Why did the devs have to ruin Pillar of Nirn?!

Woodenplank · October 2023

Just kidding, they didn't. It was due a nerf.

On this sample build Pillar of Nirn and its competitors should - on optimal proc time - add this much DPS:

Old Pillar Proc DPS: 4990
New Pillar Proc DPS: 3892
Venomous Smite Proc DPS: 3001
Unfathomable Darkness Proc DPS: 2950
Scavenging Demise Proc DPS: 3395.6 (actually hard to proc, only <Poison> crits)
Defiler's Set Proc DPS: 2497.4
Aegis Caller Proc set DPS: 3948.25 (on enemies <standing still> in the AoE)
Gryphon's Reprisal Proc DPS: 2898.6 (scales off of Synergy User)
Flame Blossom Proc DPS: 1938 (AoE, but narrow!)
Shadow of the Red Mountain Proc DPS: 3171.625
Widowmaker Proc DPS: 3601.2 (requires you to use Poison instead of enchants)

So Pillar of Nirn should essentially still be BiS for a damage proc. Only surpassed by Aegis Caller - which in turn only works well when the target(s) stands reliably still.
The fact that the line of Max Stamina is be swapped for Crit means that the set will, in its own way, also perform better.

But why didn't they just buff the alternate sets?!
Fair question. And I believe they often should! A quick glance through that list above (which isn't even exhaustive) shows how pathetically far behind some sets are. However...

The game has powercrept quite steadily for the past 8 years or so. Just compare best crafted set in 2015 (Law of Julianos/Hunding's Rage) with Order's Wrath now.
If the devs continually buffed every dungeon set to be on-par with the best of the best, PVE DPS would just scale wildly with every single content adjustment.
Some sets have uses in PVP where difference in DoT duration, cooldown, and telegraph have a major impact on the set's balance. If Flame Blossom did damage to match (old) Pillar on its burst it would become a stupid one-shot mechanic for Stealthblades (which is already its current use, sort of)

I think the nerf was warranted in any case, and I'm glad the devs did it.
Now if we could see Poisons adjusted to be comparable to Enchants in PVE and a few buffs to the off-brand PVE DPS sets, that'd make my day!

TheGreatBlackBear · October 2023

Woodenplank wrote: »

Now if we could see Poisons adjusted to be comparable to Enchants in PVE and a few buffs to the off-brand PVE DPS sets, that'd make my day!

I remember when double dot poisons were the meta in pve so much so that having morag tong on the tank if you had a comp that was heavy with classes that did poison damage was a real consideration. Then that just died out. Maybe the enchant changes were responsible for that. I remember there was was a wild time where you used rending slashes as a spammable.

Regarding why they don't buff other sets I think the answer is that it's more work for zero change in the state of the game. Realistically unless you buffed every proc set to match PoN players will still choose PoN 9 times out of 10 simply because it does the most damage with no real effort.

Necrotech_Master · October 2023

scavenging demise being a burst proc instead of a dot proc is more used in pvp, especially on gank builds (hitting from stealth or with cloak is guaranteed crit lol)

i wouldnt think anyone in pve would consider using it as a dps set

El_Borracho · October 2023

Because the devs said they wanted to make Aegis Caller stronger. From the PTS patch notesv9.2.0:

We’re finally taking a look at Pillar of Nirn’s place in the game, as we’ve seen it pull ahead of a considerable number of other offensive options over time. Since Pillar only requires a stationary target for its initial hit, we’re trying to better align its power to where it’s weaker than a set like Aegis Caller that requires a more consistent stationary target, while being stronger than directly applied over time effects like Viper’s Sting or Unleashed Terror. Simultaneously, to ease the nerf to the proc and to aid its approachability for build types, we’re adjusting the bonus to be more impactful and universally powerful with Critical Chance.

Why they chose to compare it to 2 trash sets like Vipers or Unleashed is beyond me. But yes, you are in the majority who can not understand why they don't just pump up the other sets instead of watering a set like PoN down. The only reason PoN became meta to begin with was the devs changing the crit cap which made sets like Berserking Warrior or Mother's Sorrow less effective in trials.

PoN is an old set. It came into the game in 2017. Until maybe 2 years ago, most players used it in PVP, where it was very strong. The fact that it became meta fairly recently shows just how many changes to PVE have occurred and how many very, very useless sets are out there that could use work instead of beating down the good sets

Skjaldbjorn · October 2023

El_Borracho wrote: »

Because the devs said they wanted to make Aegis Caller stronger. From the PTS patch notesv9.2.0:

We’re finally taking a look at Pillar of Nirn’s place in the game, as we’ve seen it pull ahead of a considerable number of other offensive options over time. Since Pillar only requires a stationary target for its initial hit, we’re trying to better align its power to where it’s weaker than a set like Aegis Caller that requires a more consistent stationary target, while being stronger than directly applied over time effects like Viper’s Sting or Unleashed Terror. Simultaneously, to ease the nerf to the proc and to aid its approachability for build types, we’re adjusting the bonus to be more impactful and universally powerful with Critical Chance.

Why they chose to compare it to 2 trash sets like Vipers or Unleashed is beyond me. But yes, you are in the majority who can not understand why they don't just pump up the other sets instead of watering a set like PoN down. The only reason PoN became meta to begin with was the devs changing the crit cap which made sets like Berserking Warrior or Mother's Sorrow less effective in trials.

PoN is an old set. It came into the game in 2017. Until maybe 2 years ago, most players used it in PVP, where it was very strong. The fact that it became meta fairly recently shows just how many changes to PVE have occurred and how many very, very useless sets are out there that could use work instead of beating down the good sets

They didn't change the crit cap, it's still 100%. What they did was cap crit damage. Crit is still a super strong stat overall, but the proc set meta change was triggered by having procs scale off offensive stats, which they did not do previously. Having sets like Pillar scale off offensive stats pushed other sets out of the meta pretty hard.

El_Borracho · October 2023

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

Because the devs said they wanted to make Aegis Caller stronger. From the PTS patch notesv9.2.0:

We’re finally taking a look at Pillar of Nirn’s place in the game, as we’ve seen it pull ahead of a considerable number of other offensive options over time. Since Pillar only requires a stationary target for its initial hit, we’re trying to better align its power to where it’s weaker than a set like Aegis Caller that requires a more consistent stationary target, while being stronger than directly applied over time effects like Viper’s Sting or Unleashed Terror. Simultaneously, to ease the nerf to the proc and to aid its approachability for build types, we’re adjusting the bonus to be more impactful and universally powerful with Critical Chance.

Why they chose to compare it to 2 trash sets like Vipers or Unleashed is beyond me. But yes, you are in the majority who can not understand why they don't just pump up the other sets instead of watering a set like PoN down. The only reason PoN became meta to begin with was the devs changing the crit cap which made sets like Berserking Warrior or Mother's Sorrow less effective in trials.

PoN is an old set. It came into the game in 2017. Until maybe 2 years ago, most players used it in PVP, where it was very strong. The fact that it became meta fairly recently shows just how many changes to PVE have occurred and how many very, very useless sets are out there that could use work instead of beating down the good sets

They didn't change the crit cap, it's still 100%. What they did was cap crit damage. Crit is still a super strong stat overall, but the proc set meta change was triggered by having procs scale off offensive stats, which they did not do previously. Having sets like Pillar scale off offensive stats pushed other sets out of the meta pretty hard.

Ahh, that's what I meant. Thank you. Tried to say that a set like Mother's Sorrow would get you above the cap in a group so it was no longer a BiS set. And yeah, the changes to scaling helped a lot.

Skjaldbjorn · October 2023

El_Borracho wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

Because the devs said they wanted to make Aegis Caller stronger. From the PTS patch notesv9.2.0:

We’re finally taking a look at Pillar of Nirn’s place in the game, as we’ve seen it pull ahead of a considerable number of other offensive options over time. Since Pillar only requires a stationary target for its initial hit, we’re trying to better align its power to where it’s weaker than a set like Aegis Caller that requires a more consistent stationary target, while being stronger than directly applied over time effects like Viper’s Sting or Unleashed Terror. Simultaneously, to ease the nerf to the proc and to aid its approachability for build types, we’re adjusting the bonus to be more impactful and universally powerful with Critical Chance.

Why they chose to compare it to 2 trash sets like Vipers or Unleashed is beyond me. But yes, you are in the majority who can not understand why they don't just pump up the other sets instead of watering a set like PoN down. The only reason PoN became meta to begin with was the devs changing the crit cap which made sets like Berserking Warrior or Mother's Sorrow less effective in trials.

PoN is an old set. It came into the game in 2017. Until maybe 2 years ago, most players used it in PVP, where it was very strong. The fact that it became meta fairly recently shows just how many changes to PVE have occurred and how many very, very useless sets are out there that could use work instead of beating down the good sets

They didn't change the crit cap, it's still 100%. What they did was cap crit damage. Crit is still a super strong stat overall, but the proc set meta change was triggered by having procs scale off offensive stats, which they did not do previously. Having sets like Pillar scale off offensive stats pushed other sets out of the meta pretty hard.

Ahh, that's what I meant. Thank you. Tried to say that a set like Mother's Sorrow would get you above the cap in a group so it was no longer a BiS set. And yeah, the changes to scaling helped a lot.

Nah, again, Mother's Sorrow is crit, not crit damage. Crit damage is what ended up capping out, and it's why the Warden passive change to crit damage was so god awful. Crit is still a super valuable stat, but it's hard to compete with the raw scaling damage of proc sets.

merpins · October 2023

Copium, imo.

They need to balance PVE and PVP separately, and buff old sets. Power creep doesn't need to be a thing here, new sets should just be more cool options. It stifles creativity if every new set is just this old set but better. Just make a standard, make sure proc sets sit in that standard, and buff non-proc sets so they perform similarly. More build options, more diversity.

Arizona_Steve · October 2023

The devs do not like us to have fun. If we are having too much fun we get nerfed

Vynera · October 2023

merpins wrote: »

They need to balance PVE and PVP separately

That would require a lot of work and most likely a rewrite of a core feature of the game, and thats not going to happen, at all.
And I'm pretty sure they dont even know how to do that, else the "stuck in combat feature" (which I assume also requires a rework / of the "core combat" code part of the engine/game) would already have been reworked and fixes in the past couple of years.

Woodenplank · October 2023

merpins wrote: »

Copium, imo.

They need to balance PVE and PVP separately, and buff old sets.

I agree they should just do more straight Battle-Spirit checks for balance (like how Rallying Cry does not work in PVE, etc.) to balance separately. But no way in hell they're going to do that for every skill and set in the game. It would be exhausting.
... But I don't see how that has any bearing on Pillar of Nirn being over the top? It's not like it sees use in PVP (only times I'm ever hit with PoN is from 21k health players that are obviously just in daily BG for the XP/transmutes and still use their PVE setup).

Anyhow.
I think power creep is a factor here. So much content nowadays is just faceroll DPS, and you don't need to worry about mechanics. PoN being simultaneously the strongest damage proc (disregarding Relequen, which need stacking) and one of the easiest to keep up was a bit much for one set, I think. And you can call that copium, if you wish.

I do strongly agree that a lot of old sets should be buffed. They don't have to be better or even on par with PoN, but so much old stuff is just... useless, truly. Utility/group sets are all but gone from DD setups.
I for one miss the days when a DD could equip Sunderflame and Morag Tong and still feel like they contributed to the group, even if their personal DPS wasn't like a Youtuber DummyParse.

Woodenplank · October 2023

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

scavenging demise being a burst proc instead of a dot proc is more used in pvp, especially on gank builds (hitting from stealth or with cloak is guaranteed crit lol)

i wouldnt think anyone in pve would consider using it as a dps set

Oh yes I don't consider it a PVE set at all! Same thing goes for Flame Blossom - and I wouldn't consider Defiler at all!
My point was just to list every set I could think of that could possibly be compared to PoN. That is;

Non-Stack building, Non-Minor-Slayer, preferably Medium Armor with a Stam/Mag/Crit/129 Damage bonuses, and a (5)-piece proc that deals damage.

But of course you're right; of the things I listed only 4 or 5 would ever see honest PVE consideration.