I disagree. We are told what's expected from us at the end of the tutorial:

What do you think I should do next?
"The Keywright's Gallery opened doors to every corner of Tamriel. Places, I suspect, that desperately need a hero's aid.
This choice is yours to make. But wherever you choose to go, I'm sure adventure awaits. May the stars protect you." Norianwe

Just explore the chosen destination for a bit and you will find yourself something to do rather quick.

And there is definitely no need to bring back the coldharbour tutorial and forcing players to start the allegedly "main quest". The story of the 5 companions is a major quest-arc next to many others (daedric war being just one example for that). Everyone interested in a chronologial experience is already free to play it that way.

Braffin wrote: »

I disagree. We are told what's expected from us at the end of the tutorial:

What do you think I should do next?
"The Keywright's Gallery opened doors to every corner of Tamriel. Places, I suspect, that desperately need a hero's aid.
This choice is yours to make. But wherever you choose to go, I'm sure adventure awaits. May the stars protect you." Norianwe

Just explore the chosen destination for a bit and you will find yourself something to do rather quick.

And there is definitely no need to bring back the coldharbour tutorial and forcing players to start the allegedly "main quest". The story of the 5 companions is a major quest-arc next to many others (daedric war being just one example for that). Everyone interested in a chronologial experience is already free to play it that way.

Very strongly disagree with this. Frankly, ESO makes no sense at all without the main quest and becomes a listless, "pick up random quests" experience for new players in which nothing matters and you can enter into the middle of stories in which characters talk to you like they've known you years when you've only just met.

It is weird, alienating, and actually unpleasant to play -- it makes you feel you are either completely stupid as a player or that the game has some sort of chronic bug. The game becomes impossible to navigate, the world ends up feeling empty and completely random (why are strange black chains dropping down from the sky, why is everyone calling me vestige, why is this person talking to me in gibberish about something I have never done), and it very rapidly leads new players to drop the game and play something that is both more fun and better designed.

The game, at a bare minimum, needs to explain to players -- in real world language -- that the main quest exists, is designed to get them to level 50, and where to go to find it. Without it, literally all the zones in the original base game *do not make sense*, and none of the chapter stories provide any kind of introduction to the wider game world. I started in Morrowind, did the Morrowind story (which felt weird -- it does not work as the first story of a new player) and then arrived in the broader world to find... Nothing.

Without a proper narrative structure, ESO, narratively, is plain not a good game. That was what the main quest was designed to provide and it does it pretty well. It needs to be presented to new players in flashing lights.

Braffin wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

I disagree. We are told what's expected from us at the end of the tutorial:

What do you think I should do next?
"The Keywright's Gallery opened doors to every corner of Tamriel. Places, I suspect, that desperately need a hero's aid.
This choice is yours to make. But wherever you choose to go, I'm sure adventure awaits. May the stars protect you." Norianwe

Just explore the chosen destination for a bit and you will find yourself something to do rather quick.

And there is definitely no need to bring back the coldharbour tutorial and forcing players to start the allegedly "main quest". The story of the 5 companions is a major quest-arc next to many others (daedric war being just one example for that). Everyone interested in a chronologial experience is already free to play it that way.

Very strongly disagree with this. Frankly, ESO makes no sense at all without the main quest and becomes a listless, "pick up random quests" experience for new players in which nothing matters and you can enter into the middle of stories in which characters talk to you like they've known you years when you've only just met.

It is weird, alienating, and actually unpleasant to play -- it makes you feel you are either completely stupid as a player or that the game has some sort of chronic bug. The game becomes impossible to navigate, the world ends up feeling empty and completely random (why are strange black chains dropping down from the sky, why is everyone calling me vestige, why is this person talking to me in gibberish about something I have never done), and it very rapidly leads new players to drop the game and play something that is both more fun and better designed.

The game, at a bare minimum, needs to explain to players -- in real world language -- that the main quest exists, is designed to get them to level 50, and where to go to find it. Without it, literally all the zones in the original base game *do not make sense*.

That's a bit much exaggeration, lol.

The "main quest" isn't necessary at all to play the original zones in a joyful manner. Just play the alliance zones in the correct order and you're good to go. In fact this zones have next to nothing to do with the story of the 5 companions.

I agree regarding the need of better explanations tho. I vote for sorting the "stories" tab in chronological order.

I quit the game twice because I could not understand what was going on. It's no exaggeration.

Nothing in the original zones tells you what the correct order is among the zones, and there is no reason for new players to suppose there *is* a correct order!!

I had killed Glenumbra's big bad before I'd even started the Gleumbra zone story, which made every quest there into complete nonsense. I had married off the Silvenar without ever seeing him become the Silvenar. And then a day later I met him "for the first time". I finished bits of the main quest without knowing it was the main quest which, when I found out the main quest existed and played again, meant having to work out by process of elimination where the giant gap in the middle of the story picked up again.

I literally had to go through online quest guides one by one via Google and visit the places concerned until I found one I hadn't done. And granted the zone guide now exists, but that only goes so far to address the overall problem that the main quest and base game zone stories are linked and that the game allows you to play things out of sequence which should never be allowed to be played out of sequence.

It is a total mess and rapidly becomes unplayable and impossible to enjoy. It is not an exaggeration.

Braffin wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

I disagree. We are told what's expected from us at the end of the tutorial:

What do you think I should do next?
"The Keywright's Gallery opened doors to every corner of Tamriel. Places, I suspect, that desperately need a hero's aid.
This choice is yours to make. But wherever you choose to go, I'm sure adventure awaits. May the stars protect you." Norianwe

Just explore the chosen destination for a bit and you will find yourself something to do rather quick.

And there is definitely no need to bring back the coldharbour tutorial and forcing players to start the allegedly "main quest". The story of the 5 companions is a major quest-arc next to many others (daedric war being just one example for that). Everyone interested in a chronologial experience is already free to play it that way.

Very strongly disagree with this. Frankly, ESO makes no sense at all without the main quest and becomes a listless, "pick up random quests" experience for new players in which nothing matters and you can enter into the middle of stories in which characters talk to you like they've known you years when you've only just met.

It is weird, alienating, and actually unpleasant to play -- it makes you feel you are either completely stupid as a player or that the game has some sort of chronic bug. The game becomes impossible to navigate, the world ends up feeling empty and completely random (why are strange black chains dropping down from the sky, why is everyone calling me vestige, why is this person talking to me in gibberish about something I have never done), and it very rapidly leads new players to drop the game and play something that is both more fun and better designed.

The game, at a bare minimum, needs to explain to players -- in real world language -- that the main quest exists, is designed to get them to level 50, and where to go to find it. Without it, literally all the zones in the original base game *do not make sense*.

That's a bit much exaggeration, lol.

The "main quest" isn't necessary at all to play the original zones in a joyful manner. Just play the alliance zones in the correct order and you're good to go. In fact this zones have next to nothing to do with the story of the 5 companions.

I agree regarding the need of better explanations tho. I vote for sorting the "stories" tab in chronological order.

I quit the game twice because I could not understand what was going on. It's no exaggeration.

Nothing in the original zones tells you what the correct order is and there is no reason for new players to suppose there *is* a correct order!!

I had killed Glenumbra's big bad before I'd even started the Gleumbra zone story, which made every quest there into complete nonsense. I had married off the Silvenar without ever seeing him become the Silvenar. And then a day later I met him "for the first time". I finished bits of the main quest without knowing it was the main quest which, when I found out the main quest existed and played again, meant having to work out by process of elimination where the giant gap in the middle of the story picked up again.

It is a total mess and rapidly becomes unplayable and impossible to enjoy. It is not an exaggeration.

Neither Angof nor the Silvenar have anything to do with the main quest. You mixed that up with the alliance stories (which should be done mostly in order to make sense). The story of the 5 companions is a self-contained story, except for the need to finish coldharbour (which isn't part of the main quest) beforehand.

Your examples show very clearly, that better explanations are necessary, especially for base game zones (DLC zones are fine, as they are also mostly self-contained). None of that is connected to the "main quest" tho, not in the slightest.

Well on the second point, I have learnt that literally just now from your post!

They have got to do something about how the game order is explained. It was awful at the time of Morrowind. I cannot see how the tutorial, so many chapters and wild quest arrows later, improves anything at all.

I'm all for freedom of choosing where to start, but if they do that, they need to set out in plain English how the quest orders work and what the quests are. Not "go out and have grand adventures of your choosing" without any further guidance beyond the zone guide. The underlying game was not written for you to have grand adventures of your choosing. It was written to be played in a set order. If you try to have grand adventures of your choosing the whole thing falls apart and that is how you lose players permanently.

Braffin wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

I disagree. We are told what's expected from us at the end of the tutorial:

What do you think I should do next?
"The Keywright's Gallery opened doors to every corner of Tamriel. Places, I suspect, that desperately need a hero's aid.
This choice is yours to make. But wherever you choose to go, I'm sure adventure awaits. May the stars protect you." Norianwe

Just explore the chosen destination for a bit and you will find yourself something to do rather quick.

And there is definitely no need to bring back the coldharbour tutorial and forcing players to start the allegedly "main quest". The story of the 5 companions is a major quest-arc next to many others (daedric war being just one example for that). Everyone interested in a chronologial experience is already free to play it that way.

Very strongly disagree with this. Frankly, ESO makes no sense at all without the main quest and becomes a listless, "pick up random quests" experience for new players in which nothing matters and you can enter into the middle of stories in which characters talk to you like they've known you years when you've only just met.

It is weird, alienating, and actually unpleasant to play -- it makes you feel you are either completely stupid as a player or that the game has some sort of chronic bug. The game becomes impossible to navigate, the world ends up feeling empty and completely random (why are strange black chains dropping down from the sky, why is everyone calling me vestige, why is this person talking to me in gibberish about something I have never done), and it very rapidly leads new players to drop the game and play something that is both more fun and better designed.

The game, at a bare minimum, needs to explain to players -- in real world language -- that the main quest exists, is designed to get them to level 50, and where to go to find it. Without it, literally all the zones in the original base game *do not make sense*.

That's a bit much exaggeration, lol.

The "main quest" isn't necessary at all to play the original zones in a joyful manner. Just play the alliance zones in the correct order and you're good to go. In fact this zones have next to nothing to do with the story of the 5 companions.

I agree regarding the need of better explanations tho. I vote for sorting the "stories" tab in chronological order.

I quit the game twice because I could not understand what was going on. It's no exaggeration.

Nothing in the original zones tells you what the correct order is and there is no reason for new players to suppose there *is* a correct order!!

I had killed Glenumbra's big bad before I'd even started the Gleumbra zone story, which made every quest there into complete nonsense. I had married off the Silvenar without ever seeing him become the Silvenar. And then a day later I met him "for the first time". I finished bits of the main quest without knowing it was the main quest which, when I found out the main quest existed and played again, meant having to work out by process of elimination where the giant gap in the middle of the story picked up again.

It is a total mess and rapidly becomes unplayable and impossible to enjoy. It is not an exaggeration.

Neither Angof nor the Silvenar have anything to do with the main quest. You mixed that up with the alliance stories (which should be done mostly in order to make sense). The story of the 5 companions is a self-contained story, except for the need to finish coldharbour (which isn't part of the main quest) beforehand.

Your examples show very clearly, that better explanations are necessary, especially for base game zones (DLC zones are fine, as they are also mostly self-contained). None of that is connected to the "main quest" tho, not in the slightest.

Well on the second point, I have learnt that literally just now from your post!

They have got to do something about how the game order is explained. It was awful at the time of Morrowind. I cannot see how the tutorial, so many chapters and wild quest arrows later, improves anything at all.

I'm all for freedom of choosing where to start, but if they do that, they need to set out in plain English how the quest orders work and what the quests are. Not "go out and have grand adventures of your choosing" without any further guidance beyond the zone guide. The underlying game was not written for you to have grand adventures of your choosing. It was written to be played in a set order. If you try to have grand adventures of your choosing the whole thing falls apart and that is how you lose players permanently.

Yeah, we are not on a disagreement here. There should be a chronological chart available somewhere and players should be informed clearly at the end of the tutorial, that alliance zones are meant to be played in order.

I think it's also questionable that it's possible to mix up the order of zone stories (Your example about Angof is really a good one). Those quests should only unlock one after another imo.

But, as said before, the tutorial itself and the possibility to take a portal to any starting zone are fine. For example Vvardenfell isn't connected to base game at all, but the beginning of the "daedric war" (continued with clockwork and summerset). While those three zones should be played in order to make sense, it's absolutely not necessary to set foot into the base game even once.

Yes on this point we definitely agree. It is maddening to see. They go on and on about giving players choice. But in some instances that is simply incompatible with how the narrative has been written.

In my case, and I assume very similar happens now, starting in a chapter zone was problematic not in playing the chapter story itself (though it is a very strange story to start the game with as a new player), but because once you have finished there the game *does not indicate that there are alliance quests / main quest* in the base game zones.

So when you leave the chapter where you started as a new player, which is as you say self-contained, you assume every zone in Tamriel will be the same. The game doesn't tell you which zones were the base zones and that the storytelling differs.

So when, in the case of the main quest, a hooded figure kidnaps your screen with some sort of cryptic quest title the moment you hit a base zone location, you just think "that sounds like a really boring side fetch quest and I'm not interested" and ignore it. When it is the game's main quest(!!!!!).

There shouldn't be embarrassment to present the game in real-world language to the player and explain its mechanics. It's almost as if they're scared they'll break immersion if they sit the player down and say "look, these zones came first and don't work the same way" and make the game feel broken. It breaks immersion and makes the game feel broken a whole lot more to not explain that at all.

I really loved just putzing my way around seeing the world in the beginning of my ESO journey. I don't like "micromanaged" story and quest lines. I started in Vvardenfell, decided I STILL didn't like Dunmer and Morrowind any better than I did the first time (TES 3), picked up Summerset for JC, and then moved my Redguard Warden to Glenumbra. For a couple of years I totally ignored the MQ and zone MQs (took me that long to even begin to figure out the horror that is "combat" in this game).

I would definitely not be happy had the game railroaded me into the "MQ on rails". When I decided to start the MQ, I used UESP to sort out what would "go well" with it regarding zone MQs as I meandered through the Prophet MQ.

Those who feel that people need hand-holding.... maybe what's needed is an OPTION to be offered the Prophet MQ start (option being the important word).

I have lost count of the times over the last few years that I have had to explain about the "original" main quest, people who have done no research, literally don't know it even exists!

How can that be good for any Elder Scrolls game which by their very nature are story led gaimes??

It can be argued that the main quest and base game zones are not connected BUT remember you used to finish your Alliance's story and get the quest "Messages across Tamriel" which in turn led you to Coldharbour, an area that you then had to complete, unlocking it as you went, before you could finish the "main" quest!

So originally in your first experiences, the way you played was very much interconnected and made some sort of sense, now it is imo, one huge confusing mess!

I always start new character's in their respective Alliance Zones and I always start the Main Quest(easy skill points why wouldn't I?) as my first job..... I know how to do this but I am totally unsure how a new player would even start to work this out!!

Arizona_Steve wrote: »

For me, the biggest issue was all the prologue quests to DLC zones that were out there in Stonefalls once I got my new toon there. I found myself talking to Sai Sahan, even though he was supposed to be imprisoned in Coldharbor. It was really jarring.

I've been playing this game for 10 years now... and I still get confused.

Oh this too!!

I cannot remember who it was but on one occasion I had three versions of the same NPC in the mages guild in Daggerfall!

I laughed but other people may be soooo confused by this!!

I don't know how to sort this out but the sheer number of quest giver's within a few steps of an Alliance starter city's wayshrine is absolutely ridiculous!

The main quest is a great way for new players to get easy skill points so it’s a shame it is not the first path given. The faction quest is another. Instead new players just pick up every quest marker in whatever zone they end up and it is probably just side quests for them.

The new player experience needs a backbone to it and the main quest is just that.

i must have started before one tamriel because i was on a small starter island when i started.

Northwold wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

I disagree. We are told what's expected from us at the end of the tutorial:

What do you think I should do next?
"The Keywright's Gallery opened doors to every corner of Tamriel. Places, I suspect, that desperately need a hero's aid.
This choice is yours to make. But wherever you choose to go, I'm sure adventure awaits. May the stars protect you." Norianwe

Just explore the chosen destination for a bit and you will find yourself something to do rather quick.

And there is definitely no need to bring back the coldharbour tutorial and forcing players to start the allegedly "main quest". The story of the 5 companions is a major quest-arc next to many others (daedric war being just one example for that). Everyone interested in a chronologial experience is already free to play it that way.

Very strongly disagree with this. Frankly, ESO makes no sense at all without the main quest and becomes a listless, "pick up random quests" experience for new players in which nothing matters and you can enter into the middle of stories in which characters talk to you like they've known you years when you've only just met.

It is weird, alienating, and actually unpleasant to play -- it makes you feel you are either completely stupid as a player or that the game has some sort of chronic bug. The game becomes impossible to navigate, the world ends up feeling empty and completely random (why are strange black chains dropping down from the sky, why is everyone calling me vestige, why is this person talking to me in gibberish about something I have never done), and it very rapidly leads new players to drop the game and play something that is both more fun and better designed.

The game, at a bare minimum, needs to explain to players -- in real world language -- that the main quest exists, is designed to get them to level 50, and where to go to find it. Without it, literally all the zones in the original base game *do not make sense*, and none of the chapter stories provide any kind of introduction to the wider game world. I started in Morrowind, did the Morrowind story (which felt weird -- it does not work as the first story of a new player) and then arrived in the broader world to find... Nothing.

Without a proper narrative structure, ESO, narratively, is plain not a good game. That was what the main quest was designed to provide and it does it pretty well. It needs to be presented to new players in flashing lights.

Agreed. Without the main quest, having various NPCs refer to you as "vestige" makes no sense. It certainly confused the hell out of me when I started playing the game in mid-2020, because at the time we had tutorial quests that always started in the zone for the latest chapter, i.e. there was no Isle of Balfiera.

Exploring the 3 alliances via Cadwell & Meridia's offer at the end of the main quest also makes more sense than just randomly entering the various zones and exploring in no particular order. All new players should start soul-shriven in Coldharbour's Wailing Prison, the game makes far more sense that way.

unless you roleplay ..

Svaïna Winter-Defender (a Nord Dragon Knight) used the Gate of Adamant and went to the Telvanni Peninsula, and appeared at the Tomb of the Nameless Master just outside Necrom. For some reason she felt drawn there. According to Gragus Dalis, a Battleground merchant she met shortly afterward it is mid-day on Middas, 12 Sun's Dawn 2e579. She was taken from Mor Khazgur in the Hold of Karthald only a couple of hours ago.

So I am starting with "Shadow over Morrowind" before the Three Banners War started ! But after the big piece of Aetherius fell to Nirn (skyshards). So no Alliance War in Cyrodiil.

Northwold wrote: »

vsrs_au wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

I disagree. We are told what's expected from us at the end of the tutorial:

What do you think I should do next?
"The Keywright's Gallery opened doors to every corner of Tamriel. Places, I suspect, that desperately need a hero's aid.
This choice is yours to make. But wherever you choose to go, I'm sure adventure awaits. May the stars protect you." Norianwe

Just explore the chosen destination for a bit and you will find yourself something to do rather quick.

And there is definitely no need to bring back the coldharbour tutorial and forcing players to start the allegedly "main quest". The story of the 5 companions is a major quest-arc next to many others (daedric war being just one example for that). Everyone interested in a chronologial experience is already free to play it that way.

Very strongly disagree with this. Frankly, ESO makes no sense at all without the main quest and becomes a listless, "pick up random quests" experience for new players in which nothing matters and you can enter into the middle of stories in which characters talk to you like they've known you years when you've only just met.

It is weird, alienating, and actually unpleasant to play -- it makes you feel you are either completely stupid as a player or that the game has some sort of chronic bug. The game becomes impossible to navigate, the world ends up feeling empty and completely random (why are strange black chains dropping down from the sky, why is everyone calling me vestige, why is this person talking to me in gibberish about something I have never done), and it very rapidly leads new players to drop the game and play something that is both more fun and better designed.

The game, at a bare minimum, needs to explain to players -- in real world language -- that the main quest exists, is designed to get them to level 50, and where to go to find it. Without it, literally all the zones in the original base game *do not make sense*, and none of the chapter stories provide any kind of introduction to the wider game world. I started in Morrowind, did the Morrowind story (which felt weird -- it does not work as the first story of a new player) and then arrived in the broader world to find... Nothing.

Without a proper narrative structure, ESO, narratively, is plain not a good game. That was what the main quest was designed to provide and it does it pretty well. It needs to be presented to new players in flashing lights.

Agreed. Without the main quest, having various NPCs refer to you as "vestige" makes no sense. It certainly confused the hell out of me when I started playing the game in mid-2020, because at the time we had tutorial quests that always started in the zone for the latest chapter, i.e. there was no Isle of Balfiera.

Exploring the 3 alliances via Cadwell & Meridia's offer at the end of the main quest also makes more sense than just randomly entering the various zones and exploring in no particular order. All new players should start soul-shriven in Coldharbour's Wailing Prison, the game makes far more sense that way.

I kind of like the ability to go anywhere (I think if I had to do the entire alliance quest for AD(?) with all the woodland and wood elf zones before the world opened up I would actually go mad and rage quit).

But if that's to be the case they do need to give much clearer, better guidance to the player and stop allowing the quests to be played out of order (they literally disappear from your journal if you do). If the engine doesn't allow the content itself to be instanced away until you're at the right stage to play it (eg in my case killing the Glenumbra baddie), at least don't allow the related quest to spawn until it's supposed to.

I think Cadwell's Silver and Gold need to be removed from the game and the mechanic of being able to follow the alliance quests just moved eg to the journal from the outset, because as a reward, being offered the chance to go to zones you've already been to and complete stories you've already done is, well, utterly baffling. It presumably stopped making sense the moment One Tamriel dropped.

I believe Cadwell’s silver is the only way to get the soul-shrivel style.

It is a shame that the game only recognises what you do if you do it forward and 'in order'. Otherwise you'll complete a Chapters story with the characters having met you the first time (Such as Lyris in Greymoor), just for them to forget you in anything before that, like the base game main story line, since chronological that happens first. I can't speak for other things though as I've not really played the game through again on a new character (though I will be opting to do it in order again anyways), but I do know the story only actively connects going forward and following the order, 'less you dont mind characters forgetting who you are, or being called titles you've not heard before

ADarklore wrote: »

However, if new players actually CARED, they would just look online and learn about the game and the proper chronological order for the stories. "Shouldn't have to" is no longer an excuse in a world where you can quickly and easily look up the information you want to know, most people have smartphones so they have this information at their fingertips. This game is almost ten years old now, therefore it should be expected to have TONS of content, which equates to people should expect to do a bit of research to know what's going on.

I take your first para which I've only snipped for space, but just on this one, I have to say, this sounds like an established player attitude. To a new player, a game that has to be looked up on Google to be playable is simply a bad game that they should just dump and play something better.

Why should they "CARE" when the game gives them no reason to? (And, indeed, it's not remotely obvious when playing that a chronology issue is in play -- the problems don't scream "we have changed the way the stories work in this game multiple times and therefore look me up on the Internet", just that you have a very strangely written and obtuse game that is not enjoyable.) It is absolutely reasonable to expect a game to be intelligible without having to research it. At a bare minimum, a new player would expect a game to make its own operation plain within its own help system, which ESO does not.

So, yes, perhaps ZOS will never properly address the new player experience. But if the game dies as a result, that is not at all the fault of new players.

Edit: I actually wonder if part of a solution to all of this isn't to create an island, mystery temple, whatever, or even a plain menu screen, accessible not just to new players but to ALL players, that allows you to choose between and access ALL the game's primary, alliance, zone quests and lists what, exactly, each of them are.

For example: 1. start the game's original main quest, 2. Start the game's original Aldmeri Dominion alliance quest, which covers (names of all the zones), 3. Start the Morrowind chapter's main story, etc. Etc.

And the player clicks the option, walks through the door or whatever and the player can, at any point, be taken to that content's beginning and have it appear in their journal with a clear, real world explanation of what it actually is and which zones the quest relates to.

The game does indeed have a lot of content. Sticking to a model where that content is delivered to the player by characters within the world itself has gone from being cute and nice to incredibly confusing and at times completely incomprehensible. Most definitely for new players but it can even be difficult to work out where to go to play X content for existing players, now.