Combo Activation Triggers Have Incorrect Timing

Personofsecrets · November 2023

I used Elder Witch to destroy a War Song from my played cards pile. Elder Witche's combo 2 to replace a tavern card was not triggered.

In my opinion, and I think this is how the game must have worked at some point because it would be odd for me to just experience this issue now, a combo should trigger as soon as a card which would trigger a combo is played. So that trigger is to go onto the "stack" until the current effect resolves and then the stack can resolve afterward.

It's incredibly bizarre that Elder Witche's combo 2 would not be triggered..

I disagree with the concept that in play cards shoudn't "see" previously played cards that have been played during the same turn and then destroyed. Either a card has been played or it hasn't, it shouldn't matter the current location of the first played card. This case is more egregious since both Elder Witch and War Song do share an amount of time in which they are both in play at the same time, yet no combo is triggered.

Often I hear tut-tutting about how powerful digital platorms are and how they let us play games that otherwise wouldn't be able to be kept track of by the normal human mind. And then I encounter issues like this which remind me that we are totally unready for the power that computing can provide. Maybe digitally enhanced board games is a conversation that can be had more maturely in 500 years, if even people still have casual time that can be used at that point in history.

ESO_player123 · November 2023

Personofsecrets wrote: »

I used Elder Witch to destroy a War Song from my played cards pile. Elder Witche's combo 2 to replace a tavern card was not triggered.

In my opinion, and I think this is how the game must have worked at some point because it would be odd for me to just experience this issue now, a combo should trigger as soon as a card which would trigger a combo is played. So that trigger is to go onto the "stack" until the current effect resolves and then the stack can resolve afterward.

It's incredibly bizarre that Elder Witche's combo 2 would not be triggered..

I disagree with the concept that in play cards shoudn't "see" previously played cards that have been played during the same turn and then destroyed. Either a card has been played or it hasn't, it shouldn't matter the current location of the first played card. This case is more egregious since both Elder Witch and War Song do share an amount of time in which they are both in play at the same time, yet no combo is triggered.

Often I hear tut-tutting about how powerful digital platorms are and how they let us play games that otherwise wouldn't be able to be kept track of by the normal human mind. And then I encounter issues like this which remind me that we are totally unready for the power that computing can provide. Maybe digitally enhanced board games is a conversation that can be had more maturely in 500 years, if even people still have casual time that can be used at that point in history.

I've experienced this issue many times, so it's definitely not something new. I keep forgetting about it, so occasionally repeat this mistake.

kmfdm · November 2023

I don't think that it is a bug. The combo is a separate ability severed from the main ability of the card. First, the main ability is fully resolved, and then the remaining combo abilities are resolved. If all combo abilities would trigger together with the main ability, it would lead to more problematic situations, for instance, if you have played Midnight Raid, then used Briarheart Ritual to destroy the Midnight Raid, it would be fairly odd to expect to get the additional 2 power from the Midnight Raid combo ability after it has been destroyed.

Personofsecrets · November 2023

kmfdm wrote: »

I don't think that it is a bug. The combo is a separate ability severed from the main ability of the card. First, the main ability is fully resolved, and then the remaining combo abilities are resolved. If all combo abilities would trigger together with the main ability, it would lead to more problematic situations, for instance, if you have played Midnight Raid, then used Briarheart Ritual to destroy the Midnight Raid, it would be fairly odd to expect to get the additional 2 power from the Midnight Raid combo ability after it has been destroyed.

My commentary is mostly aimed at the design industry. We are told how great digital games are at figuring things out, but Tales of Tribute can't even remember if a certain color of card was played earlier in the turn. Maybe this isn't a bug because this is how the designers have designed things to be, but I still think that this issue, especially in this case since there is timing when both War Drum and Witch are in play at the same time, could use improvements.

By the way, players keep track of storm counter in MTG. It doesn't matter what happens to the played spells, players till are able to track this kind of thing with just dice or pen and paper.

And though the designers aren't super receptive to balance change ideas, they have changed a few mechanic parts of the game after I wrote about them. I've written more about those changes here. So maybe this interaction that I write about here could be changed for the better.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/640875/evaluating-the-2023-state-of-the-game-and-suggestions#latest

kmfdm · November 2023

@Personofsecrets You've made some good points in the separate post you mentioned, and I understand what you are saying here too, but remember, there is usually no stack in deckbuilders, and this is no exception. In other deckbuilders, you usually just need to reveal the relevant card from your hand when you play another card to trigger its combo ability. That way, each card is simply resolved the moment it is played and you never go back and check whether your previous cards will fire their combos.

It could be done here too, the problem is the Contract cards (which other deckbuilders usually don't have, or these instant-played cards do not contribute to combos), which makes it impossible for the system to know whether the combo will trigger the moment the card is played, since you can decide to use a Contract card later in the turn. So, they had to implement a system that--after each card's main effect (and combo effect) you play is resolved--checks if it triggers the combo effect of all the cards you have previously played (but not the main effect, main effect has already been applied). You can see, that the main effect and the combo effect have to be severed and the system has to deal with them as two separate things, and now since there is no stack, each effect (whether the last card's main effect or combo effect, or a combo effect of any previous card) is resolved immediately the moment it is triggered, and therefore the War Song is no longer considered in play when the system checks whether the requirements for the combo effect of the Elder Witch are fulfilled.