[Trial beginner question] As a healer, which role should healer save? Tank or DD?

AvalonRanger · December 2023

[Trial beginner question] As a healer, which role should healer save? Tank or DD?

In 12men normal Trial mission.

My tank and healer have enough amount of 4men Vet dungeon experience.
And my tank is tough enough compared with most of PUG tank so far from my experience.

But sometimes I meet high CP(ex CP1500) fragile tank than mine who couldn't deal
power attack of dangerous foe of add. And other 11 member be wiped 3 times.

Q, Is it healer's fault? Should I ignore every DD people just for only 1 unreliable tank?
Is it OK? Because I can't heal both tank and DD just by only me.
Fragile tank always complain against healer, but group Trial is 12 people, it's not 4 men dungeon.
If tank and DD member keep standing narrow area, then we can heal both ...but mostly everyone
are going scatter everywhere. (/._.\)

fizl101 · December 2023

Both. And dont forget there are two healers usually. Tanks in trials tend to build more to give buffs than use selfish sets. Part of the healers role is to recognise when the tanks is going to need a big heal such as just when they release their curse in the bahsei fight in rockgrove

AvalonRanger · December 2023

Doing healing job in the 12 men group mission is almost nightmare actually.

"Oh my god! one of my DD suffer dangerous foe's attack without tank."
Me: Toss the direct healing far from me like the rifle shooter.

Then, I flip my head other side, then 5 member 's health going down so fast without
healing. And our tank can't deal dangerous add foe. My head become almost panic.

AvalonRanger · December 2023

fizl101 wrote: »

Both. And dont forget there are two healers usually. Tanks in trials tend to build more to give buffs than use selfish sets. Part of the healers role is to recognise when the tanks is going to need a big heal such as just when they release their curse in the bahsei fight in rockgrove

Thanks for group finder tool, I can enjoy the some 12 men Trial mission.
But, mostly 1 tank and 1 healer and 10DD. And go to the DLC trial.

That was nightmare...not fun at all.

I know I'm beginner also, but I think 2 tank 2 healer will be better.

fizl101 · December 2023

Depends on the trial for number of tanks, but usually 2 healers

M0ntie · December 2023

Sounds like your trial group had a few problems and not all of them can be fixed by the healer.
If you have a fragile tank, that is a problem that the tank needs to address. If they are learning then they can run more selfish sets to keep themself alive. Having 2 healers will also help!
If your dps are spread out that is a dps problem - unless there is a trial mechanic that requires them to be spread out (eg. vAS). In most trials the dps will be mostly stacked - sometimes hard stacked (on top of one another) and sometimes soft stacked (within about 3 metres of one another).
If the dps properly stack you can get heals on the tank and all the dps.
If the dps are really spread out, or behind the healer then let them die - then they'll learn to stand where they are supposed to be. You could also use a skill like radiating regen - useful for disorganised dps who don't stack properly.

You should be running multiple healing skills, so you can put some heals on the tank and some on the dps. For example, a warden healer can put flowers on the tank, and keep springs on the group.

Generally give more priority to keeping tanks alive though. You can usually recover from dps dying, but a tank dying is very likely to wipe the group.

Freilauftomate · December 2023

If you are just starting with trials, i have some suggestions for you that might make your life easier:

It's always a team effort. Talk to your teammates and find a solution.

If there is too much negativity in your group to do that, and people are just blaming each other for "not playing good enough", then you should leave the group and play with someone else.

If your groupleaders don't explain and organize anything and just yell at people for "being idiots", and are aggro all the time (because they are overwhelmed and can't handle leading groups), just leave, ignore and forget about them.

Life is too short to be psychologically abused by some narcissistic wannabe dictator and their army of butt-kissing elitists.

It took me many years to find out that you don't have to join a bunch of rude kids to play the hardest content in a video game. And you don't need self-proclaimed pro-gamers that always moan and cry about something and shame others for making mistakes, and start drama behind people's backs. Just delete them from your life.

The best groups have nice players, love to help each other out and get hardmodes done without constantly being stressed out and being afraid of each other. They are having a good time and still manage to get things done.

Yes, you should learn to focus in the right moments, and for harder content you should be well prepared and trained, but in the right group that will not be a problem.

It's a game, not a job.

But to answer your question: no matter what you do it's always the healer's fault, even if it isn't

Soarora · December 2023

I focus on healing the DPS and send orbs towards one tank but if the tank’s health is struggling I’ll give them my budding seeds and a few combat prayers. The thing about healing trials is that people can die to lack of healing but it’s actually their fault for not being in group. Don’t chase the DPS who insists on running behind you, people should be stacked in front of you most of the time.

Dagoth_Rac · December 2023

Really good organized groups are explicitly designed to do as little healing/tanking as possible and as much DPS as possible. Not no tanking or healing at all, of course, but the absolute bare minimum possible. These groups see any amount of "overtanking" or "overhealing" as energy and resources wasted that would have been better focused on killing stuff faster and getting a higher score. A tank who is constantly dropping to 1000 health is, to these groups, a tank with 999 health too much. Those groups have no room for error. Zip. Zero. Nada. All 12 players perform 100% flawlessly or the group wipes. Usually they do play perfect so it is OK.

Then these elite groups with top leaderboard scores post their builds and strategies and everyone copies them. But a PUG group is not gonna play flawlessly. Not even close. They need more margin for error than the top groups.

I can't say whether the problem in your group was healing, tanking, or DPS. Or a combo of all of that. But it always feels to me like a lot of PUG groups (and bad progression groups) try to mimic the play of top groups. And they simply do not have the skill or coordination or communication to pull it off. And would have been better off going with lots of tanking and lots of healing and if it is not a speed run, so be it. Slow and steady is better than a wipe and endless bickering.

Braffin · December 2023

Remember the thick skin I recommended you, if you intend to learn raiding in random groups (yeah, group finder is still random in this regard)? Now you see one of the reasons for that.

It's hard to tell in a chaotic mess without any formation, truly organized raidlead and a plethora of individual, uncoordinated builds who exactly did wrong enough to wipe the group. Most probably there isn't a single issue with the team, but the whole structure is faulty and the wipe is a well-deserved group-achievement.

As a rule of thumb: In general healers are positioned by the raidlead (exact place depends on encounter and tactic) and are responsible for buffing/healing the area in front of them. DDs running around anywhere outside this area are either doing a specific task (the raidlead should explain that) or simply DDs, which aren't used to play in formation. Don't heal those, except the raidlead tells you explicitely to do so.

Braffin · December 2023

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Really good organized groups are explicitly designed to do as little healing/tanking as possible and as much DPS as possible. Not no tanking or healing at all, of course, but the absolute bare minimum possible. These groups see any amount of "overtanking" or "overhealing" as energy and resources wasted that would have been better focused on killing stuff faster and getting a higher score. A tank who is constantly dropping to 1000 health is, to these groups, a tank with 999 health too much. Those groups have no room for error. Zip. Zero. Nada. All 12 players perform 100% flawlessly or the group wipes. Usually they do play perfect so it is OK.

Then these elite groups with top leaderboard scores post their builds and strategies and everyone copies them. But a PUG group is not gonna play flawlessly. Not even close. They need more margin for error than the top groups.

I can't say whether the problem in your group was healing, tanking, or DPS. Or a combo of all of that. But it always feels to me like a lot of PUG groups (and bad progression groups) try to mimic the play of top groups. And they simply do not have the skill or coordination or communication to pull it off. And would have been better off going with lots of tanking and lots of healing and if it is not a speed run, so be it. Slow and steady is better than a wipe and endless bickering.

That's definitely what I witnessed too over the years. There are a lot of groups around, which use this "strategy": Copy meta builds (made for scorepushing) -> can't handle meta builds due to lack of training/skill -> blame each other for failing as well as "elitists", "gatekeepers", zos and the game in general -> wait for a "more favorable" meta -> copy meta build ...

Would people go after viable builds instead, they had much options at hand to solve their specific issues.

Giulietta · December 2023

I used to heal in normal and vet raids, and I´m pretty sure you do need a second healer. the DDs need to avoid standing in stupid as much as possible, and depending on the raid, you might also need an off-tank.
I would recommend a steady raid-group too, as it´s the best way to learn for any role.

your main priority is the tank- DDs need to be healed too of course, but if the tank dies probably everyone will.
it was a hard lesson for me too at the start, but focusing on DDs who uneccessarily stray far from the group even for a tiny moment is endangering everyone else- let them die, they won´t learn not to do that if you always protect them from the consequences.

good luck!

El_Borracho · December 2023

Not going to repeat what others have said, as they are spot on, but being a Healer in trials is not primarily healing. When you are not actively healing, healers are expected to put debuffs on the boss, buffs or shields on the group, and drop orbs or shards (if you are a Templar) for resources for the group.

In fact, with at least semi-organized groups now, the primary role of the healer is to buff the group and only actively heal when necessary. Which is why you will see roles for "ROJO [Roaring Opportunist/Jorvulds Guidance] Healer" and/or "SPC/Pillager Healer" for trials.

For example, the ROJO Healer is expected to heavy attack with enough frequency to give the DDs Major Slayer while keeping up damage shields and/or buffs on the group and extending them with Jorvulds'. SPC/Pillager is expected to overheal with enough frequency to keep up Major Courage and gain ultimates quickly and use them to help the DDs gain ultimate. Both roles help push the damage and speed up the boss fight, which in turn requires less healing.

Reverb · December 2023

Adding to the great comments here, trial tanks have to be self sustaining. While they to need HoTs they will rarely need a big reactive heal the way your DPS do. The biggest way to help your tank is to make sure they are buffed and help manage their resources. The one advantage Templars have over other class healers is the ability to throw shards at your tank and orbs into your dps.

Araneae6537 · December 2023

Tank, always tank first. If the tank goes down, it’s likely the whole group will wipe.

Of course you want to keep HoTs and buffs up on everyone, but the DDs staying alive is partly on them doing mechanics — blocking attacks can’t be prevented by the tank (thinking of Kyne’s Aegis), taking targeted aoe out of group and generally staying out of the danger zones.

ghastley · December 2023

Your attitude should be: “It’s up to the DDs and Tank not to need healing, so my work is a bonus”. Buffs etc. can only be contributed when you don’t need to heal. That’s the safety net, not the prime function.

Of course, the “overheal for Major Courage” mentioned above and similar mechanics mean it isn’t that simple.

boi_anachronism_ · December 2023

AvalonRanger wrote: »

[Trial beginner question] As a healer, which role should healer save? Tank or DD?

In 12men normal Trial mission.

My tank and healer have enough amount of 4men Vet dungeon experience.
And my tank is tough enough compared with most of PUG tank so far from my experience.

But sometimes I meet high CP(ex CP1500) fragile tank than mine who couldn't deal
power attack of dangerous foe of add. And other 11 member be wiped 3 times.

Q, Is it healer's fault? Should I ignore every DD people just for only 1 unreliable tank?
Is it OK? Because I can't heal both tank and DD just by only me.
Fragile tank always complain against healer, but group Trial is 12 people, it's not 4 men dungeon.
If tank and DD member keep standing narrow area, then we can heal both ...but mostly everyone
are going scatter everywhere. (/._.\)

Something to consider: you cant heal everyone through everything regardless. Tanks have mechs that are one shots. If they are going down in may well be because they missed a heavy or something of that nature. When i tank trials i appreciate a floor during a sustained mechanic or a synergy every now and again but the fact is that if i get hit by eviscerated a healer coudnt save me regardless of if I was their focus.

CrazyKitty · December 2023

Tank is most important to keep alive in high pressure situation. But got to get those DD's up quick because even the best tank can't do it all for long.

Jaimeh · December 2023

AvalonRanger wrote: »

[Trial beginner question] As a healer, which role should healer save? Tank or DD?

In 12men normal Trial mission.

My tank and healer have enough amount of 4men Vet dungeon experience.
And my tank is tough enough compared with most of PUG tank so far from my experience.

But sometimes I meet high CP(ex CP1500) fragile tank than mine who couldn't deal
power attack of dangerous foe of add. And other 11 member be wiped 3 times.

Q, Is it healer's fault? Should I ignore every DD people just for only 1 unreliable tank?
Is it OK? Because I can't heal both tank and DD just by only me.
Fragile tank always complain against healer, but group Trial is 12 people, it's not 4 men dungeon.
If tank and DD member keep standing narrow area, then we can heal both ...but mostly everyone
are going scatter everywhere. (/._.\)

In the example you described you would try to keep the tank alive because if the tank wipes, there's more chances that it will become a whole group wipe. But ideally you would ask the DDs to position better, so you could hopefully get more than the tank in your heals. If the tank is fragile and they have no way to increase their mitigation, then you have to adjust your skills and build try to give them some mitigation if you are able. But if they keep wiping, then it's not really your fault, they probably needed to adjust their build (and also maybe get more experience how to deal with the mechanics or incoming damage in that fight), so don't stress too much about it.

DMuehlhausen · December 2023

The answer to a point is neither.

You are there to buff and debuff. If Tanks and DD don't want to stay in your heals (since most are ground AoE) that's on them. The other terrible thing are DDs that thing running in circles ups their DPS specially now with Arcanist who is more of a LoS healer.

If you an answer though always save the tank first. The way the game works with damage they can survive a good time without you healing on certain things while you rez somebody if needed. It's never really the healers job to rez either and most DD don't understand this because they have to top the charts instead of making sure the trial is a success.

AvalonRanger · December 2023

Jaimeh wrote: »

AvalonRanger wrote: »

[Trial beginner question] As a healer, which role should healer save? Tank or DD?

In 12men normal Trial mission.

My tank and healer have enough amount of 4men Vet dungeon experience.
And my tank is tough enough compared with most of PUG tank so far from my experience.

But sometimes I meet high CP(ex CP1500) fragile tank than mine who couldn't deal
power attack of dangerous foe of add. And other 11 member be wiped 3 times.

Q, Is it healer's fault? Should I ignore every DD people just for only 1 unreliable tank?
Is it OK? Because I can't heal both tank and DD just by only me.
Fragile tank always complain against healer, but group Trial is 12 people, it's not 4 men dungeon.
If tank and DD member keep standing narrow area, then we can heal both ...but mostly everyone
are going scatter everywhere. (/._.\)

In the example you described you would try to keep the tank alive because if the tank wipes, there's more chances that it will become a whole group wipe. But ideally you would ask the DDs to position better, so you could hopefully get more than the tank in your heals. If the tank is fragile and they have no way to increase their mitigation, then you have to adjust your skills and build try to give them some mitigation if you are able. But if they keep wiping, then it's not really your fault, they probably needed to adjust their build (and also maybe get more experience how to deal with the mechanics or incoming damage in that fight), so don't stress too much about it.

First of all, thanks for good advice.

I have one unacceptable issue for the fragile tank player.
From my experience, If player has CP1500, then player can build almost immortal
tank in most of non DLC group mission contents. (Except DLC, of course) .

Why they can't build "decent tank" for the group mission?