ZOS should enforce roles, and should enforce clearing all the main bosses/mobs in every dungeon. There are plenty of ways for ZOS to do this, and to stop speedrunners/fake roles.

That would again make dungeonruns as they always should have been.

PS: Even see the problem of speedrunners/fake roles being discussed in zone chat quite often.
PPS: I have decided to no longer spend any money on ESO as long as the speedrunners and fake roles issues aren't fixed!

Sarannah wrote: »

ZOS should enforce roles, and should enforce clearing all the main bosses/mobs in every dungeon. There are plenty of ways for ZOS to do this, and to stop speedrunners/fake roles.

That would again make dungeonruns as they always should have been.

PS: Even see the problem of speedrunners/fake roles being discussed in zone chat quite often.
PPS: I have decided to no longer spend any money on ESO as long as the speedrunners and fake roles issues aren't fixed!

So you admit for yourself, that the way how dungeons work in eso has never been to your liking.

Take your ideas about enforced content and look for a game that suits your taste. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Sarannah wrote: »

ZOS should enforce roles, and should enforce clearing all the main bosses/mobs in every dungeon. There are plenty of ways for ZOS to do this, and to stop speedrunners/fake roles.

That would again make dungeonruns as they always should have been.

PS: Even see the problem of speedrunners/fake roles being discussed in zone chat quite often.
PPS: I have decided to no longer spend any money on ESO as long as the speedrunners and fake roles issues aren't fixed!

Thankfully the way dungeonruns are supposed to be is up to ZOS and not to you.

You will barely ever do a dungeon more then 1 or 2 times for the story while those speedrunners have probably done that same dungeon dozens of times.
If you are in a position where you want to farm gear for a dungeon set you will understand them.

Ohw, come on... everyone knows the way dungeons work in ESO is terribly flawed. Luckily ZOS has realized this with any new dungeons they released, they should just revisit the old dungeons to implement this as well, to make the entire problem go away.

There is a reason why every other MMO has dungeons on rails, so everyone can get out of the dungeons what they want, and so everyone has a pleasant experience in them. Because other MMO's have realized many players will abuse anything and anyone if they get the chance. Which is exactly what the amount of fake roles and speedrunners proves, those other MMO's were 100% right to do this.

I know this goes against the "Play as you want" motto, but being forced to run after a speedrunner or being forced to wait out yet another queue because someone skipped the line as a fake role, isn't exactly "Play as you want" either. It is the opposite really, and is not "freedom of choice" as you liked to call it.

PS: I have done practically every dungeon atleast a dozen times, even have most vet dungeon achievements. I used to love running dungeons, both in ESO and other MMO's. But right now I'm not touching that part of the game at all, due to how some/many players abuse how this part works. For me as a gamer, running dungeons has always been fun and should remain fun. I'm not one of those players only running to the end for the reward, even though I want to get in and out as fast as reasonably possible.

Braffin wrote: »

Why don't you play those "best out there" but try to change a game, which many of us enjoy for years instead?

So all those (new) players having bad experiences in dungeons, does in your opinion not outweight, getting a few keys and transmutes a little bit faster for the veteran players?
All I read in this statement is: "I don't care how many players have bad experiences or how many new players have quit the game because of this issue, as long as I get my dungeon rewards all is well."

Which is a weird stance to take, because if the game loses too many players and no new players flow into/stick with the game, the game is doomed. So I really hope ZOS does not see things your way.

PS: This issue is also causing practically noone to flow into the endgame anymore, as it interrupts the natural flow from easy to hard content.

Sarannah wrote: »

Ohw, come on... everyone knows the way dungeons work in ESO is terribly flawed. Luckily ZOS has realized this with any new dungeons they released, they should just revisit the old dungeons to implement this as well, to make the entire problem go away.

There is a reason why every other MMO has dungeons on rails, so everyone can get out of the dungeons what they want, and so everyone has a pleasant experience in them. Because other MMO's have realized many players will abuse anything and anyone if they get the chance. Which is exactly what the amount of fake roles and speedrunners proves, those other MMO's were 100% right to do this.

I know this goes against the "Play as you want" motto, but being forced to run after a speedrunner or being forced to wait out yet another queue because someone skipped the line as a fake role, isn't exactly "Play as you want" either. It is the opposite really, and is not "freedom of choice" as you liked to call it.

PS: I have done practically every dungeon atleast a dozen times, even have most vet dungeon achievements. I used to love running dungeons, both in ESO and other MMO's. But right now I'm not touching that part of the game at all, due to how some/many players abuse how this part works. For me as a gamer, running dungeons has always been fun and should remain fun. I'm not one of those players only running to the end for the reward, even though I want to get in and out as fast as reasonably possible.

Braffin wrote: »

Why don't you play those "best out there" but try to change a game, which many of us enjoy for years instead?

So all those (new) players having bad experiences in dungeons, does in your opinion not outweight, getting a few keys and transmutes a little bit faster for the veteran players?
All I read in this statement is: "I don't care how many players have bad experiences or how many new players have quit the game because of this issue, as long as I get my dungeon rewards all is well."

Which is a weird stance to take, because if the game loses too many players and no new players flow into/stick with the game, the game is doomed. So I really hope ZOS does not see things your way.

PS: This issue is also causing practically noone to flow into the endgame anymore, as it interrupts the natural flow from easy to hard content.

everyone knows the way dungeons work in ESO is terribly flawed

That's utter nonsense. They are terribly flawed in your opinion. That's a difference, as your personal likings aren't compulsory for us others. You can accept that or live with the opposition to your crusade.

There is a reason why every other MMO has dungeons on rails, so everyone can get out of the dungeons what they want, and so everyone has a pleasant experience in them.

Yes, there is a reason for that. Other mmos don't give players even 10% of the options regarding build diversity as eso and work with vertical progression on top of that. Additionally normal mode rewards significantly worse than veteran in every other mmo.

Nonetheless most other mmos removed the necessity for roles in lower difficulty modes and let players choose to run in a group of 4 dds.

I know this goes against the "Play as you want" motto, but being forced to run after a speedrunner or being forced to wait out yet another queue because someone skipped the line as a fake role, isn't exactly "Play as you want" either. It is the opposite really, and is not "freedom of choice" as you liked to call it.

You once again refuse to accept, that "random" means "random", so you aren't guaranteed to get a group with the same expectations as yourself. That's why I always emphasize the need of communication in group content. You on the other hand refuse to being bothered with talking about expectations or looking for likeminded people and try to degrade other players (real humans, ya know?) to some extended npc instead, which has to play as you want by enforcing rigid and artifical rules to the game.

Look I play dungeons slowly regularily, but I'd never presumptuously expect others to play as I want by default. You do, that's why you are a problem. Your mode isn't default mode, but one among others. The speedrunners are customers like you and do nothing wrong. They aren't worth less because of that.

So all those (new) players having bad experiences in dungeons, does in your opinion not outweight, getting a few keys and transmutes a little bit faster for the veteran players?

You aren't a new player, but a quite seasoned one (despite I doubt it's fitting to call you veteran). Most players slow down for real newbies, I definitely do so and regularily help them getting in touch with dungeons for their first time.

But I definitely wouldn't do that for seasoned fake dds, who gimp themselves and their groups due to stubbornness, hating of the combat system and participating completely unprepared for content. They aren't damage dealers, they are fake.

All I read in this statement is: "I don't care how many players have bad experiences or how many new players have quit the game because of this issue, as long as I get my dungeon rewards all is well."

No, you are the one disinterested in the experience of others. Seemingly a lot of players enjoy to speedrun content. We see that ingame, as most groups do so. (Even new player request speedruns quite often to farm gear.) And we see that here in forums, where most participants refuse your "solutions". Yes, that only anecdotal evidence, but at least more than you have to offer: personal opinions sold as general truth without any evidence.

PS: This issue is also causing practically noone to flow into the endgame anymore, as it interrupts the natural flow from easy to hard content.

Are you an endgamer? No, you aren't according to your own statements:

You hate the combat system (especially LA weaving and the need for rotations), dislike PvP, communication in groups, engaging content and pretend addons as cheating.

So really, you hate every mmo-aspect of this game. Maybe it's time to move on.

Sarannah wrote: »

Ohw, come on... everyone knows the way dungeons work in ESO is terribly flawed. Luckily ZOS has realized this with any new dungeons they released, they should just revisit the old dungeons to implement this as well, to make the entire problem go away.

There is a reason why every other MMO has dungeons on rails, so everyone can get out of the dungeons what they want, and so everyone has a pleasant experience in them. Because other MMO's have realized many players will abuse anything and anyone if they get the chance. Which is exactly what the amount of fake roles and speedrunners proves, those other MMO's were 100% right to do this.

I know this goes against the "Play as you want" motto, but being forced to run after a speedrunner or being forced to wait out yet another queue because someone skipped the line as a fake role, isn't exactly "Play as you want" either. It is the opposite really, and is not "freedom of choice" as you liked to call it.

PS: I have done practically every dungeon atleast a dozen times, even have most vet dungeon achievements. I used to love running dungeons, both in ESO and other MMO's. But right now I'm not touching that part of the game at all, due to how some/many players abuse how this part works. For me as a gamer, running dungeons has always been fun and should remain fun. I'm not one of those players only running to the end for the reward, even though I want to get in and out as fast as reasonably possible.

Braffin wrote: »

Why don't you play those "best out there" but try to change a game, which many of us enjoy for years instead?

So all those (new) players having bad experiences in dungeons, does in your opinion not outweight, getting a few keys and transmutes a little bit faster for the veteran players?
All I read in this statement is: "I don't care how many players have bad experiences or how many new players have quit the game because of this issue, as long as I get my dungeon rewards all is well."

Which is a weird stance to take, because if the game loses too many players and no new players flow into/stick with the game, the game is doomed. So I really hope ZOS does not see things your way.

PS: This issue is also causing practically noone to flow into the endgame anymore, as it interrupts the natural flow from easy to hard content.

Give me a call when you have done every dungeon a few hundreds of times. End game is trials for pve there is no natural flow from dungeoneering to it. I started doing vet trials long before vet dungeons and then finally started doing hm as i was working through trial hms during days i wasnt progging. There is no natural flow of content from easy to hard in eso. The difficulty jump between normal-vet-hm is miles. If you dont look outside of the game you will never get to be competent in any semblance of difficult content. fun fact- high level trial folks don't always play with traditional group comps either. Sometimes we have solo healers, solo tanks, sometimes both, sometimes 3 tanks. It depends. You need to be able to adjust for content.

Second- and i know most people dont want to hear this- out of all the daily randoms dungeons ive run in the last few months when i have asked if anyone was opposed to a speed run 9/10x they said no.. and i do ask, almost every time unless its obvious one way or the other.

Sarannah wrote: »

Ohw, come on... everyone knows the way dungeons work in ESO is terribly flawed. Luckily ZOS has realized this with any new dungeons they released, they should just revisit the old dungeons to implement this as well, to make the entire problem go away.

There is a reason why every other MMO has dungeons on rails, so everyone can get out of the dungeons what they want, and so everyone has a pleasant experience in them. Because other MMO's have realized many players will abuse anything and anyone if they get the chance. Which is exactly what the amount of fake roles and speedrunners proves, those other MMO's were 100% right to do this.

I know this goes against the "Play as you want" motto, but being forced to run after a speedrunner or being forced to wait out yet another queue because someone skipped the line as a fake role, isn't exactly "Play as you want" either. It is the opposite really, and is not "freedom of choice" as you liked to call it.

PS: I have done practically every dungeon atleast a dozen times, even have most vet dungeon achievements. I used to love running dungeons, both in ESO and other MMO's. But right now I'm not touching that part of the game at all, due to how some/many players abuse how this part works. For me as a gamer, running dungeons has always been fun and should remain fun. I'm not one of those players only running to the end for the reward, even though I want to get in and out as fast as reasonably possible.

Braffin wrote: »

Why don't you play those "best out there" but try to change a game, which many of us enjoy for years instead?

So all those (new) players having bad experiences in dungeons, does in your opinion not outweight, getting a few keys and transmutes a little bit faster for the veteran players?
All I read in this statement is: "I don't care how many players have bad experiences or how many new players have quit the game because of this issue, as long as I get my dungeon rewards all is well."

Which is a weird stance to take, because if the game loses too many players and no new players flow into/stick with the game, the game is doomed. So I really hope ZOS does not see things your way.

PS: This issue is also causing practically noone to flow into the endgame anymore, as it interrupts the natural flow from easy to hard content.

Everyone should be treated fairly, you are advocating for a system long term customer need to have a worse experience in order to have new customers.

What kind of discriminatory treatment is this? Existing customers should not be guilt tripped into caring for the needs of new customers.

Vets are paying customers, not servants, if a new customer want servants, either ask nicely or go find paid carry.

You guys always assume not speedrunning is going extremely slow or listening to the story, it is not. That is just hyperbole and exaggeration.

There is a difference between going fast, and going speedrunner fast. I too like to complete dungeons as fast as I can, but in a reasonably fast way. This I also stated in my previous post.

Huge difference. And having to kill all main bosses and main mobs will barely slow down real veteran players, where dungeons maybe take 2-3 minutes more to complete. And in my opinion that slight time difference doesn't outweight all the bad experiences and problems it causes.

Braffin wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Ohw, come on... everyone knows the way dungeons work in ESO is terribly flawed. Luckily ZOS has realized this with any new dungeons they released, they should just revisit the old dungeons to implement this as well, to make the entire problem go away.

There is a reason why every other MMO has dungeons on rails, so everyone can get out of the dungeons what they want, and so everyone has a pleasant experience in them. Because other MMO's have realized many players will abuse anything and anyone if they get the chance. Which is exactly what the amount of fake roles and speedrunners proves, those other MMO's were 100% right to do this.

I know this goes against the "Play as you want" motto, but being forced to run after a speedrunner or being forced to wait out yet another queue because someone skipped the line as a fake role, isn't exactly "Play as you want" either. It is the opposite really, and is not "freedom of choice" as you liked to call it.

PS: I have done practically every dungeon atleast a dozen times, even have most vet dungeon achievements. I used to love running dungeons, both in ESO and other MMO's. But right now I'm not touching that part of the game at all, due to how some/many players abuse how this part works. For me as a gamer, running dungeons has always been fun and should remain fun. I'm not one of those players only running to the end for the reward, even though I want to get in and out as fast as reasonably possible.

Braffin wrote: »

Why don't you play those "best out there" but try to change a game, which many of us enjoy for years instead?

So all those (new) players having bad experiences in dungeons, does in your opinion not outweight, getting a few keys and transmutes a little bit faster for the veteran players?
All I read in this statement is: "I don't care how many players have bad experiences or how many new players have quit the game because of this issue, as long as I get my dungeon rewards all is well."

Which is a weird stance to take, because if the game loses too many players and no new players flow into/stick with the game, the game is doomed. So I really hope ZOS does not see things your way.

PS: This issue is also causing practically noone to flow into the endgame anymore, as it interrupts the natural flow from easy to hard content.

everyone knows the way dungeons work in ESO is terribly flawed

That's utter nonsense. They are terribly flawed in your opinion. That's a difference, as your personal likings aren't compulsory for us others. You can accept that or live with the opposition to your crusade.
1) Not just my opinion, every other MMO has these safeguards in place, to make sure nothing and noone is abused. What happens without those safeguards, is what we see in ESO. This has nothing to do with my likings, but everything to do with common decency, and normal MMO rulesets. No matter how you word it or how you try to defend it, players are abusing the dungeonfinder to get quick access. No matter how you word it or how you try to defend it, players are abusing others by speedrunning through dungeons.

There is a reason why every other MMO has dungeons on rails, so everyone can get out of the dungeons what they want, and so everyone has a pleasant experience in them.

Yes, there is a reason for that. Other mmos don't give players even 10% of the options regarding build diversity as eso and work with vertical progression on top of that. Additionally normal mode rewards significantly worse than veteran in every other mmo.

Nonetheless most other mmos removed the necessity for roles in lower difficulty modes and let players choose to run in a group of 4 dds.
2)You misunderstood, this isn't really about the roles themselves, this is about players abusing the queue for a fake role. And about players being able to skip the dungeon parts in a dungeonrun just to get to the final boss for the rewards. A vertical progression system does not mean dungeons are not dungeons. These players just want a single boss in a room, instead of a dungeon. To me that seems they should not be queueing for dungeons at all. To my knowledge there isn't any MMO without a forced role system, or without an on-rails dungeon run(except ESO).

I know this goes against the "Play as you want" motto, but being forced to run after a speedrunner or being forced to wait out yet another queue because someone skipped the line as a fake role, isn't exactly "Play as you want" either. It is the opposite really, and is not "freedom of choice" as you liked to call it.

You once again refuse to accept, that "random" means "random", so you aren't guaranteed to get a group with the same expectations as yourself. That's why I always emphasize the need of communication in group content. You on the other hand refuse to being bothered with talking about expectations or looking for likeminded people and try to degrade other players (real humans, ya know?) to some extended npc instead, which has to play as you want by enforcing rigid and artifical rules to the game.

Look I play dungeons slowly regularily, but I'd never presumptuously expect others to play as I want by default. You do, that's why you are a problem. Your mode isn't default mode, but one among others. The speedrunners are customers like you and do nothing wrong. They aren't worth less because of that.
3)Random means the dungeon, the roles are predetermined. Players abuse that role system to skip the queue. Expectations.... killing mobs and bosses in a dungeon is now a strange expectation? Killing things in a dungeon is the entire reason for a dungeon. You seem to just want a single boss in a room, and claim that is a dungeon you should get dungeoncomplete rewards for.
There is no communicating with fake roles or speedrunners, they do whatever they want. If there is a fake role we could kick yes, but then we'd again be stuck in a long queue due to one person skipping the line without any regards for their fellow players(this is not even mentioning the times they get a DLC dungeon and bail). If there is a speedrunner the best one can do is keep up, as we can't kick in combat and we have no choice in the matter in if they speedrun without any regard for the other players(often players even miss out on loot). So communication doesn't work in either of those cases, but it sounds nice on the forums when you are defending that behaviour. Hopefully ZOS sees through that.
It is the fake roles and speedrunners who should find their own group, as they have no real intention of doing groupplay and are only there to abuse other players. Stop trying to turn things around.

So all those (new) players having bad experiences in dungeons, does in your opinion not outweight, getting a few keys and transmutes a little bit faster for the veteran players?

You aren't a new player, but a quite seasoned one (despite I doubt it's fitting to call you veteran). Most players slow down for real newbies, I definitely do so and regularily help them getting in touch with dungeons for their first time.

But I definitely wouldn't do that for seasoned fake dds, who gimp themselves and their groups due to stubbornness, hating of the combat system and participating completely unprepared for content. They aren't damage dealers, they are fake.
4)Most real players may slow down for new players, but not fake role and speedrun players. As they do what they want without any regards for the other players in there, which is why this is such a widespread issue right now. Less and less real players run dungeon anymore.
Again the fake DD excuse, in 100's of dungeons I have only had a handful of bad DD groups. Also, fake DD's are the result of fake roles and speedrunners, as no player can learn their role in normal dungeons anymore. The place where they should learn their role and groupplay. So the entire chain from low to high difficulty in ESO is currently broken, with barely anyone flowing to endgame anymore.
Maybe if players could learn their role, like we all could, the fake DD problem you experience may go away.
And no, I'm not a new player and I love ESO, and even I have stopped running dungeons. That should be a major red flag. At the moment I put up with this, but any player not already invested into the game will probably quit after having a terrbile experience. The chances of a player like this making it through to endgame, is getting smaller and smaller every day.

All I read in this statement is: "I don't care how many players have bad experiences or how many new players have quit the game because of this issue, as long as I get my dungeon rewards all is well."

No, you are the one disinterested in the experience of others. Seemingly a lot of players enjoy to speedrun content. We see that ingame, as most groups do so. (Even new player request speedruns quite often to farm gear.) And we see that here in forums, where most participants refuse your "solutions". Yes, that only anecdotal evidence, but at least more than you have to offer: personal opinions sold as general truth without any evidence.
5)Lets say you are right, and many speedrunners enjoy speedrunning... is that worth the costs? At the expense of new players, at the expense of the current playerbase, at the expense of dungeons themselves, at the expense of the low-to-high difficulty flow of the game? These players are only looking for a single boss in a room, they are not there for a dungeon.
With my suggestions a dungeon may take 2-3 minutes longer for veteran players, but everyone would get out of it what they want and would have a pleasant experience while doing so. A speedrunner(and fake role) has a high cost of affecting three other players negatively.
I want everyone to have a good experience in dungeons, and so do other MMO's. Which is why they have rulesets and set roles and why their dungeons are on-rails. Making a dungeon a bad experience in other MMO's is almost impossible, which is why I feel ESO should do the same. I find it weird some players expect anything but a regular MMO fashion dungeonrun, and that they are ok with the current state of dungeons.

PS: This issue is also causing practically noone to flow into the endgame anymore, as it interrupts the natural flow from easy to hard content.

Are you an endgamer? No, you aren't according to your own statements:

You hate the combat system (especially LA weaving and the need for rotations), dislike PvP, communication in groups, engaging content and pretend addons as cheating.

So really, you hate every mmo-aspect of this game. Maybe it's time to move on.
6)No I am not an endgamer, but when some of the endgame community left recently with U35, it became apparent not many players flow into endgame anymore. Which is in part caused by the dungeonfinder abuse, as practically noone can learn their role/groupplay anymore. Nor flow to higher content, as the low-to-high difficulty flow in ESO is broken because of this issue.
I do not dislike the combat system, I just feel it should have more playstyles available. Gatekeeping endgame content behind only one playstyle isn't good for both the endgame community and the game itself, which U35 proved.
The PvP in MMO's like this isn't my cup of tea, as I am used to a much more high speed and more intense MMO PvP. But I have gotten too old for that now. I do feel ZOS should revitalize PvP though, but that is another discussion.
Have nothing against communication, but there is no communicating with speedrunners and fake roles. And even if there was, those entire acts have shown they do not have even the slightest regards for other players. Otherwise they would not speedrun and fake role, as neither of those acts are by accident.

You made it quite hard to respond to this with quotes, so I will respond with numbered replies(1-6 Italic).

Braffin wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Ohw, come on... everyone knows the way dungeons work in ESO is terribly flawed. Luckily ZOS has realized this with any new dungeons they released, they should just revisit the old dungeons to implement this as well, to make the entire problem go away.

There is a reason why every other MMO has dungeons on rails, so everyone can get out of the dungeons what they want, and so everyone has a pleasant experience in them. Because other MMO's have realized many players will abuse anything and anyone if they get the chance. Which is exactly what the amount of fake roles and speedrunners proves, those other MMO's were 100% right to do this.

I know this goes against the "Play as you want" motto, but being forced to run after a speedrunner or being forced to wait out yet another queue because someone skipped the line as a fake role, isn't exactly "Play as you want" either. It is the opposite really, and is not "freedom of choice" as you liked to call it.

PS: I have done practically every dungeon atleast a dozen times, even have most vet dungeon achievements. I used to love running dungeons, both in ESO and other MMO's. But right now I'm not touching that part of the game at all, due to how some/many players abuse how this part works. For me as a gamer, running dungeons has always been fun and should remain fun. I'm not one of those players only running to the end for the reward, even though I want to get in and out as fast as reasonably possible.

Braffin wrote: »

Why don't you play those "best out there" but try to change a game, which many of us enjoy for years instead?

So all those (new) players having bad experiences in dungeons, does in your opinion not outweight, getting a few keys and transmutes a little bit faster for the veteran players?
All I read in this statement is: "I don't care how many players have bad experiences or how many new players have quit the game because of this issue, as long as I get my dungeon rewards all is well."

Which is a weird stance to take, because if the game loses too many players and no new players flow into/stick with the game, the game is doomed. So I really hope ZOS does not see things your way.

PS: This issue is also causing practically noone to flow into the endgame anymore, as it interrupts the natural flow from easy to hard content.

Everyone should be treated fairly, you are advocating for a system long term customer need to have a worse experience in order to have new customers.

What kind of discriminatory treatment is this? Existing customers should not be guilt tripped into caring for the needs of new customers.

Vets are paying customers, not servants, if a new customer want servants, either ask nicely or go find paid carry.

I agree in general, but they aren't only propagandizing against existing customers, which adjust tempo and tactics to keep dungeons interesting after countless runs, but also against any newer player which isn't following their "everything has to be slow-paced and easy every single time". A lot of newer folks prefer quick runs to get their gear farmed more quickly.

These veteran fake dds are just using newer players as bad excuse. They aren't interested in the new player experience, but only in their own.And the whole server should obliege to their personal tastes.

How on earth would having to run a dungeon in a normal MMO fashion be a guilt trip to veteran players? Keep in mind, we all had to learn the game at some point. The only ones who should feel a guilttrip are the speedrunners and fake role players, as they know they are doing something that isn't right.
Running an MMO dungeon in a normal MMO fashion should be expected in an MMO, just because the speedrunner/fake role abuse exists, does not make it right to do so. That is not a "worse experience" in any way, but an expected experience. Two or three minutes more per dungeon isn't that much longer, and certainly not a worse experience than double or triple queues or missing out on loot, as is happening quite often to players right now. A dungeon isn't just a final boss in a room, why should players be allowed to act like it is? Dungeons do need specific rulesets in my opinion, so abuse is no longer possible. At worst it would take veteran players 2-3 minutes longer per dungeon(keep in mind, we are basically only talking about base game dungeons, as most DLC dungeons already have these safeguards in place). To totally make the dungeonfinder abuse go away, I don't feel that is a bad tradeoff. Especially since every other MMO does dungeons like that already. Meaning it would not go against anyone's expectations of what an MMO should provide.

MMO's are meant to be played for a long time, so having a new player immediately fill out their stickerbook seems wrong to me. As this happens over time as well, even if they do not farm for it. And a dungeon taking 2-3 minutes longer does not change farming for gear much, if at all. Your example of a new player is also leaving out all those players who have quit due to the fake role/speedrunner problem, which neither of us know how many that are. And is also leaving out how many players are now stuck at basic gameplay(overland/normals), as they cannot progress to the higher endgame content.

There are also some veteran players(like me), who are no longer queueing for dungeons, due to how the dungeonfinder is abused. As it is no longer fun, a game should be fun.

As I always play tank, I have never queue'd as a DD. (sprinting after a speedrunner isn't fun)

PS: For the record, I'm not saying there aren't many helpful and awesome players out there. As in my opinion ESO has one of the best communities of all MMO's.

Sarannah wrote: »

You guys always assume not speedrunning is going extremely slow or listening to the story, it is not. That is just hyperbole and exaggeration.

There is a difference between going fast, and going speedrunner fast. I too like to complete dungeons as fast as I can, but in a reasonably fast way. This I also stated in my previous post.

Huge difference. And having to kill all main bosses and main mobs will barely slow down real veteran players, where dungeons maybe take 2-3 minutes more to complete. And in my opinion that slight time difference doesn't outweight all the bad experiences and problems it causes.

Braffin wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Ohw, come on... everyone knows the way dungeons work in ESO is terribly flawed. Luckily ZOS has realized this with any new dungeons they released, they should just revisit the old dungeons to implement this as well, to make the entire problem go away.

There is a reason why every other MMO has dungeons on rails, so everyone can get out of the dungeons what they want, and so everyone has a pleasant experience in them. Because other MMO's have realized many players will abuse anything and anyone if they get the chance. Which is exactly what the amount of fake roles and speedrunners proves, those other MMO's were 100% right to do this.

I know this goes against the "Play as you want" motto, but being forced to run after a speedrunner or being forced to wait out yet another queue because someone skipped the line as a fake role, isn't exactly "Play as you want" either. It is the opposite really, and is not "freedom of choice" as you liked to call it.

PS: I have done practically every dungeon atleast a dozen times, even have most vet dungeon achievements. I used to love running dungeons, both in ESO and other MMO's. But right now I'm not touching that part of the game at all, due to how some/many players abuse how this part works. For me as a gamer, running dungeons has always been fun and should remain fun. I'm not one of those players only running to the end for the reward, even though I want to get in and out as fast as reasonably possible.

Braffin wrote: »

Why don't you play those "best out there" but try to change a game, which many of us enjoy for years instead?

So all those (new) players having bad experiences in dungeons, does in your opinion not outweight, getting a few keys and transmutes a little bit faster for the veteran players?
All I read in this statement is: "I don't care how many players have bad experiences or how many new players have quit the game because of this issue, as long as I get my dungeon rewards all is well."

Which is a weird stance to take, because if the game loses too many players and no new players flow into/stick with the game, the game is doomed. So I really hope ZOS does not see things your way.

PS: This issue is also causing practically noone to flow into the endgame anymore, as it interrupts the natural flow from easy to hard content.

everyone knows the way dungeons work in ESO is terribly flawed

That's utter nonsense. They are terribly flawed in your opinion. That's a difference, as your personal likings aren't compulsory for us others. You can accept that or live with the opposition to your crusade.
1) Not just my opinion, every other MMO has these safeguards in place, to make sure nothing and noone is abused. What happens without those safeguards, is what we see in ESO. This has nothing to do with my likings, but everything to do with common decency, and normal MMO rulesets. No matter how you word it or how you try to defend it, players are abusing the dungeonfinder to get quick access. No matter how you word it or how you try to defend it, players are abusing others by speedrunning through dungeons.

There is a reason why every other MMO has dungeons on rails, so everyone can get out of the dungeons what they want, and so everyone has a pleasant experience in them.

Yes, there is a reason for that. Other mmos don't give players even 10% of the options regarding build diversity as eso and work with vertical progression on top of that. Additionally normal mode rewards significantly worse than veteran in every other mmo.

Nonetheless most other mmos removed the necessity for roles in lower difficulty modes and let players choose to run in a group of 4 dds.
2)You misunderstood, this isn't really about the roles themselves, this is about players abusing the queue for a fake role. And about players being able to skip the dungeon parts in a dungeonrun just to get to the final boss for the rewards. A vertical progression system does not mean dungeons are not dungeons. These players just want a single boss in a room, instead of a dungeon. To me that seems they should not be queueing for dungeons at all. To my knowledge there isn't any MMO without a forced role system, or without an on-rails dungeon run(except ESO).

I know this goes against the "Play as you want" motto, but being forced to run after a speedrunner or being forced to wait out yet another queue because someone skipped the line as a fake role, isn't exactly "Play as you want" either. It is the opposite really, and is not "freedom of choice" as you liked to call it.

You once again refuse to accept, that "random" means "random", so you aren't guaranteed to get a group with the same expectations as yourself. That's why I always emphasize the need of communication in group content. You on the other hand refuse to being bothered with talking about expectations or looking for likeminded people and try to degrade other players (real humans, ya know?) to some extended npc instead, which has to play as you want by enforcing rigid and artifical rules to the game.

Look I play dungeons slowly regularily, but I'd never presumptuously expect others to play as I want by default. You do, that's why you are a problem. Your mode isn't default mode, but one among others. The speedrunners are customers like you and do nothing wrong. They aren't worth less because of that.
3)Random means the dungeon, the roles are predetermined. Players abuse that role system to skip the queue. Expectations.... killing mobs and bosses in a dungeon is now a strange expectation? Killing things in a dungeon is the entire reason for a dungeon. You seem to just want a single boss in a room, and claim that is a dungeon you should get dungeoncomplete rewards for.
There is no communicating with fake roles or speedrunners, they do whatever they want. If there is a fake role we could kick yes, but then we'd again be stuck in a long queue due to one person skipping the line without any regards for their fellow players(this is not even mentioning the times they get a DLC dungeon and bail). If there is a speedrunner the best one can do is keep up, as we can't kick in combat and we have no choice in the matter in if they speedrun without any regard for the other players(often players even miss out on loot). So communication doesn't work in either of those cases, but it sounds nice on the forums when you are defending that behaviour. Hopefully ZOS sees through that.
It is the fake roles and speedrunners who should find their own group, as they have no real intention of doing groupplay and are only there to abuse other players. Stop trying to turn things around.

So all those (new) players having bad experiences in dungeons, does in your opinion not outweight, getting a few keys and transmutes a little bit faster for the veteran players?

You aren't a new player, but a quite seasoned one (despite I doubt it's fitting to call you veteran). Most players slow down for real newbies, I definitely do so and regularily help them getting in touch with dungeons for their first time.

But I definitely wouldn't do that for seasoned fake dds, who gimp themselves and their groups due to stubbornness, hating of the combat system and participating completely unprepared for content. They aren't damage dealers, they are fake.
4)Most real players may slow down for new players, but not fake role and speedrun players. As they do what they want without any regards for the other players in there, which is why this is such a widespread issue right now. Less and less real players run dungeon anymore.
Again the fake DD excuse, in 100's of dungeons I have only had a handful of bad DD groups. Also, fake DD's are the result of fake roles and speedrunners, as no player can learn their role in normal dungeons anymore. The place where they should learn their role and groupplay. So the entire chain from low to high difficulty in ESO is currently broken, with barely anyone flowing to endgame anymore.
Maybe if players could learn their role, like we all could, the fake DD problem you experience may go away.
And no, I'm not a new player and I love ESO, and even I have stopped running dungeons. That should be a major red flag. At the moment I put up with this, but any player not already invested into the game will probably quit after having a terrbile experience. The chances of a player like this making it through to endgame, is getting smaller and smaller every day.

All I read in this statement is: "I don't care how many players have bad experiences or how many new players have quit the game because of this issue, as long as I get my dungeon rewards all is well."

No, you are the one disinterested in the experience of others. Seemingly a lot of players enjoy to speedrun content. We see that ingame, as most groups do so. (Even new player request speedruns quite often to farm gear.) And we see that here in forums, where most participants refuse your "solutions". Yes, that only anecdotal evidence, but at least more than you have to offer: personal opinions sold as general truth without any evidence.
5)Lets say you are right, and many speedrunners enjoy speedrunning... is that worth the costs? At the expense of new players, at the expense of the current playerbase, at the expense of dungeons themselves, at the expense of the low-to-high difficulty flow of the game? These players are only looking for a single boss in a room, they are not there for a dungeon.
With my suggestions a dungeon may take 2-3 minutes longer for veteran players, but everyone would get out of it what they want and would have a pleasant experience while doing so. A speedrunner(and fake role) has a high cost of affecting three other players negatively.
I want everyone to have a good experience in dungeons, and so do other MMO's. Which is why they have rulesets and set roles and why their dungeons are on-rails. Making a dungeon a bad experience in other MMO's is almost impossible, which is why I feel ESO should do the same. I find it weird some players expect anything but a regular MMO fashion dungeonrun, and that they are ok with the current state of dungeons.

PS: This issue is also causing practically noone to flow into the endgame anymore, as it interrupts the natural flow from easy to hard content.

Are you an endgamer? No, you aren't according to your own statements:

You hate the combat system (especially LA weaving and the need for rotations), dislike PvP, communication in groups, engaging content and pretend addons as cheating.

So really, you hate every mmo-aspect of this game. Maybe it's time to move on.
6)No I am not an endgamer, but when some of the endgame community left recently with U35, it became apparent not many players flow into endgame anymore. Which is in part caused by the dungeonfinder abuse, as practically noone can learn their role/groupplay anymore. Nor flow to higher content, as the low-to-high difficulty flow in ESO is broken because of this issue.
I do not dislike the combat system, I just feel it should have more playstyles available. Gatekeeping endgame content behind only one playstyle isn't good for both the endgame community and the game itself, which U35 proved.
The PvP in MMO's like this isn't my cup of tea, as I am used to a much more high speed and more intense MMO PvP. But I have gotten too old for that now. I do feel ZOS should revitalize PvP though, but that is another discussion.
Have nothing against communication, but there is no communicating with speedrunners and fake roles. And even if there was, those entire acts have shown they do not have even the slightest regards for other players. Otherwise they would not speedrun and fake role, as neither of those acts are by accident.

You made it quite hard to respond to this with quotes, so I will respond with numbered replies(1-6 Italic).

Braffin wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Ohw, come on... everyone knows the way dungeons work in ESO is terribly flawed. Luckily ZOS has realized this with any new dungeons they released, they should just revisit the old dungeons to implement this as well, to make the entire problem go away.

There is a reason why every other MMO has dungeons on rails, so everyone can get out of the dungeons what they want, and so everyone has a pleasant experience in them. Because other MMO's have realized many players will abuse anything and anyone if they get the chance. Which is exactly what the amount of fake roles and speedrunners proves, those other MMO's were 100% right to do this.

I know this goes against the "Play as you want" motto, but being forced to run after a speedrunner or being forced to wait out yet another queue because someone skipped the line as a fake role, isn't exactly "Play as you want" either. It is the opposite really, and is not "freedom of choice" as you liked to call it.

PS: I have done practically every dungeon atleast a dozen times, even have most vet dungeon achievements. I used to love running dungeons, both in ESO and other MMO's. But right now I'm not touching that part of the game at all, due to how some/many players abuse how this part works. For me as a gamer, running dungeons has always been fun and should remain fun. I'm not one of those players only running to the end for the reward, even though I want to get in and out as fast as reasonably possible.

Braffin wrote: »

Why don't you play those "best out there" but try to change a game, which many of us enjoy for years instead?

So all those (new) players having bad experiences in dungeons, does in your opinion not outweight, getting a few keys and transmutes a little bit faster for the veteran players?
All I read in this statement is: "I don't care how many players have bad experiences or how many new players have quit the game because of this issue, as long as I get my dungeon rewards all is well."

Which is a weird stance to take, because if the game loses too many players and no new players flow into/stick with the game, the game is doomed. So I really hope ZOS does not see things your way.

PS: This issue is also causing practically noone to flow into the endgame anymore, as it interrupts the natural flow from easy to hard content.

Everyone should be treated fairly, you are advocating for a system long term customer need to have a worse experience in order to have new customers.

What kind of discriminatory treatment is this? Existing customers should not be guilt tripped into caring for the needs of new customers.

Vets are paying customers, not servants, if a new customer want servants, either ask nicely or go find paid carry.

I agree in general, but they aren't only propagandizing against existing customers, which adjust tempo and tactics to keep dungeons interesting after countless runs, but also against any newer player which isn't following their "everything has to be slow-paced and easy every single time". A lot of newer folks prefer quick runs to get their gear farmed more quickly.

These veteran fake dds are just using newer players as bad excuse. They aren't interested in the new player experience, but only in their own.And the whole server should obliege to their personal tastes.

How on earth would having to run a dungeon in a normal MMO fashion be a guilt trip to veteran players? Keep in mind, we all had to learn the game at some point. The only ones who should feel a guilttrip are the speedrunners and fake role players, as they know they are doing something that isn't right.
Running an MMO dungeon in a normal MMO fashion should be expected in an MMO, just because the speedrunner/fake role abuse exists, does not make it right to do so. That is not a "worse experience" in any way, but an expected experience. Two or three minutes more per dungeon isn't that much longer, and certainly not a worse experience than double or triple queues or missing out on loot, as is happening quite often to players right now. A dungeon isn't just a final boss in a room, why should players be allowed to act like it is? Dungeons do need specific rulesets in my opinion, so abuse is no longer possible. At worst it would take veteran players 2-3 minutes longer per dungeon(keep in mind, we are basically only talking about base game dungeons, as most DLC dungeons already have these safeguards in place). To totally make the dungeonfinder abuse go away, I don't feel that is a bad tradeoff. Especially since every other MMO does dungeons like that already. Meaning it would not go against anyone's expectations of what an MMO should provide.

MMO's are meant to be played for a long time, so having a new player immediately fill out their stickerbook seems wrong to me. As this happens over time as well, even if they do not farm for it. And a dungeon taking 2-3 minutes longer does not change farming for gear much, if at all. Your example of a new player is also leaving out all those players who have quit due to the fake role/speedrunner problem, which neither of us know how many that are. And is also leaving out how many players are now stuck at basic gameplay(overland/normals), as they cannot progress to the higher endgame content.

There are also some veteran players(like me), who are no longer queueing for dungeons, due to how the dungeonfinder is abused. As it is no longer fun, a game should be fun.

As I always play tank, I have never queue'd as a DD. (sprinting after a speedrunner isn't fun)

PS: For the record, I'm not saying there aren't many helpful and awesome players out there. As in my opinion ESO has one of the best communities of all MMO's.

Basically bunch subjective opinions you want to push as facts and norms, without even saying why it’s reasonable.

1. Guilt trip is “manipulating people to believe something us their fault when it’s not”, vets have no obligation to carry subpar teammates

2. “Doing dungeon as efficient as possible (aka speed run) is not right” is your opinion, not a universally accepted fact, a highly contested topic is not a norm

3. Everything is a bad trade off if i only have things to lose and nothing to gain. Spending extra 2-3 minutes (questionable estimate) for no gain is bad.

4. No one expects new players to be good, which is why new players should play on normal until they pull their own weight.

5. People quit stuff because they don’t like other customers all the time (gyms, golf courses, gun ranges etc), entitled few like to annoy fellow customers to cater to them. Your fun is no more valuable than their (“speed runner ”) fun.

Sarannah wrote: »

You guys always assume not speedrunning is going extremely slow or listening to the story, it is not. That is just hyperbole and exaggeration.

There is a difference between going fast, and going speedrunner fast. I too like to complete dungeons as fast as I can, but in a reasonably fast way. This I also stated in my previous post.

That is a fair point. The clear speed is of course something that depends on many factors and maybe I was not giving you the benefit of the doubt. I suppose in these types of discussions I always project the worst experiences I had with aggressively slow players. Receiving ad hominems after pulling three trash packs together leaves scars. Nevertheless, I still am firmly against the implementation of unnecessary extra rules. Even then players will find a way to rush it. And it just adds a lot more potential for something to break (e.g. mob glitched behind walls).