Unwarranted In-Game Account Actions Due to Addons

AmandaLubyk
AmandaLubyk
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@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin

Good Day Folks,

I am writing because over the past month there has been a steady stream of account actions being put on the leadership of guilds I am in. We assumed this had to do with using the add-on "GodSend", which is a mail add-on to send mail to your guild members. It was out of date and long ago abandoned. So, despite me being plagued by health problems and low on energy, and in the interest of saving users from unwarranted account actions, I took on the project of updating the add-on myself. I reviewed the code, fixed a few errors, and quintupled the delay between messages. I tested the add-on to make sure this delay was safe. I sent 3,000 guild messages (detailing upcoming events) between all my guilds in the span of 24 hours. Believing it was safe, I published the updated version of the add-on.

<snip>

What I need from ZOS:
  1. <snip>
  2. I need you to please be clear on what the safe parameters are for sending out guild mail en mass.

Note : I realise that guild mail is but one thing that is sending messages back and forth to the server. ZOS created the ability for app developers to create add-ons for ESO by allowing users to upload and use them; and I understand that you do not take responsibility for these add-ons. What I do not understand is, after reviewing your API documentation, I have yet to find clear information in regards to the delay required between server messages to keep users safe from these account actions being imposed upon them. If I have overlooked this information, please reply with a link to where it is located. If this information is not available, please inform us of what your requirements are for users to not receive account actions whilst being able to send guild mail to all guild members safely.

For leadership (owners and officers) of major guilds, it is essential to be able to communicate with our members. Unfortunately, the MotD is not a functional way to do this, as it has to contain so much information due to events of large guilds and does not highlight recent changes since the user has last looked at it. It has functionally become a way to post basic guild and event schedule information, but not a way to communicate individual event details to members. Most large, active guilds have a Discord server, and ours are no exception, however, not all members choose to use Discord for a variety of reasons (not tech-savvy, uncomfortable with the technology, etc...). So, the absolute best way for us to successfully communicate event details with all members is to mass guild mail to their in-game mailboxes. If you have a better solution to this years-long communication problem, please let us know.

I thank you, in advance, for your time and assistance in this matter.

Kindly,
Amanda

<snipped due to Discussing Disciplinary Actions>
Edited by ZOS_Hadeostry on October 22, 2023 7:56PM
  • phaneub17_ESO
    phaneub17_ESO
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    It could also be someone on the receiving end reported the message as unwanted spam. 1000 players you're bound to get a couple individuals who didn't want to receive the message and promptly submitted a report. If they receive enough reports with the same exact message, it's seen as botting.
  • SilverBride
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    Most large, active guilds have a Discord server, and ours are no exception, however, not all members choose to use Discord for a variety of reasons (not tech-savvy, uncomfortable with the technology, etc...).

    I would make it clear that important guild information would be posted in Discord and if a member chooses not to utilize it then not being up to date is on them.

    I personally do not want to receive mass mail from my guild.
    Edited by SilverBride on October 22, 2023 7:03PM
    PCNA
  • AmandaLubyk
    AmandaLubyk
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    I would make it clear that important guild information would be posted in Discord and if a member chooses not to utilize it then not being up to date is on them.

    I personally do not want to receive mass mail from my guild.

    I do agree with this, but also, we have a lot of older people in our guild who want to take part in events, but refuse to use Discord. Ideally, Discord would be the default, but getting trying to push that on members results in a tangible loss of members. We want to be inclusive. I receive guild bulk mailing from a guild that I do no have leadership in, and I simply read it and delete it. I would not report my guild leadership for spam.
  • SilverBride
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    I do agree with this, but also, we have a lot of older people in our guild who want to take part in events, but refuse to use Discord. Ideally, Discord would be the default, but getting trying to push that on members results in a tangible loss of members. We want to be inclusive. I receive guild bulk mailing from a guild that I do no have leadership in, and I simply read it and delete it. I would not report my guild leadership for spam.

    I wouldn't report my guild if they did this, but I would address it with them.

    Also, not being comfortable with technology isn't an age related thing. There are a lot of tech savvy "older people". Technology has been around for many decades and on Feb. 14, 1946, the world's first general purpose electronic computer was introduced to the world. These aren't new concepts.
    Edited by SilverBride on October 22, 2023 7:50PM
    PCNA
  • ZOS_Hadeostry
    Greetings,

    After further review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic, as it's addon related.

    Thank you for your understanding
    Staff Post
  • AmandaLubyk
    AmandaLubyk
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    I wouldn't report my guild if they did this, but I would address it with them.

    Also, not being comfortable with technology isn't an age related thing. There are a lot of tech savvy "older people". Technology has been around for many decades and on Feb. 14, 1946, the world's first general purpose electronic computer was introduced to the world. These aren't new concepts.

    I would also simply address the guild if I disliked bulk messages. :)

    I agree, not being comfortable with technology is not just an age-related thing, however, from personal experience, it is definitely more common in elderly population. Not a bias, just factual.
  • SilverBride
    SilverBride
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    I agree, not being comfortable with technology is not just an age-related thing, however, from personal experience, it is definitely more common in elderly population. Not a bias, just factual.

    I disagree. I know many very tech savvy "older people" in game and out.

    But this is your guild to run as you see fit. I just suspect you would lose more members over being mail spammed than over having to open discord and read the guild's news of the day.
    Edited by SilverBride on October 22, 2023 9:31PM
    PCNA
  • GooGa592
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    I would make it clear that important guild information would be posted in Discord and if a member chooses not to utilize it then not being up to date is on them.

    I personally do not want to receive mass mail from my guild.

    And I don't want to use Discord. I'd rather get the guild info in guild emails. We shouldn't have to use third party software for guild communication and guild announcements.
  • YetAnotherLinuxUser
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    YOu know if it were me receiving unwanted mail from a guild i would leave the guild before i would report them for spam.

    I am an older person and i am tech savvy, which is why i will never join discord. I hate social media. Most older tech savvy people i know feel the same way.

    In any case, i agree with OP that ZOS should communicate how many mails and how often that can be sent. If they have a standard then that standard needs to be communicated so people can follow it and clearly the OP wishes to obey whatever the standard is. What more could you ask for?

    Sorry for your troubles OP!
  • Jhava
    Jhava
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    Would really like to know what changed, and what the trigger rate is now.

    Op is working hard to retool this add-on to work for guild leaders that use it, so it won't social ban.

    Thanks for the effort AmandaLubyk
  • Soarora
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    I never want guild mail or motd updates or update on Discord. I do not care the happenings of my trade guilds as long as they have a trader. Although I want them to leave me alone, I don't think it's fair to report them for it. Maybe ZOS should update the motd functionality and add another section for additional information (as that is how people I've seen use motd currently).
    Edited by Soarora on October 22, 2023 11:52PM
    PC/NA Dungeoneer (Tank/DPS/Heal), Trialist (DPS/Tank/Heal), and amateur Battlegrounder (DPS) with a passion for The Elder Scrolls lore
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  • reazea
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    Why doesn't ZOS already have an internal exception to this rule built in so it recognizes the guild leader so they can send guild wide mails?
  • Azrael_1976
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    reazea wrote: »
    Why doesn't ZOS already have an internal exception to this rule built in so it recognizes the guild leader so they can send guild wide mails?

    This function ist named message of the day. ;)

    Each member ist notified about changes.
  • hiyde
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    Guild-wide mail is an invaluable tool for active guilds. In nearly a decade of running 2 trading guilds, I can count on one hand (with fingers left over) how many people have complained about it.

    If I had a dollar for every time someone has said "I didn't see that" in the MOTD, Discord, Website or Guild Chat, however, I'd be writing you from my private island. :) If someone is offended by a Guild Officer sending them an e-mail, they have the power of choice to leave the guild and find one that's less communicative. As with any communication/marketing tool, the frequency that it's used / quality of message matters.

    To the OP: We're using the non-updated version of Godsend with no issues. What I've found triggers their system is certain words/phrases they are filtering the mails for. Please feel free to DM me if I can be of any help on that front.
    Edited by hiyde on October 23, 2023 7:30PM
    @Hiyde GM/Founder - Bleakrock Barter Co (Trade Guild - PC/NA) | Blackbriar Barter Co (Trade Guild-PC/NA)
  • AmandaLubyk
    AmandaLubyk
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    @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_Hadeostry

    I did not post here to simply receive opinions about whether or not guilds should or should not send mail to their members. We have enough members who rely on these messages, and nobody has asked us to not send them. We are not alone, and this tool has been one that guild leadership in many guilds have used for years.

    I posted here in hopes for Zenimax to:
      <snip>
    1. provide clarity on their parameters so I can bring this add-on into compliance an keep a very useful tool.

    Bare minimum, I expected some sort of helpful response from Zenimax directly. If they needed more time to look into it and formulate a proper response, they could easily have said this and I would have patiently waited. However, there is a distinct lack of response other than to edit my post and move the forum to a different category. So, someone at Zenimax has seen the post and simply chosen to not respond. I do not understand this, as it goes against all professional etiquette I know of - what is customer support for if not to support the customer?

    If I am unable to receive a response that addresses the problem, I will have no good option other than to pull the add-on. I cannot in good conscience make available a tool that can cause users to have "account actions" imposed upon their accounts and I will not put my name to something that is not safe for others to use based on my own principles.

    <snipped for Violating Community Rules under Discussing Disciplinary Actions>
    Edited by ZOS_Hadeostry on October 26, 2023 7:11PM
  • Freilauftomate
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    The mods are not able to give you answers. They move, delete, ban and sometimes one of them posts a link to the "help section" of the ESO homepage.

    Kevin seems to be the only one trying to talk to "over 20 million players". Gina seems to be online once a week, with other responsibilities (writing patch notes).

    I am pretty sure noone will be able to answer your questions. Maybe Kevin will respond with "we might look into it" if you are lucky. Maybe someone will tell you to open a ticket with customer support, but customer support will most likely not be able to help you with anything either. You would have to be very very lucky.

    Not even other players will be able to help you. Because almost all of the people who could be able to help with something like this already left the game.

    I am sorry if this sounds like "bashing and slanderous comments" to some mods, but this is what your customers are experiencing every day. Left alone in a broken game. We should be allowed to talk about how we feel without fear.
  • observertim
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    I find it interesting that this issue is currently much more of a concern in some guilds than others; of the 3 guilds I deal with, I note the following:

    1. Skeevers - significant issue
    2. Kitty Rainbow Dash - occasional issue
    3. Rusty Old Dragons - nothing (yet).

    This is a pretty clear indication that the problem is being user-driven.

    My issue is that often someone who gets a disciplinary action receives it with little or no information about why, or with information so anonymized as to provide no guidance on how to correct future actions. That has been the case since 2014. Perhaps ZOS could look into its "ban messaging" to provide a bit more clarity. It doesn't have to reveal sensitive information but at least something...

    ObserverTim
    GM, Rusty Old Dragons
  • aquageekb14_ESO
    I am nobody here except a long-time player with an opinion.

    The MOTD seems to always contain the exact same information as it did the day before and the day before that. Being a member of 5 different guilds, I choose not to waste my time re-reading all the same things day after day. While one guild might actually change things on a daily basis, it seems like MOST don't, so my actions are based on what most of the guilds I've been in have done.

    I use Discord, but usually only for voice coms in PVP, or specific guild activities that it is used for. I do not however, spend my time reading all the new posts in all the guild's Discords. I have a life, and it needs some of my hours of the day too.

    I absolutely appreciate getting guild-wide messages letting me know about upcoming events. I don't know how the mass message system works, but maybe there's a way to "opt out" for people who see them as "spam". Regardless, I'm sure that more people appreciate the information relayed than are annoyed about receiving messages to tell them about it. Sure-- If there were 5 or 6 guild emails a week that might get old, but it's NOT happening that often.

    My opinion only -- YMMV.
  • Baertram
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    Mass mailing addons cannot currently opt-out anything as this is totally every addon's setup then.
    And as there is no way to communicate between players everyone would have to even install that extra addon (And then it would only be able to query the opt-out of currently online players again).

    So the only way to technically achieve this is like a small opt-out charcter in each's guild members member note, e.g. add smething there like -| as the very first two characters. This would tell the addon then, once it's implemented to read that 2 chars as "special opt-out" and then it could ignore those at mass mailing.

    There is no other way to achieve this. But reading the guild member notes before sending the emails will be another query to the server! And thus the kick/ban because of message spamming the server could even be more of an issue than before :-(

    imo ZOs should finally implement BETTER guild tools, especially for the mails:
    -Own mail category "Guild lead"
    -Own settings if guild lead emails are wanted or not (opt-out)
    -Tools to send mass mails from the guild-lead (e.g. guild leader adds text and mails will be send over time at the backend without stressing the server).

    One day...
  • Granamere
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    OK I do not really do this name calling think but here goes.

    @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_Hadeostry

    tap tap tap is this on? :)

    If mass mail is not allowed could you point me to that? Totally cool if that is the case. If not recommendations on how to do it within the terms of service is all I would like to know.

    I also get it if you post how to send mass mail then the gold scammer aka bad actors have the info then they can abuse it. I do understand the challenge here. Any chance maybe some sort of in game guild only email feature in the future if the godsend addon is not an option anymore?
  • Dalvarion
    Dalvarion
    Soul Shriven

    I do agree with this, but also, we have a lot of older people in our guild who want to take part in events, but refuse to use Discord. Ideally, Discord would be the default, but getting trying to push that on members results in a tangible loss of members. We want to be inclusive. I receive guild bulk mailing from a guild that I do no have leadership in, and I simply read it and delete it. I would not report my guild leadership for spam.

    I realize you think Discard is the a great program, I do not, in fact I hate those types of programs they open up to many computers to easy access for hackers and I don't trust them myself, I won't use Discard and or any other type of program like that, to make it clear the reason the game has mail is so we can communicate in game and not use a third party source to do so, you may not like the mass mailing but it is easy to delete, where as I prefer to get mail in game and not from some other party source.
  • hiyde
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    Dalvarion wrote: »

    ...Discard...

    Freudian slip? <3
    @Hiyde GM/Founder - Bleakrock Barter Co (Trade Guild - PC/NA) | Blackbriar Barter Co (Trade Guild-PC/NA)
  • Granamere
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    Any updates to this?
  • AmandaLubyk
    AmandaLubyk
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    I have yet to receive a reply.
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