
Doing a trial/dungeon is like an actor that learn a part. You study a script and then follow it.
No surprises, no improvisation.
That is the main difference between pvp and pve, so your advice will not be good for pvers.

You have not much played some advanced PvE content apparently.

I have done all dungeon/trial in HM mode, the only one I have not done are the one in Necrom cause I dont have the chapter.
For most of them I watched a youtube video, read a guide.
And I am not a top player.

Mh, how do you come then to the conclusion that everything is skripted? A lot of advanced mechanics, e. g. in vet Earthen root enclave or vet Vateshran or vet Mahlstrom arena have a randomization in it that sometimes makes two major mechanics happen simulateneously.
How can you express so much condescence towards PvEers by naming them "actors who learned their parts" and "don't like surprises" if you know - and you should - that there is quite some randomness in advanced content?

And now compare this to the gankers and bombers that have their rotation on macro... ^^

There’s not really randomization like you say. Some mechanics are time-based while some are health-based and that’s how you end up with overlapping mechanics (too much or too little DPS). PvE may not have the surprise of PvP, but that doesn’t make it easy. PvPers like to say PvE is boring. I don’t know how far they get into PvE but hey, I’ve heard people say tanking is boring too. Just not for everyone, doesn’t make the content easy.

Braffin · February 2024

Soarora wrote: »

AvalonRanger wrote: »

Remove all "meta" aspect from ESO. Simple and reasonable.

This is impossible. Meta is just the mathematical best. The only way for there to be no best is for everything to be the exact same. There’s viability outside meta and I’ve only ever seen people push meta for scorepush tris and kinda sorta some HMs but they aren’t that strict about it.

^Exactly this.

Sometimes I catch myself wishing zos would cater to the demands of eliminating the purpose of a build.

Just to see those players realize how brutally they are outplayed by more skilled people in a world, where only personal player skill makes the difference.

But yeah, at least no meta anymore. That's a good thing, isn't it?