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2 Handed Passive - "Forceful" hide damage change (from 100% to 73%) intended or bug?
Hello everyone, I need a clarification about this please:
Screenshots from today:
Passive description -
Light attack damage check -
Heavy attack damage check -
As you see its 73% inflicted damage on other 3 target not 100%.
@ZOS_BrianWheeler , @ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_Kevin could you please leave comments on this.
Thanks in advance.
Edited by PISTOLETVKREDIT on September 4, 2023 9:32AM Screenshots from today:
Passive description -
Light attack damage check -
Heavy attack damage check -
As you see its 73% inflicted damage on other 3 target not 100%.
@ZOS_BrianWheeler , @ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_Kevin could you please leave comments on this.
Thanks in advance.
5
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Amerises✭✭✭✭First thought is CP stars, like single target buff. The other targets are getting hit by an AoE rather than a ST hit.0
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I didnt slot any blue stars for the test. My penetration was 4613.
@ZOS_BrianWheeler , @ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_Kevin any comments please?0 -
KlauthWarthog✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭PISTOLETVKREDIT wrote: »I didnt slot any blue stars for the test. My penetration was 4613.
@ZOS_BrianWheeler , @ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_Kevin any comments please?
So the dummies had 13587 resistance left, which is about 27% damage mitigation. That is why you are dealing 73% damage to the other dummies.5 -
1st - the description of passive says - "inflicted 100% damage" so all 4 numbers should be the same. There is nothing about pen or cp stars and so on. Logic - penetration not working on other targets makes no sense.
2nd - test with zero penentation:
Edited by PISTOLETVKREDIT on September 5, 2023 11:53AM0 -
KlauthWarthog✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Well, your second test confirms that penetration is factored into the actual damage inflicted to the secondary targets.
0 penetration means 18200 resistance, which equals 36.4% mitigation, and 1225 is indeed 63.60% of 1926.
100% of the original damage is copied to the new targets, and then their mitigation kicks in, and the actual damage inflicted is modified accordingly.5 -
So you are saying penetration is factored twice? 1st target 18200 + second target 18200? And to reach 4 equial numbers my penetration should be 36 400 ?
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KlauthWarthog✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭PISTOLETVKREDIT wrote: »So you are saying penetration is factored twice? 1st target 18200 + second target 18200? And to reach 4 equial numbers my penetration should be 36 400 ?
Penetration is applied individually to each target. If you have 18200 penetration, you will reduce the mitigation of the first target to 0, and reduce the mitigation of the secondary targets to 0 as well.
Another example: if you have 8200 penetration, you will reduce the dummies' resistance to 10000 each, which is 20% mitigation.
If your attack would do 5000 damage to the first target, its mitigation will reduce the damage to 4000.
This 4000 will be copied to the secondary targets. They also have 20% mitigation, so the final damage to the secondary targets will be 3200.1 -
I did test with 18200 + cap penetration - the result is equial numbers. Here you are right.
But if you are not on the cap you should pass this pen/mitigation check twice for 1st and 2nd target. My question is why should it count mitigation twice? My character has for example 8200 own penetration (not debuffs on target) and no matter what i hit it should calculate 8200 pen (20% mitigation, ((PVE 18200 cap)). But here it is calculate like 8200 for the 1st stage = 1 *0.8 =0.8% dmg and than another 0.8*0.8 = 0.64% dmg.for 2nd stage.
For example if you have more than 2 stages in this calculation and 0 penetration you will see this:
Just think, the penetration remains the same the targets defences are the same but the 1st stage target and the last stage target will receive the different numbers. You see 5th stage is alrdy 10 %.
If the game numbers are calculated like this it is incorrect.
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Dagoth_Rac✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The original damage was already mitigated by the first mob's armor. It should not get mitigated again by the other mob's armor. This kind of "double dipping", of everything from crit chance to healing to damage, is something ZOS have taken steps to eliminate in a lot of other areas of combat. I am not sure why this one skill would be an exception. Seems like an oversight.6 -
Amerises✭✭✭✭Dagoth_Rac wrote: »The original damage was already mitigated by the first mob's armor. It should not get mitigated again by the other mob's armor. This kind of "double dipping", of everything from crit chance to healing to damage, is something ZOS have taken steps to eliminate in a lot of other areas of combat. I am not sure why this one skill would be an exception. Seems like an oversight.
Yeah, that’s pretty interesting, and a little misleading at first glance, however I think either counting it once and copying the damage or “double dipping” makes sense. Not sure it’s an oversight as much as a mechanic decision.1 -
JerBearESO✭✭✭✭Could be PvP cleave related? If intended I mean, I would be a countermeasure to the cleave from NPC enemy problem a bit. Does this happen with lightning heavy? That would be a bit of an indicator as to whether it's intended design or not.0
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Necrotech_Master✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭JerBearESO wrote: »Could be PvP cleave related? If intended I mean, I would be a countermeasure to the cleave from NPC enemy problem a bit. Does this happen with lightning heavy? That would be a bit of an indicator as to whether it's intended design or not.
i believe so, mitigation is still taken into account with the splash dmg
the only part that these passives ignore would be battle spirit because the dmg would be "double dipping" on that (-50% dmg on the initial attack, so if battle spirit applied to the splash it would be reduced by another 50% before accounting for mitigation)
that part tends to cause problems when the thing being attacked is an NPC lolplays PC/NA
handle @Necrotech_Master
active player since april 2014
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feel free to stop by and use the facilities0 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭JerBearESO wrote: »Could be PvP cleave related? If intended I mean, I would be a countermeasure to the cleave from NPC enemy problem a bit. Does this happen with lightning heavy? That would be a bit of an indicator as to whether it's intended design or not.
Adding to this, you would not want the splash damage to be dealt without checking the recipient's mitigation. Imagine hitting a glass cannon and the nearby tank with capped resistances feels the same impact.
I think it should be changed so all targets in the area receive the same base hit, then each one calculates mitigation only using their individual resistances. Basically how every other AoE ability works (Pulsar, Whirling Blades, Scythe).Edited by WrathOfInnos on September 8, 2023 1:02PM4 -
Mr_Jord_Joe✭✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »JerBearESO wrote: »Could be PvP cleave related? If intended I mean, I would be a countermeasure to the cleave from NPC enemy problem a bit. Does this happen with lightning heavy? That would be a bit of an indicator as to whether it's intended design or not.
Adding to this, you would not want the splash damage to be dealt without checking the recipient's mitigation. Imagine hitting a glass cannon and the nearby tank with capped resistances feels the same impact.
I think it should be changed so all targets in the area receive the same base hit, then each one calculates mitigation only using their individual resistances. Basically how every other AoE ability works (Pulsar, Whirling Blades, Scythe).
Free AOE? Maybe this not happens, ZoS nerfed HA of staff because this insane stuff...0 -
aru✭✭✭Probably has an answer with penetration or something, but it'd be good to have a response from developers.0 -
sleepy_worm✭✭✭✭I think you should assume that a non-response is confirmation that it is working as intended.0 -
KlauthWarthog✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I am inclined to believe that communication is actively prevented by the game's management.
This is a simple question with a binary answer - intended or not intended.
And not even that gets an answer around here anymore.2 -
Panderbander✭✭✭✭✭Just replace every instance of the word "damage" with "crown store" or "crowns". You'll get a response ASAPLeader of Lycan Syndicate, PC NA's tri-faction werewolf guild.~~~Played since the beta, got the monkey.~~~"The blood of the pack is now yours. They are your only family, your only allegiance!"0 -
CameraBeardThePirate✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'm confused - your question was answered by a player already?
Forceful takes 100% of the damage you deal to someone, and deals that damage to everyone nearby.
However, their mitigation will apply to the damage still, so it won't be exactly 100% damage.0 -
Zodiarkslayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭Well, Id like to know why it says one thing in the tool tip and does another in the game.
And if it is intended to work this way, I'd like to have an explanation. Well, actually a simple confirmation would be okay at this point.If anyone here says: OH! But, PVP! I swear I'll ...
Thank you for the valuable input and respectfully recommend to discuss that aspect of ESO on the PVP forum.0 -
Galeriano✭✭✭✭✭
✭Dagoth_Rac wrote: »The original damage was already mitigated by the first mob's armor. It should not get mitigated again by the other mob's armor. This kind of "double dipping", of everything from crit chance to healing to damage, is something ZOS have taken steps to eliminate in a lot of other areas of combat. I am not sure why this one skill would be an exception. Seems like an oversight.
Not entirely an oversight. Imagine simple situation in PvP where for example You apply bunch of resistance debuffs to one enemy lowering his resistances to almost zero. It would be a bit wierd for enemies around him to get full damage value without taking their resistances into consideration.1 -
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