The grind to just be competitive

Daruq · February 2024

In PvP AvA whatever you want to call it
there are people who just steamroll everything.
They barely take any damage, and the deal a lot of it.
They can wipe whole groups and still have room for 2 more groups to wipe.
And this is not an exaggeration.

And I think the reason is, orange, mythic items.
Getting them requires a mind numbing, boring, repetitive, awfully long grind.

And for what? Just to become competitive.

But that's not the worst part.
You don't even start with yellow leads, no you have to grind your way up to yellow leads, only to find out that you need more leads, because if you excavate one piece it's part of 5+ other pieces that make the final item.
[snip].

The problem with the game is, that it isn't made for people to have fun, it's made so the company makes maximum profits.

The shop is so expensive.
Get that, you go through the trouble to collect all skyshards of a zone, only to unlock the ability to buy those skyshards with your alts for real money.
Unlocking a build slot, 1500 premium currency aka about 12.50€, just for one stupid armory slot. You should get 10 or even 20 inclusive.
5000 premium currency for a mobile vendor/bank/etc, that you can never unlock while playing the game, only through real cash. (~38€).

Levelling up a crafter without ESO+ is possible but a real pain in the ass.
And once you get used to the craft bag you don't want to play without it,
because you'll be wasting time banking your stuff every now and then, multiple times a day.

And what's more, you need to have certain expansions, sry DLC, unlocked (bought) in order to be able to compete.

This game is expensive, moneywise and timewise.
Many decisions are made just to keep you in game longer,
or to make your life miserable if you don't pay for a subscription.

In the beginning you could play without too much of a time and money investment.
But even then there was the vampire alpha class or the werewolf alpha class that would guarantee a victory.
I remember we went to Cyrodiil with our guild. I had over a decade of PvP game experience and had a tanky ranger build that could self-heal.
1 vampire wiped all of us (8 people), I was the last one standing, I kited and burst dps and healed etc, it was close to death, when it pressed 1 button, healed to full and started dealing damage that killed me in less than 2 seconds. That was when the game was new, 1 month in.
And a bite was sold from player to player for high price, which lead to people selling gold and people buying gold.

If I want to make use of those transmog (or w/e they're called) stones, aka making use of all the armor, weapons and jewelry I collect all the time, aka all the time invested into collecting different sets, I have to buy the Clockwork City DLC. Why Clockwork DLC? Because it's the only area where such a station exists in the entire game.
Well either that or, you guessed it, an even more expensive home station, that you can only place in your house alongside an armory if you're a subscriber, and it costs 5000 premium currency.
If I want scrying I need the High Isle DLC.
And now a new DLC is coming out, which will make player characters even more powerful.
Buy it or be a loser.

And what's with those "Dungeon DLC". You have to pay extra for dungeons? [snip]?

Some people say this game isn't P2W.
This couldn't be further from the truth.

If scrying and excavating were even fun in some way.
But they suck.

You spend all your time bringing some virtual numbers up only to have a chance to compete with the ultra addicts who played this game for 10 years.

Other annoyances.
Harvesting a node takes 3 seconds! Every.single.time
The invisible walls, and the need to run A R O U N D or find a path. So annoying.
The time it takes for one to lose aggro is also way too long.
Why can't I teleport or change areas when some mob chases me? Stupid! I have to wait, sometimes even up to 20 seconds for the red flash to go away. Why is there even an "in combat" state?

This game had a promising start but now, 10 years later, it's [snip].

I'll be glad once my subscription runs out.
I feel like I need to log in every day, because of the stupid log in rewards and so I get my money's worth.
I feel like a slave "playing" this game.

I could have fun playing PvP but I can't because I didn't grind enough so be competitive.
The only people I have a chance against are other poor losers who also are on the grind, no mythic, no proper sets.
It takes way too long to become competitive and is too expensive because of all the DLC required.

Imagine how great and fun this game could've been if profit wasn't it's main objective.

[edited for profanity bypass]

Malyore · February 2024

I will start out by saying I didn't read all of that. But as for your complaint to the mythics, I personally enjoy them. This game doesn't really have room for giving players powerful gear from a dire quest or big bad enemy like the other elder scrolls games do. Mythics sometimes are very powerful, other times they're very niche, but I think it's rewarding to have to piece them together through a skill-line and discovery of leads. It makes you feel like you've earned a good unique piece of gear.
Honestly I wish they had more mythics and branch them out to where there are some that are excluded or changed in pvp settings. Because as it stands usually pvp is imo what effects pve the most in terms of gear effects.
If your struggle is the skill-line, just spend some time in Artaeum. Once it's leveled up you never have to worry about the skill-line aspect of it again.

What you say about the shop being too expensive is very true though. For the price of a new entire videogame/deluxe-dlc you can instead get 1 style motif book in ESOs crown store. Most purchases in the store affect solely cosmetics too, which seems way too expensive for some polygons that don't do anything. If you don't want to spend the money on it you can just do endeavors for ¼ of a year to get the equivalent cost of that motif. And thats excluding the fact that player houses are the most expensive thing in the store usually. Those cost about 3 full dlcs. For a player home. If you're really lucky you can turn it into a guild hall someday to make it useful to gameplay.
I'm just glad ZOS seems to think mounts are the coolest most sought-after creation ever. I hate using mounts, so having them fill up those radiant apex crown slots is good by my book. Imagine if zos had character cosmetics locked behind radiant apex rewards 💀

Neoauspex · February 2024

Some of the best PvP builds currently are 2 5pc, monster, arena weapon on 1 bar. No need for a mythic to be competitive.

Snaggel · February 2024

People used to 1vsX way before mythic items. Sounds like a skill issue. The dedicated pvp players have learned how to play and use the games limitations to their advantage.

That being said, line of sight is definitely the most infuriating aspect of pvp. Your skills don't just miss, they get enirely canceled if an opponent is repeatedly duking in and out of cover at a high movement speed while they cannot miss their own defensive abilities. It is THE most effective way to stall, get your hp and resources back up and ultimately leads to gameplay favoring defensive gameplay. Your offensive abilities can get canceled. Their defensive abilities cannot. Understanding this difference is key to being successful in pvp. You can also die if you don't know and prepare for your opponents burst capability, if you run out of resources or get caught in the open while outnumbered.

As for Mythics, their numbers are balanced but as with just like regular sets, most mythics are very much niche and are outpeformed by the generalized mythics like Death Dealer's Fete or Markyn's Ring of Majesty (pvp wise). Blaming mythic items or whatever items you have to grind in an MMO is not justifiable reason enough when both your own skill level matters a lot as well the amount of alternatives that the base game alone now provides. If you weren't expecting some kind of time investment to get your fightning character geared up, then I am sorry to tell that you might be right that this game isn't for you and you'd be better off playing some competitive shooters that allows for much faster method of obtaining (grinding) strenghtening items that wipes off your progress after every match.

This game is not pay to win but one can get a headstart by buying from crown that I too see as overly too expensive meant to entice "big spenders". Everything however can be obtained by just playing, there is nothing you can't get by playing with the caveat you have access to necessary content. But you don't need to have access to literally everything, although some of the better, currently in meta items are locked behind paid dlc content that you'd need to buy separately, or better yet, subscribe to eso+. You could make an argument that locking good items behind paid content is pay to win, but it's not exactly the same as instantly unlocking everything with just one click of a button akin to buying a skill line. You still have to, you know, actually play the game and deserve your items. I do agree that some mythic leads however, are a bunch of stink and sometimes you want to tear your hair out because luck didn't favor you for so long. I would wholeheartedly support some sort of "pity" system that would allow us a guranteed chance to earn our desired mythic eventually in case we don't get quickly enough by random chance by doing activities that would unlock the antiquity lead for mythic item.

As I've pointed out above, your own level of skill plays WAY greater imporance in how your character will be peforming. I like this aspect of ESO regarding player power level. It rewards merit. What I do have a gripe with is predatory nature of crown crates because they're basically gambling and the sheer cost of doing so.

I do not debate against the fact that this game is designed to keep player retention for as long as possible by providing incentives to keep playing so that they may earn something they like, like a a mount or to give them the means for steady progression that makes them feel powerful. That's nature of MMOs and ESO in particular does it fairly well. There is, however, an overwhelming amount of content to be experienced that has accumulated over the years, some of it being "obsolete" as in, a player does not really have a good reason to go there (such as certain dlc dungeons that you will never find a dungeon group for).

Money wise, I do not like crown crate gambling, but, the amount of money I've sunk to subscribe to eso+ as well as buy some other crown related products (for guaranteed outcome mind you) is a lot but if you were to look just how many hours I've sunk into this game, the money to hours ratio is much better than what I got from a lot of other games, includign the acclaimed triple A titles. Going without interacting crown store is fine and a huge majority of players play the game exactly that way. It's usually the big spender, the "whales" that use it the most. Being fair, I enjoyed most of my game play time and sometimes I hated it because I felt stuck due to having rely on other players in this MMO but to this day I still persevere.

Lastly, please join a guild that has a transmute station available for use for free in their guild hall. Most guilds list the name of player who has a dedicated guild hall.

TLDR ESO is flawed but it is not unfair.

moo_2021 · February 2024

Daruq wrote: »

In PvP AvA whatever you want to call it
there are people who just steamroll everything.
They barely take any damage, and the deal a lot of it.
They can wipe whole groups and still have room for 2 more groups to wipe.
And this is not an exaggeration.

And I think the reason is, orange, mythic items.
Getting them requires a mind numbing, boring, repetitive, awfully long grind.

And for what? Just to become competitive.

But that's not the worst part.
You don't even start with yellow leads, no you have to grind your way up to yellow leads, only to find out that you need more leads, because if you excavate one piece it's part of 5+ other pieces that make the final item.
[snip].

The problem with the game is, that it isn't made for people to have fun, it's made so the company makes maximum profits.

I have some orange items but no that's not why some players are unkillable and hit like a truck.

If you watch what they're doing - They keep several HoTs from back bar. They maintain buff rotation, and they don't go after a target like crazy (which newbies like me always do). Instead they move a lot to avoid being targeted, and look for opportunities to do burst combos meant to kill, not just to wound someone. Heavy attack is also part of their rotation so they don't need high recovery.

The very high damage number that happen occasionally (NOT always) can be achieved if they use a set like Clever Alchemist, which everyone can craft, or Balorgh. Also you could notice that some of those pros don't necessarily get high score in objective BGs, because they wouldn't put themselves at risk.

Also you only need to grind for a mystic item once. Oak ring is perfect for one bar, others are not as important, and many just run 2 * 5 pieces sets with a monster set to proc damage, which you cannot do with a mystic item.

Daruq wrote: »

The shop is so expensive.
Get that, you go through the trouble to collect all skyshards of a zone, only to unlock the ability to buy those skyshards with your alts for real money.
Unlocking a build slot, 1500 premium currency aka about 12.50€, just for one stupid armory slot. You should get 10 or even 20 inclusive.
5000 premium currency for a mobile vendor/bank/etc, that you can never unlock while playing the game, only through real cash. (~38€).

Subscribe ESO+ and use those crowns for that, or buy crowns during discount period or get them off-market.

You can earn a lot of skill points by doing all dungeons at least once, which also level up the undaunted line for extra 6% health, magicka and stamina for PvP. That's much more fun than what grinding guides told me to.

Daruq wrote: »

he vampire alpha class or the werewolf alpha class that would guarantee a victory.
I remember we went to Cyrodiil with our guild. I had over a decade of PvP game experience and had a tanky ranger build that could self-heal.
1 vampire wiped all of us (8 people), I was the last one standing, I kited and burst dps and healed etc, it was close to death, when it pressed 1 button, healed to full and started dealing damage that killed me in less than 2 seconds. That was when the game was new, 1 month in.
And a bite was sold from player to player for high price, which lead to people selling gold and people buying gold.

If you're on PC EU server, plenty of people would come (including me) to bite you for free.

The vampire lord can't kill you unless you're close to dead already. It's not Goliath.

Jaimeh · February 2024

Daruq wrote: »

Some people say this game isn't P2W. This couldn't be further from the truth.

I have levelled 18 alts and have never bought any of the convenience items from the store (skyshard packs, etc.), thankfully nothing in the game is PTW. As for the grind, it's an MMO so it's expected, and ZOS have made some helpful additions over the years, like the stickerbook (you can literally go around asking if someone has a weapon drop for sale, and you skip the grind all together), and more recently the buy-able leads from IA.

Daruq wrote: »

If I want to make use of those transmog (or w/e they're called) stones, aka making use of all the armor, weapons and jewelry I collect all the time, aka all the time invested into collecting different sets, I have to buy the Clockwork City DLC.

You can visit a guildhouse, or a friend's house and use their station. It's a non-issue.

Daruq wrote: »

And a bite was sold from player to player for high price, which lead to people selling gold and people buying gold.

Who sells bites anymore? I often give out bites and also routinely see other players helping people who ask in zone chat.

Daruq wrote: »

And what's with those "Dungeon DLC". You have to pay extra for dungeons? [snip] Levelling up a crafter without ESO+ is possible but a real pain in the ass.
And once you get used to the craft bag you don't want to play without it,
because you'll be wasting time banking your stuff every now and then, multiple times a day.?

How do you suppose paying all the employees, maintaining servers, making new content for the game is funded? It's a free to play game, it needs the cash shop, and it needs to make subscriptions attractive, but you can absolutely play without a subscription, not to mention you can use in-game gold to buy all the DLCs. This post reads as either a veiled attempt at trolling or just supreme entitlement.

Daruq wrote: »

Harvesting a node takes 3 seconds! Every.single.time

Leaning more and more to the trolling hypothesis.

Daruq wrote: »

I feel like a slave "playing" this game. You spend all your time bringing some virtual numbers up only to have a chance to compete with the ultra addicts who played this game for 10 years.

I could have fun playing PvP but I can't because I didn't grind enough so be competitive.
The only people I have a chance against are other poor losers who also are on the grind, no mythic, no proper sets.
It takes way too long to become competitive and is too expensive because of all the DLC required.

You can't expect to be immediately on par with someone who has played for a longer time than you, but the game offers so many XP buffs that it's possible to catch up. I have a guildmate who used to level accounts, and it's really not that bad if you have a good levelling method. And tbh it's better to just enjoy playing the game and not worry about higher level players--no one's going to duel a player with half their CP and crafted gear and berate them if they lose. Also, I've seen good players who moved to different servers and starting fresh and were doing high level content even on low CP, non-meta gear characters, it's not impossible if you know what you are doing. I think you are just not enjoying the game right now, and that's valid, everyone who has played for a long time has moments they feel burned out or done with it, but I think a lot of your points were unfair or flat out misinformed.

LokiPagan · February 2024

I kinda feel like this is just bait. Mythics don't magically make you good in PvP, I started doing PvP with a mythic with my PvE build and I got slaughtered until I figured out what to do, what skills worked, and what gear to use - and I'm using mostly crafted gear, it isn't difficult to obtain. Watch some videos on youtube of people that are good, look up builds, and learn how to play. This isn't some kid game where you just slap a button with random gear you found and win.

Make some friends in guilds, make money through trading (it isn't hard if you spend time learning), and buy things from the crown store with gold. Though I absolutely agree some of the prices in the crown store are absurd to the point of it feeling like a giant scam.

This game requires some effort on the part of the player, it doesn't just hand everything to you. And there's a LOT of content - I've got 2-3k hours in and there's still stuff to do. $15 a month for a sub per month is eating out at a restaurant once, it's not a large amount of money, and boom, you have all the DLC besides the newest one.

I'm sure all of us have some issues with the game, and ways we'd like to see the game direction go, but you just kinda seem to hate it. Why not go play a different game? Nobody is forcing you to be here.

Aislinna · February 2024

Daruq wrote: »

Imagine how great and fun this game could've been if profit wasn't it's main objective.

Imagine how shut down and ended this game would've been if profit wasn't it's main objective.

Drammanoth · February 2024

To be succesful, you need: 1) to know your class, 2) skills, 3) gear

It's all fine and dandy when one is maxed out, but if one has no PvP oriented mentality, does not stick to the rotation, the chance to fail increases.

I can join some zerg, farm some APs, do quests, and be happy that I did something with a group. No one forces me to be competitive, 1vs10000000 players (hyperbole intended).

RicAlmighty · February 2024

[Removed]