Play the game correctly or how you enjoy it?

hamon · May 2014

i,m sorry to bang on about what i see as failings in vet mode , but i do so cos i love this game , or at least did till vet. For that reason i try to hopefully add my voice to the debate in the hopes zenimax see reason before it negatively affects the chances of the game flousishing.

now here's what i,m finding as a trend.. if you have chose to play your toon in a sub optimal fashion or use the less optimal build in getting to 50 you could do so and be viable and enjoy playing using the weapons and skills you find most satisfying.

As vet mode gets tougher it becomes apparent that is no longer the case. if you happen to be already using an optimal build then you probably are one of those who keep saying everything is fine. however if you arn't one of those folk you are faced with a stark reality. find the optimal build or die repeatedly till you end up not enjoying yourself. or as one person answered me earlier when i asked in game who was finding solo content grim.
to which they replied " get a partner to help" and this does indeed help vastly most solo content is extremely easy with 2 folk.. but isn't there a problem inherant when the best way to do SOLO content is to not be solo? I enjoy doing content with others a great deal but that isnt the point.

The problem I have with needing to find the optimal builds for the entire vet mode run is that it flies in the face of what zenimax wanted to create. which was to give us lots of freedom to play our classes with many weapons and skills to choose AND still be viable. ( note viable not optimal) everything can't be optimal but everything should be viable. if you choose to play using the most optimal build and weapon yes some content should be pretty easy , but thats the reward for playing optimally. But if everyone gets forced to drop the weapons and playstyle of their choice or be pretty much unviable then you have a problem. folk either quit as they are now using a weapon they dislike or everyone ends up as cookie cutters of each other ... that isnt healthy for the game.

i'm being forced to look for more optimal ways to do things but its frustrating cos i enjoyed using my bow for example lots before vet.. now its useless apart from a few occasions (kiting solo melee elites for example)
i hope they look at this, cos long term vet mode is bad for the game as it stands imo.

SirAndy · May 2014

The grammar *** in me is screaming right now but to answer your question, it greatly depends on what your goal is in this game.

I have 3 main characters, one in each faction. I want to be able to experience each faction from the bottom up by going through the content at the normal leveling pace.

One of the 3 is geared towards PvP and will run all the way through the VR ranks. If at any point i feel like the build won't be competitive in VR or PvP (so far so good), i have no trouble respecing that character to fit the goal better.

The other two probably won't ever see the VR ranks, but that's OK with me ...
;-)

Coggage · May 2014

My aim in any game I play is to enjoy myself. I have no interest in what anyone else would think of my playing style. Their opinion means nothing to me.

nhisso · May 2014

Coggage wrote: »

My aim in any game I play is to enjoy myself. I have no interest in what anyone else would think of my playing style. Their opinion means nothing to me.

Wow. NOT what the topic is about...
Yeah, TC. I fear the VR phase of play because only one of my characters is really spec'd the "correct" way. The rest are made to suit my wants. I've heard oh-so many people echoing exactly what yous said; that it's very hard to run VR content if you aren't spec'd a certain way. However, there are class tweaks coming in upcoming patches, so this could change.

Blackhorne · May 2014

In any game where the content difficulty actually increases and there is meaningful distinction between builds, the number of viable builds will diminish as the game progresses. This is because the increased difficulty of the content amplifies the disparities between builds.

In a game this complex, it is not feasible to balance even two different builds such that their effectiveness remains constant with each other throughout all content, let alone the more than 7x10^50 possible builds if you consider Class, Weapon, and Armor skill points alone, not even considering world, racial, or crafting skills, or attribute points.

There have not been enough characters created to determine all viable builds throughout the game, let alone the optimal builds for each class.

Niminion · May 2014

There IS one correct way to play the game and it has nothing to do with stats or builds. That is move, block, dodge, interrupt, and kill healers, casters, archers, rogues, tanks, in that order.

There are no "optimal" builds yet, everyones stats are are wildly different from each other not even counting morphs, passives, racials, etc. There is also still this whole "stack health" and "avoid soft caps!" misinformation, that I think is hurting people in VR content.

I use 4-5 different builds in VR content to experiment and have fun, I roll with around 1500 health and light or medium armor with no problems. My magika or stamina values are always heavily overcharged. I only wear dropped armor currently to cut down on repairs. For me leveling in VR zones I think it is the best mmo pve leveling I have done in awhile.

Coggage · May 2014

nhisso wrote: »

Coggage wrote: »

My aim in any game I play is to enjoy myself. I have no interest in what anyone else would think of my playing style. Their opinion means nothing to me.

Wow. NOT what the topic is about...

The OP mentioned "optimal builds", the inference being people may wonder why some other player doesn't go for the optimal build. Some players actually criticise other players who don't go "optimal", and I've had it happen in other games. I gave my reasons for playing the way I do, and if you don't like it, you can lump it.

Selstad · May 2014

I've died several times in Veteran Mode, but only once have I found a quest that I couldn't do alone, and I found someone to team up with on that one occasion. Also for the public dungeons I've done it alongside a friend.

I think that veteran content is working, and I can't say that I've found something that's "optimal", and I've tossed around several ideas and several builds on my sorcerer. And dam have I died, I've died more times than I care to count, but what I've found is that you need to think tactical, and you don't have to fight every fight either, sneaking around enemies is a very viable option.

My biggest problem is when there are physical damage in form of arrows, though I've found a viable tactic that works by locking the melee character while I zerg down the archer. And I have not followed any guides online, haven't had someone build the setup I have for me. I tried that, and it didn't work for me. So I experiment a lot to find the best solution to survive the content.

I therefore don't think there are any optimal solution in this game, there are several viable options to get you moving. I've found my way on my sorcerer, I'm certain others have found their way, heck, I see other sorcerers out there doing it their way. It's not like WoW where there's 1 build with 1 gear setup and 1 way to do it because some theory crafter figured out that that one build was marginal better than any other, and if you don't use that one, you're a bad player. No, this game invites you to build your own build. It's very open, much like The secret world. In that game I ended up running around with a couple of pistols and a sword. Loved that combination, though, others ran around with other combinations. That's choice for you, that's freedom. What limitations you put on yourself is your problem and not the developer's.

Nox_Aeterna · May 2014

OP , what i want , is that atleast they keep thing within the class level.

So all classes have atleast one built that is able to get the job done. Maybe it is not the build you would enjoy playing , BUT the CLASS got a build that puts it on par with the other classes.

That is not how the game works currently , clearly some classes are better at some tasks , and dont matter if you do your best within your class , you will not reach the other supremacy on it.

So i want them to balance it enough , that being class X wont be a deciding factor on what you can or not do.

reggielee · May 2014

if youre talking about the diff class disparities then yes, there could be a problem. but if its just learning to respec or switch around your abilities in order to match the current challenges facing your character then no. thats half the fun, figuring out what works in what zone, area, boss encounter

Alurria · May 2014

Some good info here, just realize adapting is the freedom you have to play this game. For example in other games you have one optimal build through out the game, here it is flexible. You have to learn to adapt. That is the freedom. I know you like your bow, but maybe for now you will have to use it less. And as blackhorne says as the difficulty increases. Choice is very much a part of the game. Play around with your character a bit, respec, or try different combos.

It's not a technical answer, I'm not good at those. I tend to weigh skills and passives etc as I go. So far I'm happy with my build. If I have to change later when I reach vet levels I will, and maybe after that switch back to my favored build.

If there is a problem with bow scaling make sure you provide feedback in game good luck!

PBpsy · May 2014

There are many VR viable builds for all classes. I have seen some Nightblades go trough VR content with skills I wouldn't even think about. I have done VR content with 3 very different NB builds and it worked. The problem is not so much the lack of viable builds is the unwillingness of some players to find the best approach for some particular build in different circumstances.

There is also the fact that some people have a very narrow definition of the way they want to play. If your idea of the way you want to play is to always have the same 6 stupid skills in the tab from level 1 to VR 10 than you have a really boring way you want to play. . If on the other hand you have a larger scope definition of what you want to do this game delivers. What I mainly want to play is a stealthy crit based assassin that can engage and disengage quickly and deal with larger groups by being able to kill them one by one fast . I have manged to fit that way of playing using multiple 6 skill sets suited for different situation. I have also played a NB mage in VR that more or less tanked and AOEd .I have also played a light tank DW kind of build where I was balancing bps with survivability and kept fights manageable.

This game allows you to play in many different ways with all the classes but for VR your desired play-style must have a larger scope than just using 6 skills and you also have to be flexible in how you approach different situations.

Draconiuos · May 2014

I guess I will say this here too, since these threads seem to be the topic of the day. A lot of players just aren't placing their stat points in the right areas for their builds. If you are going to really on your class skills you have to realize they are Magicka based and you need points in Magicka to help keep their damage in line with the content. The same thing goes if you are trying to use a stamina heavy based build.

I don't how many times in starting zones I have heard people say they read online that you should put all your stat points into health. All that does is make it take longer until you die.

Blackhorne · May 2014

Niminion wrote: »

There IS one correct way to play the game and it has nothing to do with stats or builds. That is move, block, dodge, interrupt, and kill healers, casters, archers, rogues, tanks, in that order.

^^^^THIS^^^^

JosephChip · May 2014

nhisso wrote: »

Coggage wrote: »

My aim in any game I play is to enjoy myself. I have no interest in what anyone else would think of my playing style. Their opinion means nothing to me.

Wow. NOT what the topic is about...
Yeah, TC. I fear the VR phase of play because only one of my characters is really spec'd the "correct" way. The rest are made to suit my wants. I've heard oh-so many people echoing exactly what yous said; that it's very hard to run VR content if you aren't spec'd a certain way. However, there are class tweaks coming in upcoming patches, so this could change.

Man, you are basically asking for all the content in this game to be balanced in a way that even a sub-par and badly designed build, or any build you can think of, would be able to make it through. This goes against making the content challenging, which is what a lot of people are asking for. I understand your feeling, but this is simply unrealistic. You can't design a game in such a way that, no matter how anyone plays it, it will be fun, challenging and satisfying. This game doesn't exist and never will.
This also counts for all the people complaining about how their personal style of play isn't viable here and there. Content has to be designed a certain way, and that way will never please everyone. There is just no way you can create a boss fight that is exactly enjoyable, challenging and rewarding for every single spec and every single class in the game. Uless you create something that adapts dinamically, which is of course crazy talk.

Now the fact that some specific specs are so much better than others that they almost appear mandatory is obviously an issue that needs to be looked into. As you said they are tweaking classes and I am sure they are actively trying to balance their game.

Let's not even talk about people who are just bad players and put the blame on the developers.

Draconiuos wrote: »

I don't how many times in starting zones I have heard people say they read online that you should put all your stat points into health. All that does is make it take longer until you die.

I feel like clarifying this: those people mean that it is beneficial, at 50, to put every point in health and using gear to cap your magicka. Which is spot on. With the right combination of race, passives and gear you can easily cap magicka and spend your points on health, the only stat that is increased by 15 for every point.
This means that you should not do this if you do not have the right gear or you are underleveled.

Allyah · May 2014

SirAndy wrote: »

The grammar *** in me is screaming right now[...]

My eyes felt like they were bleeding and my brain froze in fear.

Mortelus · May 2014

Blackhorne wrote: »

In any game where the content difficulty actually increases and there is meaningful distinction between builds, the number of viable builds will diminish as the game progresses. This is because the increased difficulty of the content amplifies the disparities between builds.

In a game this complex, it is not feasible to balance even two different builds such that their effectiveness remains constant with each other throughout all content, let alone the more than 7x10^50 possible builds if you consider Class, Weapon, and Armor skill points alone, not even considering world, racial, or crafting skills, or attribute points.

There have not been enough characters created to determine all viable builds throughout the game, let alone the optimal builds for each class.

As true as this maybe, it is a moot point. Zeni says 'play how you want'. From what I have heard, my archer NB is going to be useless in VR levels. Meaning I cannot play how I want.

And as for classes, Demon Souls is Hard, way harder than this game is. Yet every class can complete the game with a little effort.

If I get to VR level and my bowmen is dying and I am unable to realistically enjoy the experience because it is too weak a class, then to me, that is not a proper design, more a design fault.

Every class should be able to cope at VR levels, sure some will be easier, some tougher, but ALL can have an enjoyable experience, not a death fest!

badmojo · May 2014

My tailor is a Khajit, I tried to run her around at level 3 with no weapons and promptly got my butt kicked. It was fun trying to play unarmed melee, but I conceded and played the game correctly with daggers.

There's more than one or two ways to play this game, but that doesn't mean every way you can think up is going to be valid.

hamon · May 2014

JosephChip wrote: »

nhisso wrote: »

Coggage wrote: »

My aim in any game I play is to enjoy myself. I have no interest in what anyone else would think of my playing style. Their opinion means nothing to me.

Now the fact that some specific specs are so much better than others that they almost appear mandatory is obviously an issue that needs to be looked into. As you said they are tweaking classes and I am sure they are actively trying to balance their game.

Draconiuos wrote: »

yes this is my point and an inevitability of when the content is tweaked a little to hard. it works like the harder the content the less options you have in how you appraoch it. i raided in vanilla wow up till the first expansion , and you had to take molten core etc very seriously back then , you had to build very specificially and have stacks of fire resist etc.. you simply had no choice.

so if they tweaked down the hardess just a notch or 2 , ( not nerf it into the ground.) then more options builds and play styles become viable. hell you could even take the view that playing a sub-optimal build then becomes the challenging mode. rather than still use the most op build and burn thro it.

hell its easy to make the game more difficult all by yourself if all you guys who keep saying i love it uber hard cos i,m just so pro . you could only wear half armour for example "bang" you just made it that bit more difficult. however if its hard as heel cos you didnt role the OP class and enjoy the non OP weapon sets.. theres nothing you can do to make it easier except start looking at the forums for the FOTM cookie cutter builds to make it easier... thats kinda what i hoped zenimax would avoid , at least for normal levelling content . fair enough for vet dungeons and raids in the future

Mortelus · May 2014

I understand every class will not be a strong as each other, however, my NB with it's broken class skills and being nerfed for ranged because of PvP makes an ARCHER practically useless at VR levels.

Sorry but a ranged archer should be one of the more basic classes in any MMO, I can understand people doing ridiculous things like running around without weapons, or building a light armour wearing tank, not being very viable.

But a ranged DPS archer, it's a basic common class in all MMO's I have ever played.

hamon · May 2014

Mortelus wrote: »

I understand every class will not be a strong as each other, however, my NB with it's broken class skills and being nerfed for ranged because of PvP makes an ARCHER practically useless at VR levels.

Sorry but a ranged archer should be one of the more basic classes in any MMO, I can understand people doing ridiculous things like running around without weapons, or building a light armour wearing tank, not being very viable.

But a ranged DPS archer, it's a basic common class in all MMO's I have ever played.

yes i favoured ranged dps in almost every game ive played , but hit vet content in ESO. sorry bin the bow unless its single target melee your fighting or die .. that cant be as intended imo. ranged dps (non caster) is a very popular way to play these games. usually the most popular class in any MMO.

JosephChip · May 2014

Mortelus wrote: »

I understand every class will not be a strong as each other, however, my NB with it's broken class skills and being nerfed for ranged because of PvP makes an ARCHER practically useless at VR levels.

Sorry but a ranged archer should be one of the more basic classes in any MMO, I can understand people doing ridiculous things like running around without weapons, or building a light armour wearing tank, not being very viable.

But a ranged DPS archer, it's a basic common class in all MMO's I have ever played.

If archers are underpowered it's a plain balance problem and will hopefully be addressed. Also, light armor wearing tanks are a thing in this game and they work very well.

Csub · May 2014

If I put only heals to both weapon slots and go unarmed, or better yet, if I don't equip new items or spend status/skill points and go unarmed cause that's how I want to play, can I also complain that the game is too hard and ZOS lied to me? pleaaaseee.

Mortelus · May 2014

Csub wrote: »

If I put only heals to both weapon slots and go unarmed, or better yet, if I don't equip new items or spend status/skill points and go unarmed cause that's how I want to play, can I also complain that the game is too hard and ZOS lied to me? pleaaaseee.

NO because this is idiotic.

Having a ranger archer class, that can not complete at the harder VR levels is a legitimate argument.

You are just being silly for the sake of creating an argument.

Allyah · May 2014

Mortelus wrote: »

Csub wrote: »

If I put only heals to both weapon slots and go unarmed, or better yet, if I don't equip new items or spend status/skill points and go unarmed cause that's how I want to play, can I also complain that the game is too hard and ZOS lied to me? pleaaaseee.

NO because this is idiotic.

Having a ranger archer class that can not complete compete at the harder VR levels is a legitimate argument.

Mortelus wrote: »

You are just being silly for the sake of creating an argument.

Or he made an argument while being silly. Perspective.

Csub · May 2014

Allyah wrote: »

Mortelus wrote: »

Csub wrote: »

If I put only heals to both weapon slots and go unarmed, or better yet, if I don't equip new items or spend status/skill points and go unarmed cause that's how I want to play, can I also complain that the game is too hard and ZOS lied to me? pleaaaseee.

NO because this is idiotic.

Having a ranger archer class that can not complete compete at the harder VR levels is a legitimate argument.

Mortelus wrote: »

You are just being silly for the sake of creating an argument.

Or he made an argument while being silly. Perspective.

I like your way of thinking!

But what I meant, is that if you take everything literally, you're going to have a hard/bad time, not just in this game but in general. I think it is obvious that there are limits but the fact that you can have a gazillion of viable builds makes up for that limit. Especially so if we consider that this is true for the class roles: you can tank ad a mage, heal as a NB, or cast stuff as a melee.

Mortelus · May 2014

Csub wrote: »

Allyah wrote: »

Mortelus wrote: »

Csub wrote: »

If I put only heals to both weapon slots and go unarmed, or better yet, if I don't equip new items or spend status/skill points and go unarmed cause that's how I want to play, can I also complain that the game is too hard and ZOS lied to me? pleaaaseee.

NO because this is idiotic.

Having a ranger archer class that can not complete compete at the harder VR levels is a legitimate argument.

Mortelus wrote: »

You are just being silly for the sake of creating an argument.

Or he made an argument while being silly. Perspective.

I like your way of thinking!

But what I meant, is that if you take everything literally, you're going to have a hard/bad time, not just in this game but in general. I think it is obvious that there are limits, but the fact that you can have a gazillion of viable builds makes up for that limit. Especially so if we consider that this is true for the class roles: you can tank ad (as) a mage, heal as a NB, or cast stuff as a melee.

Thanks for picking up on my error of using complete instead of compete. I edited your post for you as well

Yes you can play many classes the way you want, Just not a NB archer. I can however be completely OP by using a scorcerer as an archer. Makes sense I guess. Robin Hood was clearly a worse bowmen than Harry Potter.

Allyah · May 2014

@Mortelus‌
I'm the one who edited it. I also removed a comma for you.

Mortelus · May 2014

Allyah wrote: »

Mortelus wrote: »

Csub wrote: »

If I put only heals to both weapon slots and go unarmed, or better yet, if I don't equip new items or spend status/skill points and go unarmed cause that's how I want to play, can I also complain that the game is too hard and ZOS lied to me? pleaaaseee.

NO because this is idiotic.

Having a ranger archer class that can not complete compete at the harder VR levels is a legitimate argument.

Mortelus wrote: »

You are just being silly for the sake of creating an argument.

Or he made an argument while being silly. Perspective.

Your point being @Allyah ?

Allyah wrote: »

@Mortelus‌
I'm the one who edited it. I also removed a comma for you.

Thank you wise one, and apologies to you Csub

Allyah · May 2014

Mortelus wrote: »

Allyah wrote: »

Mortelus wrote: »

Csub wrote: »

If I put only heals to both weapon slots and go unarmed, or better yet, if I don't equip new items or spend status/skill points and go unarmed cause that's how I want to play, can I also complain that the game is too hard and ZOS lied to me? pleaaaseee.

NO because this is idiotic.

Having a ranger archer class that can not complete compete at the harder VR levels is a legitimate argument.

Mortelus wrote: »

You are just being silly for the sake of creating an argument.

Or he made an argument while being silly. Perspective.

Your point being @Allyah ?

Just that. It's always good to keep perspective.

Mortelus wrote: »

Allyah wrote: »

@Mortelus‌
I'm the one who edited it. I also removed a comma for you.

Thank you wise one, and apologies to you Csub

It's no problem. I'm happy to help. Now bow down, puny mortal! J/k. Mostly.

Csub · May 2014

Mortelus wrote: »

Allyah wrote: »

Mortelus wrote: »

Csub wrote: »

If I put only heals to both weapon slots and go unarmed, or better yet, if I don't equip new items or spend status/skill points and go unarmed cause that's how I want to play, can I also complain that the game is too hard and ZOS lied to me? pleaaaseee.

NO because this is idiotic.

Having a ranger archer class that can not complete compete at the harder VR levels is a legitimate argument.

Mortelus wrote: »

You are just being silly for the sake of creating an argument.

Or he made an argument while being silly. Perspective.

Your point being @Allyah ?

Allyah wrote: »

@Mortelus‌
I'm the one who edited it. I also removed a comma for you.

Thank you wise one, and apologies to you Csub

Apologies accepted, I was surprised what was it all about till I saw the comment of Allyah

Oh and I wanted to add that ZOS only said that we can play pretty much any way we want, which is true. They never said, though, that each way will be as good to solo with as the next one. :P

However, about NB on VR content, I cannot say anything for 2 reasons: 1: I am not on VR level yet and 2: I am not a NB, but what I do know is that I have a guildmate, VR 9, who is a NB and enjoys it a lot, although I cannot say what kind of playstyle he is using.

I am also aware of the fact that NB is the most broken class at the moment which can make it harder to solo, but it is more like a bugfixing /balancing issue rather than playstyle.