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Why ESO will lose one tank over the Tormentor set changes
Skyrghren
✭✭
I come from games where the tank's job is to grab ALL aggro and then hold all aggro until the dps have done their job. Now I realise that the people designing ESO's co-op game have a different approach, that is the tank bringing buffs to the dps' gear setup and jogging along behind the team until the dps have cleared the way to the boss, maybe pulling the odd outlying add into the dps' aoes along the way or taunting a heavy add or two on the way. In normal difficulty dungeons, they're apparently nothing but ballast required to make the queue pop at worst and dps-boosting buff monkeys at best. While this is admittedly an exaggeration for comedic effect, it is much closer to the truth than I like it to be.
When I tried my hand at tanking here the first time, I was quickly disappointed because I would either spend all my time chasing down every single add and putting my little single-target taunt on them (which seemed a bit pointless because the dps would be finished with a pull before I'd even gone through all adds), or I'd just not try and join in the dpsing and the group would clear a pull just as fast (which would make me question why I actually specced my skills and gear for survivability in the first place). Short version: I didn't feel like I was contributing much - in fact, other than the three times when I would make a boss face my way for a while, I had nothing to do in the dungeons I'd be running back then.
At this point, let me step back for a bit and praise how ESO's core design philosophy is allowing players to use skills from across all weapons lines and class lines and guild lines and such to craft wildly diverse builds that can turn any character into pretty much any sort of hybrid monster you'd like. You can have beefy dotters, you can have glass cannon nukers, you can build behemoths that can solo vet dungeons with one mouse button, if you game the systems right. What you make will not always be an optimal build, but by golly, is it fun to theory-craft and stack shields on a tiny elf until they can stand in a barrage and not even touch their own hp at all, or hone a sneaky stealthy vampire nightblade until their sneak attack can delete a boss out of existence. What I'm trying to say is, in ESO, you can build pretty much anything.
Except a tank that can gather and hold aggro efficiently.
THEN I read that there was, in fact, a way to put an aoe taunt on all classes if you got that one set and also slotted this one skill morph from the 2h line - it wouldn't be optimal for any content requiring actual tanking and was definitely not recommended in any higher difficulties, but hey, I could give it a try and see how it works, right?
I leveled my 2h, farmed Banished and boom. The charge morph that procs the Tormentor set's aoe taunt has a decent radius, no cooldown and can be spammed until you run out of stamina and gets you aggro on everything caught in each blast radius. Now, just to compare here: there are other options to physically pull in multiple distant adds, like the Silver Leash skill morph, monster sets, that pull on a block, or some class skills. There are also sets that either pull in everything in a certain radius upon a charge or a bash skill, but none of those actually taunt more than a single enemy per skill use, meaning you will gather half a room of adds around you, but unless the dps end them fast, the adds will either be dispersing just as fast, or they'll just keep shooting your healer, but now stacked around you and you'll still have to individually taunt the whole bunch you just pulled towards you to prevent that.
The Tormentor set allows one to reverse that order: charge into all the spread-out groups of adds in a pull first, then take either all the time you need to gather them one by one, or you can combine the above options to gather them all in one place and then apply a taunt to the gathered flock in one swift charge into their middle and have all eyes on you for 15 seconds. Dancing amidst two dozen daedroths in the last Banished2 fight? Just do one charge every 14 seconds and you can use the rest of the time sustaining, shielding, blocking, weaving in and out of their aoes, they'll all be on you the whole time. Compare that to chasing down every single one whose puncture has run out while trying to aim past the hitbox of two dozen of their colleagues crowding around you and the Tormentor dance is a much less frustrating exercise in holding a whole room on the tank.
Let's be clear, you do sacrifice an entire set's worth of group buffs, the serious trial groups et al will therefor kick you if you even contemplate bringing that set, but in casual normals? Tank goes in, tank has the room in three moves and can then spend a good 15 seconds reordering the seating arrangements in there at will. Low dps groups can focus on bringing the gathered adds down. High dps groups can nuke and move on while the tank repeats the process - without the cooldown of the Void Bash or Rush of Agony sets. Let's be honest, all of the vanilla Vets and many of the DLC ones have been powercrept so that they are roughly the challenge level of normals now, so in most of the dungeons, the tank can control literally all aggro and actually tanks throughout the whole dungeon with this niche aoe taunt-enabling set. This casual queueing is where I live, where I thrive as a tank and I definitely would not - did not enjoy myself as much without the Tormentor set's niche mechanic which (via three additional steps) enables aoe taunting. I would not dare bring it to vet trials, but in random pugs, if I queue as tank, I am now contributing, not just along for the ride.
I've seen the set on precisely zero lists of meta tanking sets, so it's not like it's taking over the professional tanking scene and must be reined in - it is beyond niche. That's why I feel personally attacked that they'll eliminate this elaborate workaround and go out of their way to artificially cripple the tank's ability to do what I considered the main job of the tank before joining ESO - controlling enemy aggro.
Faced with the options of either going back to inefficient taunting as functionally a group buffer or simply not tanking anymore, I'm afraid I will just grow frustrated and do the latter and focus on other stuff ESO has to offer instead.
Rant over, thanks for listening to me screaming into the void.
Edited by Skyrghren on February 15, 2024 4:44PM When I tried my hand at tanking here the first time, I was quickly disappointed because I would either spend all my time chasing down every single add and putting my little single-target taunt on them (which seemed a bit pointless because the dps would be finished with a pull before I'd even gone through all adds), or I'd just not try and join in the dpsing and the group would clear a pull just as fast (which would make me question why I actually specced my skills and gear for survivability in the first place). Short version: I didn't feel like I was contributing much - in fact, other than the three times when I would make a boss face my way for a while, I had nothing to do in the dungeons I'd be running back then.
At this point, let me step back for a bit and praise how ESO's core design philosophy is allowing players to use skills from across all weapons lines and class lines and guild lines and such to craft wildly diverse builds that can turn any character into pretty much any sort of hybrid monster you'd like. You can have beefy dotters, you can have glass cannon nukers, you can build behemoths that can solo vet dungeons with one mouse button, if you game the systems right. What you make will not always be an optimal build, but by golly, is it fun to theory-craft and stack shields on a tiny elf until they can stand in a barrage and not even touch their own hp at all, or hone a sneaky stealthy vampire nightblade until their sneak attack can delete a boss out of existence. What I'm trying to say is, in ESO, you can build pretty much anything.
Except a tank that can gather and hold aggro efficiently.
THEN I read that there was, in fact, a way to put an aoe taunt on all classes if you got that one set and also slotted this one skill morph from the 2h line - it wouldn't be optimal for any content requiring actual tanking and was definitely not recommended in any higher difficulties, but hey, I could give it a try and see how it works, right?
I leveled my 2h, farmed Banished and boom. The charge morph that procs the Tormentor set's aoe taunt has a decent radius, no cooldown and can be spammed until you run out of stamina and gets you aggro on everything caught in each blast radius. Now, just to compare here: there are other options to physically pull in multiple distant adds, like the Silver Leash skill morph, monster sets, that pull on a block, or some class skills. There are also sets that either pull in everything in a certain radius upon a charge or a bash skill, but none of those actually taunt more than a single enemy per skill use, meaning you will gather half a room of adds around you, but unless the dps end them fast, the adds will either be dispersing just as fast, or they'll just keep shooting your healer, but now stacked around you and you'll still have to individually taunt the whole bunch you just pulled towards you to prevent that.
The Tormentor set allows one to reverse that order: charge into all the spread-out groups of adds in a pull first, then take either all the time you need to gather them one by one, or you can combine the above options to gather them all in one place and then apply a taunt to the gathered flock in one swift charge into their middle and have all eyes on you for 15 seconds. Dancing amidst two dozen daedroths in the last Banished2 fight? Just do one charge every 14 seconds and you can use the rest of the time sustaining, shielding, blocking, weaving in and out of their aoes, they'll all be on you the whole time. Compare that to chasing down every single one whose puncture has run out while trying to aim past the hitbox of two dozen of their colleagues crowding around you and the Tormentor dance is a much less frustrating exercise in holding a whole room on the tank.
Let's be clear, you do sacrifice an entire set's worth of group buffs, the serious trial groups et al will therefor kick you if you even contemplate bringing that set, but in casual normals? Tank goes in, tank has the room in three moves and can then spend a good 15 seconds reordering the seating arrangements in there at will. Low dps groups can focus on bringing the gathered adds down. High dps groups can nuke and move on while the tank repeats the process - without the cooldown of the Void Bash or Rush of Agony sets. Let's be honest, all of the vanilla Vets and many of the DLC ones have been powercrept so that they are roughly the challenge level of normals now, so in most of the dungeons, the tank can control literally all aggro and actually tanks throughout the whole dungeon with this niche aoe taunt-enabling set. This casual queueing is where I live, where I thrive as a tank and I definitely would not - did not enjoy myself as much without the Tormentor set's niche mechanic which (via three additional steps) enables aoe taunting. I would not dare bring it to vet trials, but in random pugs, if I queue as tank, I am now contributing, not just along for the ride.
I've seen the set on precisely zero lists of meta tanking sets, so it's not like it's taking over the professional tanking scene and must be reined in - it is beyond niche. That's why I feel personally attacked that they'll eliminate this elaborate workaround and go out of their way to artificially cripple the tank's ability to do what I considered the main job of the tank before joining ESO - controlling enemy aggro.
Faced with the options of either going back to inefficient taunting as functionally a group buffer or simply not tanking anymore, I'm afraid I will just grow frustrated and do the latter and focus on other stuff ESO has to offer instead.
Rant over, thanks for listening to me screaming into the void.
6
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Necrotech_Master✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭i came from a game where aoe taunts were the basis of the game lol
that being said this game after playing it for 10 years, i notice definitely doesnt really need the same kind of thing
even in vet trials, the weakest trash enemies are basically no threat to anyone, all the tank really needs to do is chain pull them into the pile so they die faster instead of hunting them all down
applying a taunt to a ranged enemy will not make them move closer for example unless you LOS or out-range them
in normal content, you are right that tanks usually arent needed, unless its a group of entirely new players that have never played the game before
in vet content they are pretty necessary, mainly to control the bosses or heavy enemies, as most of them will 1-2 shot anything other than a tank spec
the undaunted skill is a pretty good ranged taunt that can be used with any weapon setup so no need to go chasing enemiesplays PC/NA
handle @Necrotech_Master
active player since april 2014
i have my main house (grand topal hideaway) listed in the housing tours, it has multiple target dummies, scribing altar, and grandmaster stations (in progress being filled out), as well as almost every antiquity furnishing on display to preview them
feel free to stop by and use the facilities0 -
El_Borracho✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I think Void Bash is a far better alternative to Tormentor, especially as it doesn't require a 5 piece set. I've never seen a tank use Tormentor in an organized raid, or Void Bash for that matter, as those are more popular in dungeons. But, to each their ownEdited by El_Borracho on February 15, 2024 9:27PM1 -
Skyrghren✭✭El_Borracho wrote: »I think Void Bash is a far better alternative to Tormentor, especially as it doesn't require a 5 piece set. I've never seen a tank use Tormentor in an organized raid, or Void Bash for that matter, as those are more popular in dungeons. But, to each their own
Void Bash can pull enemies in a certain radius every thirteen seconds. In a slow dungeon, that's enough to gather a small room once per pull.
With a tormie set, I can gather one aoe's worth of enemies every gcd., meaning I can zoom from add group to add group uninterrupted, and every single enemy I can tag will follow me to wherever I wanna stack them for fifteen seconds. No stragglers, no "hey there, tank, imma go seek out the one not yet loaded-in player standing still at the start while you run to the next boss hoping most adds will follow you". Tormie can gather area after area after area comprehensively, charge after charge after charge, and they are stuck on you for the whole taunt's duration and will keep following you blindly. With void bash, a small selection of adds are temporarily relocated and then go back to doing their own thing immediately and that only every 13 seconds.0 -
BejaProphet✭✭✭✭✭
✭El_Borracho wrote: »I think Void Bash is a far better alternative to Tormentor, especially as it doesn't require a 5 piece set. I've never seen a tank use Tormentor in an organized raid, or Void Bash for that matter, as those are more popular in dungeons. But, to each their own
Void Bash can pull enemies in a certain radius every thirteen seconds. In a slow dungeon, that's enough to gather a small room once per pull.
With a tormie set, I can gather one aoe's worth of enemies every gcd., meaning I can zoom from add group to add group uninterrupted, and every single enemy I can tag will follow me to wherever I wanna stack them for fifteen seconds. No stragglers, no "hey there, tank, imma go seek out the one not yet loaded-in player standing still at the start while you run to the next boss hoping most adds will follow you". Tormie can gather area after area after area comprehensively, charge after charge after charge, and they are stuck on you for the whole taunt's duration and will keep following you blindly. With void bash, a small selection of adds are temporarily relocated and then go back to doing their own thing immediately and that only every 13 seconds.
You just explained the reason for the nerf.Royal Poet's Dungeon Tanking Guide https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/416797/royal-poets-guide-to-traditional-tanking-in-veteran-dungeons#latest3 -
ElderSmitter✭✭✭✭✭I love Tanking. I Tank Vet Trials and Dungeons and i do not use nor was ever interested in Tormentor. I understand your upset because it was a tank set you loved and that is 100% understandable.
Part of being a Tanks as you get better at it is shedding all the Block traits moving to all Divines for an additional buff on yourself and changing your Tank Suits for your group. Let me give you an example.
My Staple Tank suit is Turning Tide I enjoy the option of being able to back bar and it is an Extremely powerful Tank Set that complements so many other sets.
My other Tank Suit is Powerful Assault In 4 Man content. Giving the group a ton of DPS.
I love combining Spaulder of Ruin (Mythic) with Powerful Assault and Turning Tide for an incredible DPS boost to weaker and stronger groups.
For Extreme Harder content where group damage is heavy coming in, I run Perfected VROL which is very underrated. For the Tank and it also Provides a nice Damage reduction for the entire Group. Trials or 4 man.
Pairing Vrol with Scourge Monster Set can help you as a Tank when you're on your own as a group is focusing elsewhere while still being able to give a group a buff.
I do not use Void anymore as I can chain things in very quickly combining Frost Clench with my Chain flying around using Charging Maneuver.
My point is YES Tormentor was fun for some. As a Tank you need to be flexible. Having multiple sets for different situations.
I run Mostly Bewitched Food and Rotate 3 different Potions depending on what i am doing.
Keep tanking and I'm sure you will find another go to that works for you and your group!
Best of Luck
Regards
ElderSmitter3 -
Skyrghren✭✭BejaProphet wrote: »El_Borracho wrote: »I think Void Bash is a far better alternative to Tormentor, especially as it doesn't require a 5 piece set. I've never seen a tank use Tormentor in an organized raid, or Void Bash for that matter, as those are more popular in dungeons. But, to each their own
Void Bash can pull enemies in a certain radius every thirteen seconds. In a slow dungeon, that's enough to gather a small room once per pull.
With a tormie set, I can gather one aoe's worth of enemies every gcd., meaning I can zoom from add group to add group uninterrupted, and every single enemy I can tag will follow me to wherever I wanna stack them for fifteen seconds. No stragglers, no "hey there, tank, imma go seek out the one not yet loaded-in player standing still at the start while you run to the next boss hoping most adds will follow you". Tormie can gather area after area after area comprehensively, charge after charge after charge, and they are stuck on you for the whole taunt's duration and will keep following you blindly. With void bash, a small selection of adds are temporarily relocated and then go back to doing their own thing immediately and that only every 13 seconds.
You just explained the reason for the nerf.
So that the three tanks total who use it in normals don't get uppity and develop ideas above their station? Can't have them disturb the dps currently soloing the dungeon.2 -
pelle412✭✭✭✭✭I am sure that set was fun for some, but it's really not necessary to be an efficient tank. You taunt things that are dangerous and use various means of cc for the rest. It takes very little effort from the tank, especially using void bash like some have mentioned already.2 -
RetPing✭✭✭✭✭Sorry but there is something I don't understand, you are talking of normal dungeons?
Since when people follow or wait for the tank in a normal dungeon?3 -
Techwolf_Lupindo✭✭✭That set is the only set a Tank Werewolf can use. This is another gutting of the werewolf class.4 -
Araneae6537✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I am sure that set was fun for some, but it's really not necessary to be an efficient tank. You taunt things that are dangerous and use various means of cc for the rest. It takes very little effort from the tank, especially using void bash like some have mentioned already.
So since Tormenter is not overpowered, being far from meta, certainly not necessary, why does it need to be effectively deleted??? Tanking is my least preferred role if I have to deal with mobs, it’s just not at all fun for me, unless I can charge in and aggro a bunch that way, that’s actually fun. Again, not meta and even suicidal in difficult content, but made it more likely for those of us who tank casually to queue for the easier pledges or a random normal, which seems like a good thing for everyone.2 -
pelle412✭✭✭✭✭Araneae6537 wrote: »So since Tormenter is not overpowered, being far from meta, certainly not necessary, why does it need to be effectively deleted??? Tanking is my least preferred role if I have to deal with mobs, it’s just not at all fun for me, unless I can charge in and aggro a bunch that way, that’s actually fun. Again, not meta and even suicidal in difficult content, but made it more likely for those of us who tank casually to queue for the easier pledges or a random normal, which seems like a good thing for everyone.
I can't speak for why it was changed. If you want a simple set to tank normals with, use the void bash set. One slam and everything is on you, then cc and dps will blast it down. Very simple and effective. I think you'd like it.2 -
Skyrghren✭✭Sorry but there is something I don't understand, you are talking of normal dungeons?
Since when people follow or wait for the tank in a normal dungeon?
They do not. Unless the tank can effectively gather all the adds and lead them somewhere to stack in three, maybe four charges by using the Tormentor set, in which case the tank is not entirely useless. That was my whole point.1 -
BejaProphet✭✭✭✭✭
✭BejaProphet wrote: »El_Borracho wrote: »I think Void Bash is a far better alternative to Tormentor, especially as it doesn't require a 5 piece set. I've never seen a tank use Tormentor in an organized raid, or Void Bash for that matter, as those are more popular in dungeons. But, to each their own
Void Bash can pull enemies in a certain radius every thirteen seconds. In a slow dungeon, that's enough to gather a small room once per pull.
With a tormie set, I can gather one aoe's worth of enemies every gcd., meaning I can zoom from add group to add group uninterrupted, and every single enemy I can tag will follow me to wherever I wanna stack them for fifteen seconds. No stragglers, no "hey there, tank, imma go seek out the one not yet loaded-in player standing still at the start while you run to the next boss hoping most adds will follow you". Tormie can gather area after area after area comprehensively, charge after charge after charge, and they are stuck on you for the whole taunt's duration and will keep following you blindly. With void bash, a small selection of adds are temporarily relocated and then go back to doing their own thing immediately and that only every 13 seconds.
You just explained the reason for the nerf.
So that the three tanks total who use it in normals don't get uppity and develop ideas above their station? Can't have them disturb the dps currently soloing the dungeon.
You gave a detailed explanation of how nothing in the game can do what tormentors does then you play dumb with me when I point that out?
You can’t have it both ways dude. Either there is another option you can consider, or alternatively tormentor accomplished things beyond the scope of anything in this game and is therefore a valid nerf target.
You gotta pick one. I personally think it’s the latter.Royal Poet's Dungeon Tanking Guide https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/416797/royal-poets-guide-to-traditional-tanking-in-veteran-dungeons#latest1 -
Skyrghren✭✭BejaProphet wrote: »BejaProphet wrote: »El_Borracho wrote: »I think Void Bash is a far better alternative to Tormentor, especially as it doesn't require a 5 piece set. I've never seen a tank use Tormentor in an organized raid, or Void Bash for that matter, as those are more popular in dungeons. But, to each their own
Void Bash can pull enemies in a certain radius every thirteen seconds. In a slow dungeon, that's enough to gather a small room once per pull.
With a tormie set, I can gather one aoe's worth of enemies every gcd., meaning I can zoom from add group to add group uninterrupted, and every single enemy I can tag will follow me to wherever I wanna stack them for fifteen seconds. No stragglers, no "hey there, tank, imma go seek out the one not yet loaded-in player standing still at the start while you run to the next boss hoping most adds will follow you". Tormie can gather area after area after area comprehensively, charge after charge after charge, and they are stuck on you for the whole taunt's duration and will keep following you blindly. With void bash, a small selection of adds are temporarily relocated and then go back to doing their own thing immediately and that only every 13 seconds.
You just explained the reason for the nerf.
So that the three tanks total who use it in normals don't get uppity and develop ideas above their station? Can't have them disturb the dps currently soloing the dungeon.
You gave a detailed explanation of how nothing in the game can do what tormentors does then you play dumb with me when I point that out?
You can’t have it both ways dude. Either there is another option you can consider, or alternatively tormentor accomplished things beyond the scope of anything in this game and is therefore a valid nerf target.
You gotta pick one. I personally think it’s the latter.
It absolutely did accomplish something no other tanking set did for normal dungeons: it elevated tanks out of being absolutely superfluous in normal difficulty scenarios (other than making the queue pop for the dps). But I do not consider that a valid nerfing goal.2 -
Galeriano✭✭✭✭✭
✭Techwolf_Lupindo wrote: »That set is the only set a Tank Werewolf can use. This is another gutting of the werewolf class.
There is also a swarm mother.0 -
Galeriano✭✭✭✭✭
✭Araneae6537 wrote: »I am sure that set was fun for some, but it's really not necessary to be an efficient tank. You taunt things that are dangerous and use various means of cc for the rest. It takes very little effort from the tank, especially using void bash like some have mentioned already.
So since Tormenter is not overpowered, being far from meta, certainly not necessary, why does it need to be effectively deleted??? Tanking is my least preferred role if I have to deal with mobs, it’s just not at all fun for me, unless I can charge in and aggro a bunch that way, that’s actually fun. Again, not meta and even suicidal in difficult content, but made it more likely for those of us who tank casually to queue for the easier pledges or a random normal, which seems like a good thing for everyone.
People have this wierd idea that if something is not a meta and is not being used in top runs than it's completly fine. It's not always the case. Fact that tormentor was not being used in top runs doesn't mean it was not breakinbg one of the fundamental rules existing in ESO when it comes to aggroing enemies.
Lots of people claim that this set was great for tanks but You know for whom it was even greater? For fake tanks. Friend of my is fake tanking vet dungeons with it just by backbaring that set. After zipping around with stampede two or three times he will just swap to front bar and continue DD rotation.1 -
Skyrghren✭✭Araneae6537 wrote: »I am sure that set was fun for some, but it's really not necessary to be an efficient tank. You taunt things that are dangerous and use various means of cc for the rest. It takes very little effort from the tank, especially using void bash like some have mentioned already.
So since Tormenter is not overpowered, being far from meta, certainly not necessary, why does it need to be effectively deleted??? Tanking is my least preferred role if I have to deal with mobs, it’s just not at all fun for me, unless I can charge in and aggro a bunch that way, that’s actually fun. Again, not meta and even suicidal in difficult content, but made it more likely for those of us who tank casually to queue for the easier pledges or a random normal, which seems like a good thing for everyone.
People have this wierd idea that if something is not a meta and is not being used in top runs than it's completly fine. It's not always the case. Fact that tormentor was not being used in top runs doesn't mean it was not breakinbg one of the fundamental rules existing in ESO when it comes to aggroing enemies.
Lots of people claim that this set was great for tanks but You know for whom it was even greater? For fake tanks. Friend of my is fake tanking vet dungeons with it just by backbaring that set. After zipping around with stampede two or three times he will just swap to front bar and continue DD rotation.
Isn't that just tanking? I wish all fake tanks did that much actual tanking. If vets can be tanked by a dps with a taunt of any kind, is that a problem with the tanking style or the game balance in vets? Game balance in normals is a long-lost battle, I've accepted that, but is balancing vets really best done by basically making taunting a menial chore? I am still not quite sure what ESO actually wants from tanks: spend all their time chasing every single add with a taunt? Be a group buff on legs taunting only the biggest thing in the room and then try to catch up before the group has finished the next boss? It feels like the tanking role is this grudgingly accepted ballast that is allowed to hold down a boss every once in a while but if it doesn't come at least with two gear sets of additional buffs for the real players, any dps with a taunt would be better for the bottom line.4 -
Galeriano✭✭✭✭✭
✭Araneae6537 wrote: »I am sure that set was fun for some, but it's really not necessary to be an efficient tank. You taunt things that are dangerous and use various means of cc for the rest. It takes very little effort from the tank, especially using void bash like some have mentioned already.
So since Tormenter is not overpowered, being far from meta, certainly not necessary, why does it need to be effectively deleted??? Tanking is my least preferred role if I have to deal with mobs, it’s just not at all fun for me, unless I can charge in and aggro a bunch that way, that’s actually fun. Again, not meta and even suicidal in difficult content, but made it more likely for those of us who tank casually to queue for the easier pledges or a random normal, which seems like a good thing for everyone.
People have this wierd idea that if something is not a meta and is not being used in top runs than it's completly fine. It's not always the case. Fact that tormentor was not being used in top runs doesn't mean it was not breakinbg one of the fundamental rules existing in ESO when it comes to aggroing enemies.
Lots of people claim that this set was great for tanks but You know for whom it was even greater? For fake tanks. Friend of my is fake tanking vet dungeons with it just by backbaring that set. After zipping around with stampede two or three times he will just swap to front bar and continue DD rotation.
Isn't that just tanking? I wish all fake tanks did that much actual tanking. If vets can be tanked by a dps with a taunt of any kind, is that a problem with the tanking style or the game balance in vets? Game balance in normals is a long-lost battle, I've accepted that, but is balancing vets really best done by basically making taunting a menial chore? I am still not quite sure what ESO actually wants from tanks: spend all their time chasing every single add with a taunt? Be a group buff on legs taunting only the biggest thing in the room and then try to catch up before the group has finished the next boss? It feels like the tanking role is this grudgingly accepted ballast that is allowed to hold down a boss every once in a while but if it doesn't come at least with two gear sets of additional buffs for the real players, any dps with a taunt would be better for the bottom line.
Well if all tank does in every fight can be watered down to using 1 ability 2-3 times per fight it's becoming a bit silly. It goes for both real and fake tanks. Also where is the line between tanking and being a fake tank? Any setup that will have taunt is a full blown tank? So basically If I bring a DD Dk into a dungeons with chains slotted I am a real tank now?
As for what game want from tanks I would say it's pretty clear. Agro all mobs, keep them together debuff them and buff allies while surviving incoming damage. You're given plenty of tools to do it all effectively. There is plenty of things that allows to do multiple tasks of tank at once. For example single target pull abilities also work as range taunts, Many usefull abilities like AoE control or taunts have some debuffs as secondary effects. There are sets that buff the group that proc of taunt, taking dmg or bash. You could go on and on with this. it's not like as a tank You need to meticulously thing about every single thing out of the list separately and focus on it. Sets like tormentor are actually making tanking dull and allow for lowering the need of having a real tank even more.Edited by Galeriano on February 18, 2024 3:40AM1 -
Daoin✭✭✭theres only one reason sometimes i second guess if i should use void bash in a dungeon is if i will have time to change my weapon and shield at the right stages before someone agro then im stuck with it on when something else would be much better for me there0
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BejaProphet✭✭✭✭✭
✭BejaProphet wrote: »BejaProphet wrote: »El_Borracho wrote: »I think Void Bash is a far better alternative to Tormentor, especially as it doesn't require a 5 piece set. I've never seen a tank use Tormentor in an organized raid, or Void Bash for that matter, as those are more popular in dungeons. But, to each their own
Void Bash can pull enemies in a certain radius every thirteen seconds. In a slow dungeon, that's enough to gather a small room once per pull.
With a tormie set, I can gather one aoe's worth of enemies every gcd., meaning I can zoom from add group to add group uninterrupted, and every single enemy I can tag will follow me to wherever I wanna stack them for fifteen seconds. No stragglers, no "hey there, tank, imma go seek out the one not yet loaded-in player standing still at the start while you run to the next boss hoping most adds will follow you". Tormie can gather area after area after area comprehensively, charge after charge after charge, and they are stuck on you for the whole taunt's duration and will keep following you blindly. With void bash, a small selection of adds are temporarily relocated and then go back to doing their own thing immediately and that only every 13 seconds.
You just explained the reason for the nerf.
So that the three tanks total who use it in normals don't get uppity and develop ideas above their station? Can't have them disturb the dps currently soloing the dungeon.
You gave a detailed explanation of how nothing in the game can do what tormentors does then you play dumb with me when I point that out?
You can’t have it both ways dude. Either there is another option you can consider, or alternatively tormentor accomplished things beyond the scope of anything in this game and is therefore a valid nerf target.
You gotta pick one. I personally think it’s the latter.
It absolutely did accomplish something no other tanking set did for normal dungeons: it elevated tanks out of being absolutely superfluous in normal difficulty scenarios (other than making the queue pop for the dps). But I do not consider that a valid nerfing goal.
Why not just move up to veteran content where tanks are needed?Royal Poet's Dungeon Tanking Guide https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/416797/royal-poets-guide-to-traditional-tanking-in-veteran-dungeons#latest1 -
Skyrghren✭✭BejaProphet wrote: »BejaProphet wrote: »BejaProphet wrote: »El_Borracho wrote: »I think Void Bash is a far better alternative to Tormentor, especially as it doesn't require a 5 piece set. I've never seen a tank use Tormentor in an organized raid, or Void Bash for that matter, as those are more popular in dungeons. But, to each their own
Void Bash can pull enemies in a certain radius every thirteen seconds. In a slow dungeon, that's enough to gather a small room once per pull.
With a tormie set, I can gather one aoe's worth of enemies every gcd., meaning I can zoom from add group to add group uninterrupted, and every single enemy I can tag will follow me to wherever I wanna stack them for fifteen seconds. No stragglers, no "hey there, tank, imma go seek out the one not yet loaded-in player standing still at the start while you run to the next boss hoping most adds will follow you". Tormie can gather area after area after area comprehensively, charge after charge after charge, and they are stuck on you for the whole taunt's duration and will keep following you blindly. With void bash, a small selection of adds are temporarily relocated and then go back to doing their own thing immediately and that only every 13 seconds.
You just explained the reason for the nerf.
So that the three tanks total who use it in normals don't get uppity and develop ideas above their station? Can't have them disturb the dps currently soloing the dungeon.
You gave a detailed explanation of how nothing in the game can do what tormentors does then you play dumb with me when I point that out?
You can’t have it both ways dude. Either there is another option you can consider, or alternatively tormentor accomplished things beyond the scope of anything in this game and is therefore a valid nerf target.
You gotta pick one. I personally think it’s the latter.
It absolutely did accomplish something no other tanking set did for normal dungeons: it elevated tanks out of being absolutely superfluous in normal difficulty scenarios (other than making the queue pop for the dps). But I do not consider that a valid nerfing goal.
Why not just move up to veteran content where tanks are needed?
Becaue on a good day, there are like two and a half people queueing for vet at any given time while the normal queues are overflowing (exclusively with dps and fake tank/heals, but at least the numbers are there).0 -
Skyrghren✭✭
Well if all tank does in every fight can be watered down to using 1 ability 2-3 times per fight it's becoming a bit silly.
We are in agreement there. I would prefer it if dungeons did not mainly consist of something to do for the dps while the tank is basically only needed for using an ability three times per dungeon (but honestly, everybody would be fine even without that anyway), but that is the status of the average normal dungeon experience and with the tormentor set, i can have at least a little fun while actually trying to tank.
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BejaProphet✭✭✭✭✭
✭BejaProphet wrote: »BejaProphet wrote: »BejaProphet wrote: »El_Borracho wrote: »I think Void Bash is a far better alternative to Tormentor, especially as it doesn't require a 5 piece set. I've never seen a tank use Tormentor in an organized raid, or Void Bash for that matter, as those are more popular in dungeons. But, to each their own
Void Bash can pull enemies in a certain radius every thirteen seconds. In a slow dungeon, that's enough to gather a small room once per pull.
With a tormie set, I can gather one aoe's worth of enemies every gcd., meaning I can zoom from add group to add group uninterrupted, and every single enemy I can tag will follow me to wherever I wanna stack them for fifteen seconds. No stragglers, no "hey there, tank, imma go seek out the one not yet loaded-in player standing still at the start while you run to the next boss hoping most adds will follow you". Tormie can gather area after area after area comprehensively, charge after charge after charge, and they are stuck on you for the whole taunt's duration and will keep following you blindly. With void bash, a small selection of adds are temporarily relocated and then go back to doing their own thing immediately and that only every 13 seconds.
You just explained the reason for the nerf.
So that the three tanks total who use it in normals don't get uppity and develop ideas above their station? Can't have them disturb the dps currently soloing the dungeon.
You gave a detailed explanation of how nothing in the game can do what tormentors does then you play dumb with me when I point that out?
You can’t have it both ways dude. Either there is another option you can consider, or alternatively tormentor accomplished things beyond the scope of anything in this game and is therefore a valid nerf target.
You gotta pick one. I personally think it’s the latter.
It absolutely did accomplish something no other tanking set did for normal dungeons: it elevated tanks out of being absolutely superfluous in normal difficulty scenarios (other than making the queue pop for the dps). But I do not consider that a valid nerfing goal.
Why not just move up to veteran content where tanks are needed?
Becaue on a good day, there are like two and a half people queueing for vet at any given time while the normal queues are overflowing (exclusively with dps and fake tank/heals, but at least the numbers are there).
Now you are just saying something for the sake of saying something. There are tons of people running vet dungeons. I run them constantly and I go all day without seeing the same name twice.
So what’s the real reason you don’t just man up and do harder content? That’s where tanks are needed. If you go to a delve don’t be surprised that nobody waits for you to tank there either.Royal Poet's Dungeon Tanking Guide https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/416797/royal-poets-guide-to-traditional-tanking-in-veteran-dungeons#latest2 -
Skyrghren✭✭BejaProphet wrote: »BejaProphet wrote: »BejaProphet wrote: »BejaProphet wrote: »El_Borracho wrote: »I think Void Bash is a far better alternative to Tormentor, especially as it doesn't require a 5 piece set. I've never seen a tank use Tormentor in an organized raid, or Void Bash for that matter, as those are more popular in dungeons. But, to each their own
Void Bash can pull enemies in a certain radius every thirteen seconds. In a slow dungeon, that's enough to gather a small room once per pull.
With a tormie set, I can gather one aoe's worth of enemies every gcd., meaning I can zoom from add group to add group uninterrupted, and every single enemy I can tag will follow me to wherever I wanna stack them for fifteen seconds. No stragglers, no "hey there, tank, imma go seek out the one not yet loaded-in player standing still at the start while you run to the next boss hoping most adds will follow you". Tormie can gather area after area after area comprehensively, charge after charge after charge, and they are stuck on you for the whole taunt's duration and will keep following you blindly. With void bash, a small selection of adds are temporarily relocated and then go back to doing their own thing immediately and that only every 13 seconds.
You just explained the reason for the nerf.
So that the three tanks total who use it in normals don't get uppity and develop ideas above their station? Can't have them disturb the dps currently soloing the dungeon.
You gave a detailed explanation of how nothing in the game can do what tormentors does then you play dumb with me when I point that out?
You can’t have it both ways dude. Either there is another option you can consider, or alternatively tormentor accomplished things beyond the scope of anything in this game and is therefore a valid nerf target.
You gotta pick one. I personally think it’s the latter.
It absolutely did accomplish something no other tanking set did for normal dungeons: it elevated tanks out of being absolutely superfluous in normal difficulty scenarios (other than making the queue pop for the dps). But I do not consider that a valid nerfing goal.
Why not just move up to veteran content where tanks are needed?
Becaue on a good day, there are like two and a half people queueing for vet at any given time while the normal queues are overflowing (exclusively with dps and fake tank/heals, but at least the numbers are there).
Now you are just saying something for the sake of saying something. There are tons of people running vet dungeons. I run them constantly and I go all day without seeing the same name twice.
So what’s the real reason you don’t just man up and do harder content? That’s where tanks are needed. If you go to a delve don’t be surprised that nobody waits for you to tank there either.
When I queue , my process is usually to enter the queue for whatever I wanna run in vet, wait a minute and then settle for a rnd or do something else. Normal queues just pop almost instantly for tanks at most times, vet not so much.
Is that man enough for you or shall I grunt a bit?0 -
BejaProphet✭✭✭✭✭
✭BejaProphet wrote: »BejaProphet wrote: »BejaProphet wrote: »BejaProphet wrote: »El_Borracho wrote: »I think Void Bash is a far better alternative to Tormentor, especially as it doesn't require a 5 piece set. I've never seen a tank use Tormentor in an organized raid, or Void Bash for that matter, as those are more popular in dungeons. But, to each their own
Void Bash can pull enemies in a certain radius every thirteen seconds. In a slow dungeon, that's enough to gather a small room once per pull.
With a tormie set, I can gather one aoe's worth of enemies every gcd., meaning I can zoom from add group to add group uninterrupted, and every single enemy I can tag will follow me to wherever I wanna stack them for fifteen seconds. No stragglers, no "hey there, tank, imma go seek out the one not yet loaded-in player standing still at the start while you run to the next boss hoping most adds will follow you". Tormie can gather area after area after area comprehensively, charge after charge after charge, and they are stuck on you for the whole taunt's duration and will keep following you blindly. With void bash, a small selection of adds are temporarily relocated and then go back to doing their own thing immediately and that only every 13 seconds.
You just explained the reason for the nerf.
So that the three tanks total who use it in normals don't get uppity and develop ideas above their station? Can't have them disturb the dps currently soloing the dungeon.
You gave a detailed explanation of how nothing in the game can do what tormentors does then you play dumb with me when I point that out?
You can’t have it both ways dude. Either there is another option you can consider, or alternatively tormentor accomplished things beyond the scope of anything in this game and is therefore a valid nerf target.
You gotta pick one. I personally think it’s the latter.
It absolutely did accomplish something no other tanking set did for normal dungeons: it elevated tanks out of being absolutely superfluous in normal difficulty scenarios (other than making the queue pop for the dps). But I do not consider that a valid nerfing goal.
Why not just move up to veteran content where tanks are needed?
Becaue on a good day, there are like two and a half people queueing for vet at any given time while the normal queues are overflowing (exclusively with dps and fake tank/heals, but at least the numbers are there).
Now you are just saying something for the sake of saying something. There are tons of people running vet dungeons. I run them constantly and I go all day without seeing the same name twice.
So what’s the real reason you don’t just man up and do harder content? That’s where tanks are needed. If you go to a delve don’t be surprised that nobody waits for you to tank there either.
When I queue , my process is usually to enter the queue for whatever I wanna run in vet, wait a minute and then settle for a rnd or do something else. Normal queues just pop almost instantly for tanks at most times, vet not so much.
Is that man enough for you or shall I grunt a bit?
I really have a hard time believing this. If I hit random vet as a tank it is usually an instant ready message. But no it’s not manly enough for me. You will never find a group that lets a tank be a tank in normals. If you do, it will be the exception that proves the rule. And what you want ZOS to preserve for the sake of trying to make you feel useful, is something I can take into vet DLC’s and accomplish things no other tank can. My main character for 2 years was a tormentor templar tank. I know what that set can do. And it’s flat out unfair that I could do it.
You trying to feel useful in a normal dungeons is not grounds to keep it.
Edit note: I mean to say what no other tank can…except another templar tormentor, because the set is design breaking.Edited by BejaProphet on February 18, 2024 9:37PMRoyal Poet's Dungeon Tanking Guide https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/416797/royal-poets-guide-to-traditional-tanking-in-veteran-dungeons#latest2 -
Skyrghren✭✭BejaProphet wrote: »BejaProphet wrote: »BejaProphet wrote: »BejaProphet wrote: »BejaProphet wrote: »El_Borracho wrote: »I think Void Bash is a far better alternative to Tormentor, especially as it doesn't require a 5 piece set. I've never seen a tank use Tormentor in an organized raid, or Void Bash for that matter, as those are more popular in dungeons. But, to each their own
Void Bash can pull enemies in a certain radius every thirteen seconds. In a slow dungeon, that's enough to gather a small room once per pull.
With a tormie set, I can gather one aoe's worth of enemies every gcd., meaning I can zoom from add group to add group uninterrupted, and every single enemy I can tag will follow me to wherever I wanna stack them for fifteen seconds. No stragglers, no "hey there, tank, imma go seek out the one not yet loaded-in player standing still at the start while you run to the next boss hoping most adds will follow you". Tormie can gather area after area after area comprehensively, charge after charge after charge, and they are stuck on you for the whole taunt's duration and will keep following you blindly. With void bash, a small selection of adds are temporarily relocated and then go back to doing their own thing immediately and that only every 13 seconds.
You just explained the reason for the nerf.
So that the three tanks total who use it in normals don't get uppity and develop ideas above their station? Can't have them disturb the dps currently soloing the dungeon.
You gave a detailed explanation of how nothing in the game can do what tormentors does then you play dumb with me when I point that out?
You can’t have it both ways dude. Either there is another option you can consider, or alternatively tormentor accomplished things beyond the scope of anything in this game and is therefore a valid nerf target.
You gotta pick one. I personally think it’s the latter.
It absolutely did accomplish something no other tanking set did for normal dungeons: it elevated tanks out of being absolutely superfluous in normal difficulty scenarios (other than making the queue pop for the dps). But I do not consider that a valid nerfing goal.
Why not just move up to veteran content where tanks are needed?
Becaue on a good day, there are like two and a half people queueing for vet at any given time while the normal queues are overflowing (exclusively with dps and fake tank/heals, but at least the numbers are there).
Now you are just saying something for the sake of saying something. There are tons of people running vet dungeons. I run them constantly and I go all day without seeing the same name twice.
So what’s the real reason you don’t just man up and do harder content? That’s where tanks are needed. If you go to a delve don’t be surprised that nobody waits for you to tank there either.
When I queue , my process is usually to enter the queue for whatever I wanna run in vet, wait a minute and then settle for a rnd or do something else. Normal queues just pop almost instantly for tanks at most times, vet not so much.
Is that man enough for you or shall I grunt a bit?
I really have a hard time believing this. If I hit random vet as a tank it is usually an instant ready message. But no it’s not manly enough for me. You will never find a group that lets a tank be a tank in normals. If you do, it will be the exception that proves the rule. And what you want ZOS to preserve for the sake of trying to make you feel useful, is something I can take into vet DLC’s and accomplish things no other tank can. My main character for 2 years was a tormentor templar tank. I know what that set can do. And it’s flat out unfair that I could do it.
You trying to feel useful in a normal dungeons is not grounds to keep it.
Edit note: I mean to say what no other tank can…except another templar tormentor, because the set is design breaking.
I am terribly sorry that I do not meet your manliness criteria and I promise that if I ever start to care about your standards, that will be the first thing I'll get around to, but in the meantime: I've had days where even queueing as a tank WITH a healer buddy, we couldn't find a vet group for the pledges. That should make the pop not just instantaneous, but retroactive. That queue should pop before we even queue, yet there were times when it did not. I wish it weren't so, but here we are.
Regarding normals, I can actually outtank the dps in normals in a tormentor, I can have a pull on me before the dps have burst down everything in the vicinity. And yes, I am aware that a tank actually being effective in a normal is the extreme exception in eso, which is why I find it sad that tanks in normals will be nerfed into uselessness across the board. In fact, I'd readily accept that, IF the stupid group finder system didn't pretend that normal dungeons require a tank. In general, they do not. Let me get a reasonably timed queue pop in normals while specced as a role that is not entirely useless in that dungeon type and I'll be happy as a clam. If four dps could trigger a normal dungeon, I would gladly take the loss of the aoe taunt.
But as it stands, you can either lie and get a fake tank pop or you can queue forever and wait for another fake tank to queue. The alternative is to queue as a proper tank (because group finder says you must, for some reason) and uselessly jog behind the players who actually get to do something.
Me feeling useful in a dungeon may not be grounds to make tanking engaging in normals, but maybe making the obligatory 25% of ALL dungeon players that will feel useless in a normal not feel entirely useless would have some positive effect on queues and dungeons in general.0 -
BejaProphet✭✭✭✭✭
✭Well maybe someday ZOS will find a cure for those epic tank wait times. One can hope. Good luck to you being heard.Royal Poet's Dungeon Tanking Guide https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/416797/royal-poets-guide-to-traditional-tanking-in-veteran-dungeons#latest0 -
Skyrghren✭✭BejaProphet wrote: »Well maybe someday ZOS will find a cure for those epic tank wait times. One can hope. Good luck to you being heard.
As I've written above, my problem aren't the tank wait times, it's mainly the uselessness of a required role in the more populated of the two difficulties.0
