Warden/ice staff changes I’d like to see for pve

GusTheWizard · November 2023

With all the new changes we’ve seen with skills persisting through bar swap I think it would be nice if the eternal guardian morph only needed to be on one bar and have it no longer be an ultimate you can activate as an execute and maybe have it deal 50% less damage to players, this way we can get a clear distinction between the morphs one giving you really good single target damage and the other being more of a passive damage morph (kind of like sorc pets) where you could use your ultimate for meteor or destro ult in aoe fights.

The other change I’d like to see is instead of immobilizing targets in Frost Elemental Rage it would chill targets ones every second. this would help the frost variant of this ultimate deal comparable damage to the other staff types, for warden because of this passive

Glacial Presence
Increase chance of applying Chilled to enemies with Winter's Embrace abilities by 200%. Increases the damage of your Chilled status effect by 1005. This effect scales off your highest offensive stats.

Over all warden isn’t in the best spot as a pve dd but they’re good when it comes to pvp and I think these changes would help without making them any stronger in pvp.

LunaFlora · November 2023

that would be nice!

GusTheWizard · November 2023

LunaFlora wrote: »

that would be nice!

Wouldn’t it be, I’m so tired of only being able to use the bear ult in pve no point to use any other ultimate.

ArchMikem · November 2023

@ESO_Nightingale has been summoned once again by the Frost Wardens.

ESO_Nightingale · November 2023

GusTheWizard wrote: »

With all the new changes we’ve seen with skills persisting through bar swap I think it would be nice if the eternal guardian morph only needed to be on one bar and have it no longer be an ultimate you can activate as an execute and maybe have it deal 50% less damage to players, this way we can get a clear distinction between the morphs one giving you really good single target damage and the other being more of a passive damage morph (kind of like sorc pets) where you could use your ultimate for meteor or destro ult in aoe fights.

The other change I’d like to see is instead of immobilizing targets in Frost Elemental Rage it would chill targets ones every second. this would help the frost variant of this ultimate deal comparable damage to the other staff types, for warden because of this passive

Glacial Presence
Increase chance of applying Chilled to enemies with Winter's Embrace abilities by 200%. Increases the damage of your Chilled status effect by 1005. This effect scales off your highest offensive stats.

Over all warden isn’t in the best spot as a pve dd but they’re good when it comes to pvp and I think these changes would help without making them any stronger in pvp.

Icy rage feels pretty terrible, this kind of change would definitely help. As it is, that ultimate immobilises so many enemies on it's outermost ring way too often

Tyrant_Tim · November 2023

IMO Warden passives shouldn’t make using an Ice Staff better or worse, they should focus on increasing base percentages and adding stats, so if you want to focus on using other weapon types, you’re not gimping your overall damage.

Perhaps if Wardens weren’t pigeonholed into a specific playstyle, it would help them compete with other damage dealers.

Personally, I would appreciate a reversion to the Warden passive damage increase with an ice staff equipped to it’s original % increase to damage with an added line of extra weapon and spell damage… along with changing the damage increase of Chilled from Glacial Presence to a passive unnamed Critical Chance buff.

Don’t quite understand why only one of 7 classes can reliably use an Ice “Destruction” Staff for damage. I would much rather Ice Staves receive a shift from tanking tools to ones that focus on damage, as is fitting for their category.

GusTheWizard · November 2023

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Changing the damage increase of Chilled from Glacial Presence to a passive unnamed Critical Chance buff.

That’s like saying Dk’s Combustion passive shouldn’t increase the damage of burning and poison. I suggested this change for warden to get increased damage with chilled many years ago and I’m glad Zos listened, it’s literally an ice skill line.

ESO_Nightingale · November 2023

GusTheWizard wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Changing the damage increase of Chilled from Glacial Presence to a passive unnamed Critical Chance buff.

That’s like saying Dk’s Combustion passive shouldn’t increase the damage of burning and poison. I suggested this change for warden to get increased damage with chilled many years ago and I’m glad Zos listened, it’s literally an ice skill line.

I agree. We suggested this and it doesn't require an ice staff to be useful to warden dps. This change has done so much to improve frost damage's value to frost warden and that was the idea behind it and one of the biggest problems frost warden ever had. Removing it makes literally no sense because it's probably the single most impactful change frost warden has ever recieved. Frost damage had one of the worst status effects in the game as it wasn't a dot status. The good damage types in the game all have that thing in common. Because chilled was being applied an absolute ton, the best thing to do was to increase it's direct damage. The old crit damage increase was good and all but since the introduction of the crit cap it's lost a lot of value. I didn't like the change to advanced species to make it give crit damage and i would rather it not give that.

Piercing Cold is still a problem as it currently stands. We tried to get them to understand during firesong that it's introduction was going to feel restrictive. But they kept it as is. We've been asking for it to be changed to a passive that buffs bleed and frost damage for a while. Non frost staff builds only getting 2% increased damage is frankly a bit insulting.

I understand feeling upset about frost warden being "the only way to play dps warden" but removing what makes it work is just not the right answer. We literally fought for years to make it exist. I am not about to let us go backwards.

Tyrant_Tim · November 2023

GusTheWizard wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Changing the damage increase of Chilled from Glacial Presence to a passive unnamed Critical Chance buff.

That’s like saying Dk’s Combustion passive shouldn’t increase the damage of burning and poison. I suggested this change for warden to get increased damage with chilled many years ago and I’m glad Zos listened, it’s literally an ice skill line.

Yeah, it’s a skill line designed for tanking.

If Winter’s Embrace, a skill line revolving around Frost, one of the three Destruction elements, was a damage focused skill line as it should be, or at least had a damage morph of each skill instead of what we have currently, we wouldn’t need gimmicky passives like 1000 extra damage to ALL Chilled when Animal Companions present zero opportunities to chill your opponent and a tacky 10% increase to damage with an Ice Staff equipped.

10% increase with an Ice Staff to what?

Frost Pulsar with its Minor Protection? Force Pulse, a single-target spammable that hits less than any other options? Blockade of Ice an ability run by tanks making it’s additional penetration redundant? You’ve already covered how bad the Frost version of the ultimate is, now the only skill worth slotting would be Frost Reach but it’s single target.

When you look at other classes, they adapt better each patch because of how baseline their passives are. Even DK with their Combustion.

No matter what weapon types and abilities are best in a given patch, they all adapt better. No other class is tethered to a weapon type like Warden.

Solving Warden isn’t as simple as buffing one or two activated skills, it has core flaws built into their passives that force you into less powerful builds, and they need to be addressed before Warden will ever compete as a Damage Dealer.

ZOS_Hadeostry · November 2023

Greetings,

After further review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic, as it's related to mechanics.

Thank you for your understanding

GusTheWizard · November 2023

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

No matter what weapon types and abilities are best in a given patch, they all adapt better. No other class is tethered to a weapon type like Warden.

It’s not about being tethered to a weapon it’s about warden and ice staff getting a special buff because ice staff has no damage passive, your free to use any weapon type you want. this isn’t the best way to do this passive imo but that’s how they have it right now. If it were me I’d increase the 2% to like 6% or 7%.

ESO_Nightingale · November 2023

GusTheWizard wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

No matter what weapon types and abilities are best in a given patch, they all adapt better. No other class is tethered to a weapon type like Warden.

It’s not about being tethered to a weapon it’s about warden and ice staff getting a special buff because ice staff has no damage passive, your free to use any weapon type you want. this isn’t the best way to do this passive imo but that’s how they have it right now. If it were me I’d increase the 2% to like 6% or 7%.

honestly i'd make it buff frost and bleed damage by 6% and increase the frost bonus to around 18% with a frost staff equipped

this gives a good bonus for everyone and still keeps that warden-only frost staff buff, but it's restricted in a way that it only benefits pure frost damage builds if you choose to run a frost staff.

Tyrant_Tim · November 2023

GusTheWizard wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

No matter what weapon types and abilities are best in a given patch, they all adapt better. No other class is tethered to a weapon type like Warden.

It’s not about being tethered to a weapon it’s about warden and ice staff getting a special buff because ice staff has no damage passive, your free to use any weapon type you want. this isn’t the best way to do this passive imo but that’s how they have it right now. If it were me I’d increase the 2% to like 6% or 7%.

So, you believe only Dragonknight should be proficient with a Flame Staff and Sorcerer with Lightning?

Because that’s what a unique 10% exclusive passive damage does to Ice Staff.

I also use the word “proficient” lightly, as even with that buff, Wardens that try to build into frost damage still lack in comparison to other classes DPS-wise, due to the number of reasons I listed.

Tyrant_Tim · November 2023

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

GusTheWizard wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Changing the damage increase of Chilled from Glacial Presence to a passive unnamed Critical Chance buff.

That’s like saying Dk’s Combustion passive shouldn’t increase the damage of burning and poison. I suggested this change for warden to get increased damage with chilled many years ago and I’m glad Zos listened, it’s literally an ice skill line.

Removing it makes literally no sense because it's probably the single most impactful change frost warden has ever recieved.

Did you read my entire suggestion or just half of it?

Untethering the staff from Warden needs to be paired with a complete detachment from how the staff performs as a tank weapon.

An ice destruction staff needs to have passives and skills that focus on damage, not preventing damage.

Frost staves never should have been turned into tank tools years ago around Thieves Guild, and it’s time they consider adding another weapon type for tanks so we can finally have our staff back.

ESO_Nightingale · November 2023

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

GusTheWizard wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Changing the damage increase of Chilled from Glacial Presence to a passive unnamed Critical Chance buff.

That’s like saying Dk’s Combustion passive shouldn’t increase the damage of burning and poison. I suggested this change for warden to get increased damage with chilled many years ago and I’m glad Zos listened, it’s literally an ice skill line.

Removing it makes literally no sense because it's probably the single most impactful change frost warden has ever recieved.

Did you read my entire suggestion or just half of it?

Untethering the staff from Warden needs to be paired with a complete detachment from how the staff performs as a tank weapon.

An ice destruction staff needs to have passives and skills that focus on damage, not preventing damage.

Frost staves never should have been turned into tank tools years ago around Thieves Guild, and it’s time they consider adding another weapon type for tanks so we can finally have our staff back.

i agree it should have never had a tanking focus, however that's what we are stuck with. there is no way or reason for them to change anything as it is now without messing other roles up.

Tyrant_Tim · November 2023

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

GusTheWizard wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Changing the damage increase of Chilled from Glacial Presence to a passive unnamed Critical Chance buff.

That’s like saying Dk’s Combustion passive shouldn’t increase the damage of burning and poison. I suggested this change for warden to get increased damage with chilled many years ago and I’m glad Zos listened, it’s literally an ice skill line.

Removing it makes literally no sense because it's probably the single most impactful change frost warden has ever recieved.

Did you read my entire suggestion or just half of it?

Untethering the staff from Warden needs to be paired with a complete detachment from how the staff performs as a tank weapon.

An ice destruction staff needs to have passives and skills that focus on damage, not preventing damage.

Frost staves never should have been turned into tank tools years ago around Thieves Guild, and it’s time they consider adding another weapon type for tanks so we can finally have our staff back.

i agree it should have never had a tanking focus, however that's what we are stuck with. there is no way or reason for them to change anything as it is now without messing other roles up.

Which is why Warden is condemned to mediocrity.

They can’t buff Ice Staves for Warden without further taking away build diversity on the class, and they can’t fix the Destruction Staff skill line for damage without taking away their use as a tanking weapon.

It’s quite literally a lose/lose situation either way it’s spun, and you can thank whatever genius dug them a hole with the Frost Staff change years ago.

We have only one way out, and it’s substitution, which would involve an entire new Weapon Skill Line.

OtarTheMad · November 2023

Frost staff should have never been tied to magicka tanking. It should have been an Alteration Staff since that school of magic is already tank related.

OtarTheMad · November 2023

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

GusTheWizard wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Changing the damage increase of Chilled from Glacial Presence to a passive unnamed Critical Chance buff.

That’s like saying Dk’s Combustion passive shouldn’t increase the damage of burning and poison. I suggested this change for warden to get increased damage with chilled many years ago and I’m glad Zos listened, it’s literally an ice skill line.

Removing it makes literally no sense because it's probably the single most impactful change frost warden has ever recieved.

Did you read my entire suggestion or just half of it?

Untethering the staff from Warden needs to be paired with a complete detachment from how the staff performs as a tank weapon.

An ice destruction staff needs to have passives and skills that focus on damage, not preventing damage.

Frost staves never should have been turned into tank tools years ago around Thieves Guild, and it’s time they consider adding another weapon type for tanks so we can finally have our staff back.

i agree it should have never had a tanking focus, however that's what we are stuck with. there is no way or reason for them to change anything as it is now without messing other roles up.

Which is why Warden is condemned to mediocrity.

They can’t buff Ice Staves for Warden without further taking away build diversity on the class, and they can’t fix the Destruction Staff skill line for damage without taking away their use as a tanking weapon.

It’s quite literally a lose/lose situation either way it’s spun, and you can thank whatever genius dug them a hole with the Frost Staff change years ago.

We have only one way out, and it’s substitution, which would involve an entire new Weapon Skill Line.

Pretty sure the hole was dug by the Lead combat guy at the time Wrobel.

MashmalloMan · November 2023

GusTheWizard wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

No matter what weapon types and abilities are best in a given patch, they all adapt better. No other class is tethered to a weapon type like Warden.

It’s not about being tethered to a weapon it’s about warden and ice staff getting a special buff because ice staff has no damage passive, your free to use any weapon type you want. this isn’t the best way to do this passive imo but that’s how they have it right now. If it were me I’d increase the 2% to like 6% or 7%.

Yeah thats my biggest issue with the passive and recent changes. I wanted frost warden to be more viable, but I didn't want them to destroy any semblence of class identity for non frost staff warden in the process. The delta between the 2 is too large, I feel bad for Stam Wardens, they have 0 class identity right now. They over crit and are forced to use ice staves for damage/skills. I think 6/7% is too high, but should at minimum be 4/5%. Either way, same principle.

I quite liked the old way of 10% mag/frost damage and 2% damage done per companion skill slotted, because it made using frost specific skills more impactful. Now, you can just slot a frost staff and get a free +10% damage done which doesn't actually promote you to use frost skills, it just tells you to hold the staff or gtfo.

Same goes for Winters Revenge, a 30% buff for casting with the staff when something like Boneyard just works for all Necro's based on corpses. Thats the difference between an intuitive mechanic and a shoehorned one.

At the time, I was asking for ZOS to keep the 10% frost/mag passive, but change it to 10% frost/bleed damage, then convert all companion skills to frost/bleed and remove the poison/magic damage types. In ZOS's infinite wisdom, they always attempt to tackle our complaints in the most roundabout way possible, almost to say... "see we listened, but this is OUR idea, not yours."

Meanwhile, the crit damage idea for frost damage was specifically requested by wardens like Nightingale, about the only thing they copy/pasted... then somehow contourted by allowing other non frost staff related access to minor brittle.

The change in class from the 10% crit dmg on chilled enemies to chilled damage was a great change though. The 2%/12% frost staff passive, bad. The 4% crit dmg per slotted companion skill, bad.

To add insult to injury, they gutted Permafrosts damage because it was outpacing Northern Storms damage as a defensive morph.... instead of... you know... buffing Northern Storm as an offensive skill that no one uses.

Now, looking at Endless Archive and how pets can be killed, Warden and Sorc are unfairly hit by this to the point where they need to sacrifice a large chunk of their best dps ceiling to compete, highlighting how terribly designed both of these classes are for DPS in the current meta.

Always feels like 2 steps forward, 1 step back with Warden.