The Company (Not the Developers) Needs to Reevaluate What They're Doing

Muizer · September 2023

Panderbander wrote: »

The simple fact there's so many personal angles indicates the problems are systemic and not specific to one or two modes of the game.

There's a difference between taking comments or complaints as symptoms of general discontent vs interpreting them as correctly identifying concrete issues on behalf of "the players".

Panderbander · September 2023

Muizer wrote: »

Panderbander wrote: »

The simple fact there's so many personal angles indicates the problems are systemic and not specific to one or two modes of the game.

There's a difference between taking comments or complaints as symptoms of general discontent vs interpreting them as correctly identifying concrete issues on behalf of "the players".

My point, perhaps not clearly laid out, is that no one player can or should have the fix to everything people find wrong with the direction or state of things. They can, however, point to the game and say "hey, there are some big issues here that need addressing" which players will inevitably latch onto.

If I were to hazard a guess at the largest, most impactful issues (at least here on the forums), I would say that much, if not all, of the issues arise from a feeling of a one-sided conversation coming from ZOS. Players don't feel like they're being heard when they speak up and often when they do get a response it's an empty platitude ("We're working on things!") or completely misses the point with no follow up when clarification is requested.

If you're looking for a solution to problems I would start right there: improve the dialogue between the company/developers and the players. A few patches back they were doing that, responding to threads and concerns and clarifying on a consistent basis and it felt like things were on a good trajectory for a moment but since then it's just been radio silence which gives plenty of room for distrust and dissent to foment.

muscle_witch · September 2023

loveeso wrote: »

And now yet another example of a prominent member of the community being driven away by ZOS’s mismanagement of the game and its direction.

M00ny (known for the famous Hodor Reflexes add-on): "I’m not very happy with the current development of ESO. It seems like the changes ZOS does are not with players in mind".

Oh, Nefas has already made a video about it, here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFhzpaatTrE

Oh, this is BAD

Hodor's is a cornerstone of PC raiding - I genuinely cannot think of a PCNA raiding guild that doesn't require the use of Hodor's, especially for supports. And Hodor's is almost always the first addon to be updated after a patch. Having potentially weeks of not being able to use Hodor's after each patch is going to really mess up the PC raiding community.

(Note: I am NOT trying to turn this into a discussion of addons vs no addons, I am simply commenting on the impact of an addon on a part of the ESO community. If anyone does feel the need to talk about the use of addons, please keep in mind that for a lot of players, addons are accessibility features that allow the game to be playable for people with certain types of color blindness, hearing issues, severe motion sickness, etc.)

sarahthes · September 2023

muscle_witch wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

And now yet another example of a prominent member of the community being driven away by ZOS’s mismanagement of the game and its direction.

M00ny (known for the famous Hodor Reflexes add-on): "I’m not very happy with the current development of ESO. It seems like the changes ZOS does are not with players in mind".

Oh, Nefas has already made a video about it, here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFhzpaatTrE

Oh, this is BAD

Hodor's is a cornerstone of PC raiding - I genuinely cannot think of a PCNA raiding guild that doesn't require the use of Hodor's, especially for supports. And Hodor's is almost always the first addon to be updated after a patch. Having potentially weeks of not being able to use Hodor's after each patch is going to really mess up the PC raiding community.

(Note: I am NOT trying to turn this into a discussion of addons vs no addons, I am simply commenting on the impact of an addon on a part of the ESO community. If anyone does feel the need to talk about the use of addons, please keep in mind that for a lot of players, addons are accessibility features that allow the game to be playable for people with certain types of color blindness, hearing issues, severe motion sickness, etc.)

I'm sure another add-on dev will get permission to pick it up. M00ny isn't the original creator of the add-on, after all, so it's changed hands before.

muscle_witch · September 2023

sarahthes wrote: »

muscle_witch wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

And now yet another example of a prominent member of the community being driven away by ZOS’s mismanagement of the game and its direction.

M00ny (known for the famous Hodor Reflexes add-on): "I’m not very happy with the current development of ESO. It seems like the changes ZOS does are not with players in mind".

Oh, Nefas has already made a video about it, here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFhzpaatTrE

Oh, this is BAD

Hodor's is a cornerstone of PC raiding - I genuinely cannot think of a PCNA raiding guild that doesn't require the use of Hodor's, especially for supports. And Hodor's is almost always the first addon to be updated after a patch. Having potentially weeks of not being able to use Hodor's after each patch is going to really mess up the PC raiding community.

(Note: I am NOT trying to turn this into a discussion of addons vs no addons, I am simply commenting on the impact of an addon on a part of the ESO community. If anyone does feel the need to talk about the use of addons, please keep in mind that for a lot of players, addons are accessibility features that allow the game to be playable for people with certain types of color blindness, hearing issues, severe motion sickness, etc.)

I'm sure another add-on dev will get permission to pick it up. M00ny isn't the original creator of the add-on, after all, so it's changed hands before.

In the announcement shown in the video, he said that he would keep updating it, but not necessarily promptly, and that he wasn't planning on making it public, which I assume means that he won't be handing it over to someone else. So it's not going away right yet, but it does mean that every patch/update runs the risk of one of the most important raiding addons not functioning properly for several weeks afterward - imagine what that's going to do to prog groups

sarahthes · September 2023

muscle_witch wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

muscle_witch wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

And now yet another example of a prominent member of the community being driven away by ZOS’s mismanagement of the game and its direction.

M00ny (known for the famous Hodor Reflexes add-on): "I’m not very happy with the current development of ESO. It seems like the changes ZOS does are not with players in mind".

Oh, Nefas has already made a video about it, here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFhzpaatTrE

Oh, this is BAD

Hodor's is a cornerstone of PC raiding - I genuinely cannot think of a PCNA raiding guild that doesn't require the use of Hodor's, especially for supports. And Hodor's is almost always the first addon to be updated after a patch. Having potentially weeks of not being able to use Hodor's after each patch is going to really mess up the PC raiding community.

(Note: I am NOT trying to turn this into a discussion of addons vs no addons, I am simply commenting on the impact of an addon on a part of the ESO community. If anyone does feel the need to talk about the use of addons, please keep in mind that for a lot of players, addons are accessibility features that allow the game to be playable for people with certain types of color blindness, hearing issues, severe motion sickness, etc.)

I'm sure another add-on dev will get permission to pick it up. M00ny isn't the original creator of the add-on, after all, so it's changed hands before.

sarahthes wrote: »

muscle_witch wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

And now yet another example of a prominent member of the community being driven away by ZOS’s mismanagement of the game and its direction.

M00ny (known for the famous Hodor Reflexes add-on): "I’m not very happy with the current development of ESO. It seems like the changes ZOS does are not with players in mind".

Oh, Nefas has already made a video about it, here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFhzpaatTrE

Oh, this is BAD

Hodor's is a cornerstone of PC raiding - I genuinely cannot think of a PCNA raiding guild that doesn't require the use of Hodor's, especially for supports. And Hodor's is almost always the first addon to be updated after a patch. Having potentially weeks of not being able to use Hodor's after each patch is going to really mess up the PC raiding community.

(Note: I am NOT trying to turn this into a discussion of addons vs no addons, I am simply commenting on the impact of an addon on a part of the ESO community. If anyone does feel the need to talk about the use of addons, please keep in mind that for a lot of players, addons are accessibility features that allow the game to be playable for people with certain types of color blindness, hearing issues, severe motion sickness, etc.)

I'm sure another add-on dev will get permission to pick it up. M00ny isn't the original creator of the add-on, after all, so it's changed hands before.

In the announcement shown in the video, he said that he would keep updating it, but not necessarily promptly, and that he wasn't planning on making it public, which I assume means that he won't be handing it over to someone else. So it's not going away right yet, but it does mean that every patch/update runs the risk of one of the most important raiding addons not functioning properly for several weeks afterward - imagine what that's going to do to prog groups

If he stops updating it completely or it breaks functionality, another mod dev will step up with or without permission. As has happened for any other necessary, but deprecated/abandoned, mods.

It's not great a creator is walking away. It is also unlikely to impact raiders very much in the long term.

AzuraFan · September 2023

peacenote wrote: »

And one of the reasons a new class was not enough to bring people in, or bring people back, was that before releasing the new class, they released AwA. Which ruined a lot of what was fun about having multiple characters for many people because of a bad implementation. Many, many people gave feedback as to how it could be improved. It was all ignored. When the new class was announced, the forum was flooded with unimpressed people who said a new class is of no interest; they wanted skill lines they could use on their current character. Never have I seen such a lack of enthusiasm for a new class in any MMO I have played. But this was because they chased away all of the people who enjoyed starting over!! They catered to the feedback of people who said achievements were a grind (while not actually removing the grindiest achievements like per character motifs, gee I wonder why that was), but instead of understanding what was underneath that feedback and addressing it thoughtfully, and separating achievements from character progress tracking, we got a sledgehammer approach to simplifying achievements which broke map progress, something that is still broken to this day.

Agree 100%. I don't like running dungeons ad nauseum, but I'll happily run story content many, many times. They nixed that with AwA (there's no point when the zone maps are already complete and story achievements are account wide). I tried the arcanist for a few levels, but I knew I wasn't going to stick with it and quickly gave up. I've been playing my main 99.9% of the time since AwA.

It seems that every time ZOS puts out a major update, they drive away a segment of the population, or at least significantly reduce the fun/replayability for a specific group of players. With AwA, it was people who enjoy creating alts to run through story content. Build changes have driven away people whose builds were ruined. There have been changes driving away end gamers. Soon there won't be anybody left.

ZOS has never figured out who its target audience is. It doesn't seem to be PvPers (no new updates in ages), end gamers (many are dissatisfied and leaving), those who like to take multiple alts through the story (AwA), housing (too expensive now), etc. Who exactly are they targeting? They need to figure that out (though frankly, I think it might be too late at this point to increase the population in any meaningful way).

Trying to appeal to everyone ends up appealing to no one. They should have figured out who they were creating this game for and stuck to it.

(and yeah, the constant nudging toward the crown store is becoming more obvious and reeks of desperation at this point.)

loveeso · September 2023

AzuraFan wrote: »

peacenote wrote: »

And one of the reasons a new class was not enough to bring people in, or bring people back, was that before releasing the new class, they released AwA. Which ruined a lot of what was fun about having multiple characters for many people because of a bad implementation. Many, many people gave feedback as to how it could be improved. It was all ignored. When the new class was announced, the forum was flooded with unimpressed people who said a new class is of no interest; they wanted skill lines they could use on their current character. Never have I seen such a lack of enthusiasm for a new class in any MMO I have played. But this was because they chased away all of the people who enjoyed starting over!! They catered to the feedback of people who said achievements were a grind (while not actually removing the grindiest achievements like per character motifs, gee I wonder why that was), but instead of understanding what was underneath that feedback and addressing it thoughtfully, and separating achievements from character progress tracking, we got a sledgehammer approach to simplifying achievements which broke map progress, something that is still broken to this day.

Agree 100%. I don't like running dungeons ad nauseum, but I'll happily run story content many, many times. They nixed that with AwA (there's no point when the zone maps are already complete and story achievements are account wide). I tried the arcanist for a few levels, but I knew I wasn't going to stick with it and quickly gave up. I've been playing my main 99.9% of the time since AwA.

It seems that every time ZOS puts out a major update, they drive away a segment of the population, or at least significantly reduce the fun/replayability for a specific group of players. With AwA, it was people who enjoy creating alts to run through story content. Build changes have driven away people whose builds were ruined. There have been changes driving away end gamers. Soon there won't be anybody left.

ZOS has never figured out who its target audience is. It doesn't seem to be PvPers (no new updates in ages), end gamers (many are dissatisfied and leaving), those who like to take multiple alts through the story (AwA), housing (too expensive now), etc. Who exactly are they targeting? They need to figure that out (though frankly, I think it might be too late at this point to increase the population in any meaningful way).

Trying to appeal to everyone ends up appealing to no one. They should have figured out who they were creating this game for and stuck to it.

(and yeah, the constant nudging toward the crown store is becoming more obvious and reeks of desperation at this point.)

Almost seems like they are targeting just those addicted to spending their own money on the crown crate bundles, doesn’t it

Solutions to all the problems mentioned above aren’t mutually exclusive. Many other games cater to all these different segments of players with great success. Over the years, ZOS could have made housing better and more affordable (it’s ridiculously expensive), could have increased the max capacity of houses, could have made many more houses available without crowns, could have fixed many more bugs for PvE, PvP, and overland adventurers, could have innovated, could have worked hard on new features and improving the game, and so on. Instead, they chose to introduce nonsensical changes to keep players busy by forcing them to regrind gear every few months, buy race change tokens, switch between different classes, relearn rotations… that’s a perfect solution for cutting cost, extremely cheap to implement (you literally just switch around a few numbers and a few lines of text)… all the while they have been churning out new and old (but coloured differently) items on the crown store. This seems to be the root of the problem.

AzuraFan · September 2023

loveeso wrote: »

Solutions to all the problems mentioned above aren’t mutually exclusive. Many other games cater to all these different segments of players with great success.

That's true too. To make that happen, the ones piloting the ship (sorry, been playing Starfield) have to understand those different segments. ZOS doesn't seem to understand what anybody wants, no matter their playstyle or preferred game activities. That's not understanding their audience, or audiences in the case of different segments. Or maybe they do understand, but... I also agree that getting people to spend crowns seems to be influencing a lot of their decisions lately, to the detriment of the game.

Nezyr_Jezz · September 2023

AzuraFan wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

Solutions to all the problems mentioned above aren’t mutually exclusive. Many other games cater to all these different segments of players with great success.

That's true too. To make that happen, the ones piloting the ship (sorry, been playing Starfield) have to understand those different segments. ZOS doesn't seem to understand what anybody wants, no matter their playstyle or preferred game activities. That's not understanding their audience, or audiences in the case of different segments. Or maybe they do understand, but... I also agree that getting people to spend crowns seems to be influencing a lot of their decisions lately, to the detriment of the game.

All true. There are rather focusing on a "card game" or other useless option.

loveeso · September 2023

AzuraFan wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

Solutions to all the problems mentioned above aren’t mutually exclusive. Many other games cater to all these different segments of players with great success.

That's true too. To make that happen, the ones piloting the ship (sorry, been playing Starfield) have to understand those different segments. ZOS doesn't seem to understand what anybody wants, no matter their playstyle or preferred game activities. That's not understanding their audience, or audiences in the case of different segments. Or maybe they do understand, but... I also agree that getting people to spend crowns seems to be influencing a lot of their decisions lately, to the detriment of the game.

True

muscle_witch · September 2023

sarahthes wrote: »

muscle_witch wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

muscle_witch wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

And now yet another example of a prominent member of the community being driven away by ZOS’s mismanagement of the game and its direction.

M00ny (known for the famous Hodor Reflexes add-on): "I’m not very happy with the current development of ESO. It seems like the changes ZOS does are not with players in mind".

Oh, Nefas has already made a video about it, here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFhzpaatTrE

Oh, this is BAD

Hodor's is a cornerstone of PC raiding - I genuinely cannot think of a PCNA raiding guild that doesn't require the use of Hodor's, especially for supports. And Hodor's is almost always the first addon to be updated after a patch. Having potentially weeks of not being able to use Hodor's after each patch is going to really mess up the PC raiding community.

(Note: I am NOT trying to turn this into a discussion of addons vs no addons, I am simply commenting on the impact of an addon on a part of the ESO community. If anyone does feel the need to talk about the use of addons, please keep in mind that for a lot of players, addons are accessibility features that allow the game to be playable for people with certain types of color blindness, hearing issues, severe motion sickness, etc.)

I'm sure another add-on dev will get permission to pick it up. M00ny isn't the original creator of the add-on, after all, so it's changed hands before.

sarahthes wrote: »

muscle_witch wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

And now yet another example of a prominent member of the community being driven away by ZOS’s mismanagement of the game and its direction.

M00ny (known for the famous Hodor Reflexes add-on): "I’m not very happy with the current development of ESO. It seems like the changes ZOS does are not with players in mind".

Oh, Nefas has already made a video about it, here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFhzpaatTrE

Oh, this is BAD

Hodor's is a cornerstone of PC raiding - I genuinely cannot think of a PCNA raiding guild that doesn't require the use of Hodor's, especially for supports. And Hodor's is almost always the first addon to be updated after a patch. Having potentially weeks of not being able to use Hodor's after each patch is going to really mess up the PC raiding community.

(Note: I am NOT trying to turn this into a discussion of addons vs no addons, I am simply commenting on the impact of an addon on a part of the ESO community. If anyone does feel the need to talk about the use of addons, please keep in mind that for a lot of players, addons are accessibility features that allow the game to be playable for people with certain types of color blindness, hearing issues, severe motion sickness, etc.)

I'm sure another add-on dev will get permission to pick it up. M00ny isn't the original creator of the add-on, after all, so it's changed hands before.

In the announcement shown in the video, he said that he would keep updating it, but not necessarily promptly, and that he wasn't planning on making it public, which I assume means that he won't be handing it over to someone else. So it's not going away right yet, but it does mean that every patch/update runs the risk of one of the most important raiding addons not functioning properly for several weeks afterward - imagine what that's going to do to prog groups

If he stops updating it completely or it breaks functionality, another mod dev will step up with or without permission. As has happened for any other necessary, but deprecated/abandoned, mods.

It's not great a creator is walking away. It is also unlikely to impact raiders very much in the long term.

I have to disagree - this is the kind of thing that slowly chips away at the raiding community, which depends heavily on continuity of community knowledge. When no one was running vHoF because of the purge bug going for months on end, enough people left because of u35 and block bug in the interim that when the purge bug got fixed, there weren't a lot of people who remembered how. There were even fewer people who remembered how without using burn strats, which you can't always do in, say, a learning run where the dps isn't necessarily going to be high enough to skip all the mechs on the twins.

Alienating creators associated with the game is a problem, not just because we lose out on the benefit of their work, but because ESO is highly dependent on community knowledge. When the people who write the guides, develop the addons, crunch the numbers for builds, and puzzle out strats decide that the game is no longer worth playing, everyone who engages with the game suffers because all the people who don't have the time or inclination to be that invested benefit from the knowledge and labor that those highly invested people put into the game community.

Ragnarok0130 · September 2023

The developers not just the company have a large share in the blame for the state of ESO today OP. Specifically the combat team who ramrodded through the U35 changes despite copious feedback, PTS testing, and data (both statistical and experiential) provided by the community in the PTS forums showing that it would have a detrimental effect on not just the end game but the player base in general. The same team who spoke ad nauseam about having a "combat vision" yet was wholly unable to articulate exactly what that vision is for the past year and who unceremoniously bailed on holding the U35 Q&A that they came up with and told us that they'd hold and then ran and hid from when it was apparent the community was looking for actual answers and a path forward to correct the issues they caused. U35 and the combat team's refusal to listen to reason and data started this entire downhill slide to today where content creators are abandoning the game, trial rosters are a constant roster prog, Trial guilds are dying, and players finding other games to play. Until U35 and its detrimental follow on effects are addressed and the devs start listening to their paying customers the situation will not change.

The only part of the game that ZoS seems to have any passion or energy for is the Crown Store - consequently it's the only part of the game where they will listen to players..but only the partt where we tell them what we'd like to purchase but not about how the game has little to no earnable items in game on par with the crown store.

psychotrip · September 2023

Panderbander wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

So, it's kind of easy to write "ZOS need to reevaluate what they're doing". Lots of people will agree as long as they can project their own personal angle on what needs changing. I'm not convinced there's much consensus among players about what they expect from ZoS. Better performance, yes. A dislike of the crown store perhaps. Apart from that .....

The simple fact there's so many personal angles indicates the problems are systemic and not specific to one or two modes of the game. I don't particularly enjoy PvE so what I suggest isn't going to necessarily be PvE oriented, but that doesn't mean the problems don't exist and aren't part of the overall problem.

I would prefer a game where everyone is moderately happy to a game where everyone is seemingly miserable, even if not every facet applies to me, and I'm sure many of the folks here share that sentiment.

Comments like these are why I like this community compared to other mmos. You guys are smart, and you're able to cut through silly player-blaming talking points.

Its not your job to know how to fix this game, its not your job to make excuses for a massive corporation, and its not your job to give them free marketing they havent earned by pretending everything is fine on the forums.

I wish WoW players were more like you guys. Many MMO players are simultaneously toxic AND make excuses for the company, while also hating the company. Its paradoxical and weird.

Wuduwasa13 · September 2023

Sarannah wrote: »

Blaming the streamers and "elite" players for bad patches and holding the game back is so unfair. They're not the developers who make the decisions of adding stuff in the game... they're players just like you and I. As far as animation canceling and LA weaving... this is caused by a broken combat system that ZOS still hasn't fixed yet.

There is nothing holding back anyone from playing end gaming content... however, you do need to work on your rotation and improving yourself and your gear... If you have bad DPS... It's all on you... not the streamer's fault, not the elite player's fault.. its your fault for not understanding your class. Instead of hiring people to do XP/power level runs in skyreach/ ‎Blackrose Prison arena... level up your character in a normal sense.

You contradict yourself. You are saying not to blame the elite players and streamers, and immediately state everyone needs to work on their rotation for the highest DPS.

The game needs more playstyles, like the original oakensoul and HA builds, but every time ZOS releases a new playstyle.... guess who wants it nerfed for reasons. So yes, it is the elite and streamers holding this game back, especially if you consider most of the playerbase does not perform the barswapping LA weaving playstyle. Whatever their reasons for not wanting to do the barswapping LA weaving playstyle, they do not do it. (personally I find it buttonsmashing and looks stupid)[/quote]

You are aware there is a mythic that exists and literally compensates for those incapable or unwilling to learn the very basic task of LA weaving? Literally they brought it out to accommodate those folks who endlessly complain about not reaching endgame but who seemingly never want to change or play the game in any other way than they currently are (and which is holding them back).

Becoming good at the game requires effort, patience and discipline. If you lack the work ethic to rise to the challenge then don’t expect to earn the reward. Endgame is an achievement, not a participation trophy.

PS: I’d say from my experience the majority of players in trials do know how to LA weave and are quite capable of doing it successfully as part of their rotation. I can’t speak to how it looks as I’m focusing my attention on the mechs and my own role and not on what others are doing as part of their rotation & certainly don’t give two hoots about how it looks…

Lylith · September 2023

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

It's not other the players fault there's only a few ways to gain enough DPS to comfortly get through endgame content.

I know players that used to do weekly training runs with people. I have massive respect for them. Most people eventually get tired of spending 3-4 hours of their free time on players that refuse to want to get better gear or practice their rotation.

Let's be honest; if you want to finish endgame content, but you don't want to farm endgame gear or practice endgame rotations, then you just want to get carried.

Sorry but disagree.

The issue is the dependence on rotations for max damage in ‘end game’ stuff.

Not everyone finds this easy to manage, for many different reasons, and not just because they need to practice. (Which is why oakensoul is/was fantastic)

It’s this kind of attitude that puts many people off even trying to get into ‘end game’ - which is a shame.

I have limited time to play and really hate practicing rotations. It takes all the fun & spontaneity out of the game. Dull mechanical button mashing. And not always helpful if needing to respond to situational mechs, to be frank.

(And I lead a prog group that don’t ask for damage stats and are gradually making our merry way through vet trials. Only 3 to go.)

and god forbid any player should be limited by physical incapacities or age; we should ALL have nanosecond responses and be capable of button smashing like we're 14 year olds on meth. -.-

let's be clear, no amount of practice or dedication is going to negate the effects of arthritis or any other joint problems, missing digits, or whatnot; in fact, it serves to exacerbate them.

jerj6925 · September 2023

ZOS just needs to go back to their mission statement when this game was first released...

Read
Remember
Find your self back on track.

Warhawke_80 · September 2023

I wish there wasn't so much hostility....it's a game.

I still have this gut feeling that the combat system is being reworked behind the scenes...I think I'll take a forum vacation when that is announced

boi_anachronism_ · September 2023

Lylith wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

It's not other the players fault there's only a few ways to gain enough DPS to comfortly get through endgame content.

I know players that used to do weekly training runs with people. I have massive respect for them. Most people eventually get tired of spending 3-4 hours of their free time on players that refuse to want to get better gear or practice their rotation.

Let's be honest; if you want to finish endgame content, but you don't want to farm endgame gear or practice endgame rotations, then you just want to get carried.

Sorry but disagree.

The issue is the dependence on rotations for max damage in ‘end game’ stuff.

Not everyone finds this easy to manage, for many different reasons, and not just because they need to practice. (Which is why oakensoul is/was fantastic)

It’s this kind of attitude that puts many people off even trying to get into ‘end game’ - which is a shame.

I have limited time to play and really hate practicing rotations. It takes all the fun & spontaneity out of the game. Dull mechanical button mashing. And not always helpful if needing to respond to situational mechs, to be frank.

(And I lead a prog group that don’t ask for damage stats and are gradually making our merry way through vet trials. Only 3 to go.)

and god forbid any player should be limited by physical incapacities or age; we should ALL have nanosecond responses and be capable of button smashing like we're 14 year olds on meth. -.-

let's be clear, no amount of practice or dedication is going to negate the effects of arthritis or any other joint problems, missing digits, or whatnot; in fact, it serves to exacerbate them.

It most definitely isnt button mashing at all. You get more button mashing playing soul caliber or street fighter for combos. I play on a controller. There is a cooldown. If you are button mashing you are doing it way wrong and thats why your having problems. I have joint issues from years of working with high vibration tools. If you are doing a controlled rotation (outside of sever arthritis or something of that nature where you cant grip properly) it shouldnt be an issue. Single bar and Ha builds exist for those folk. Its like a metronome not a mash. In fact many players use one when learning to do it effectively. There is only one class i wouldnt recommend which is nb which requires a much higher rate of aps.

Trundik · September 2023

Muizer wrote: »

So, it's kind of easy to write "ZOS need to reevaluate what they're doing". Lots of people will agree as long as they can project their own personal angle on what needs changing. I'm not convinced there's much consensus among players about what they expect from ZoS. Better performance, yes. A dislike of the crown store perhaps. Apart from that .....

Apart from that they should:

a) communicate with players
b) fix known bugs faster than in a year or two
c) Hire someone who can see the line between actions and consequences. Decision to shut down gifting not only kills whole point of gameplay for many players but also works opposite way. Now the only way to obtain crown store items is to buy money directly for those ppl. Its not cure, but poison, obviously. I would say that current management team don't meet expectations at all.

blktauna · September 2023

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

I don't know what the big deal is about bar swapping, it's not rocket science.

And to me end game is PvP and we haven't had a PvP update in 5 years.

The big deal is that it only works about 70% of the time

especially when the ball groups show up

Zerodeeps · September 2023

I don’t think ZOS can fix the gate keeping going on in endgame but I’m sure they have the statistics to prove it. It’s the same people running the same trials over and over. They don’t need anything for their sticker book. They have the titles already. Getting a chance is a job application and, even when a spot opens up, you’d rather take the guy with the clear already. While telling people to git gud, nobody thought to get good at being inclusive. That’s why it is the way it is. Not because good people or some streamer quit.

Ravensilver · September 2023

Lylith wrote: »

and god forbid any player should be limited by physical incapacities or age; we should ALL have nanosecond responses and be capable of button smashing like we're 14 year olds on meth. -.-

let's be clear, no amount of practice or dedication is going to negate the effects of arthritis or any other joint problems, missing digits, or whatnot; in fact, it serves to exacerbate them.

THIS!

Over the years the arthritis in my hands has gotten so bad, that the fingers in my right hand start to lock up when I try to do an intensive lengthy boss fight. So I miss rotations, or I can't move fast enough to avoid damage areas, or can't hit the next ability fast enough to make a difference.
I've been trying to find a way around this, but so far there has been no technical solution that is really viable.

So fast paced endgame is absolutely beyond me now. This, after having played MMORPGs for the last 30 years or so, having raided in WoW and EQ2, done mythics and vet and (except for PvP, which I loathe) done everything in between.

No matter how much I refine my build (which has now been ruined, since I had to unslot the Grim Focus ability from my NB, since the permaglow is giving me an instant headache when I start playing), or get better gear, the physical disability will not be removed or mitigated through more practice or longer playing time.

And I'm sure I'm not the only one faced with this, as the player base starts getting older - those of us who started with Neverwinter Nights are now slowly heading towards retirement. But the game industry still acts as if all players are between 16-25, have 24/7 time to play and the ability of a Lubomyr Melnyk (fastest piano player in the world) on the keyboard/mouse.

CameraBeardThePirate · September 2023

Wuduwasa13 wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Blaming the streamers and "elite" players for bad patches and holding the game back is so unfair. They're not the developers who make the decisions of adding stuff in the game... they're players just like you and I. As far as animation canceling and LA weaving... this is caused by a broken combat system that ZOS still hasn't fixed yet.

There is nothing holding back anyone from playing end gaming content... however, you do need to work on your rotation and improving yourself and your gear... If you have bad DPS... It's all on you... not the streamer's fault, not the elite player's fault.. its your fault for not understanding your class. Instead of hiring people to do XP/power level runs in skyreach/ ‎Blackrose Prison arena... level up your character in a normal sense.

You contradict yourself. You are saying not to blame the elite players and streamers, and immediately state everyone needs to work on their rotation for the highest DPS.

The game needs more playstyles, like the original oakensoul and HA builds, but every time ZOS releases a new playstyle.... guess who wants it nerfed for reasons. So yes, it is the elite and streamers holding this game back, especially if you consider most of the playerbase does not perform the barswapping LA weaving playstyle. Whatever their reasons for not wanting to do the barswapping LA weaving playstyle, they do not do it. (personally I find it buttonsmashing and looks stupid)

How on earth is saying that you should need to practice to do hard content contradicting the fact that you shouldn't blame streamers for bad updates? Like what?

Trundik · September 2023

Sigh. Now I think developers must revaluate what they doing too.

Here is screenshot I just made. Some random chat trader says there wts chromium plating 40k. Week a go it was 60k. But then some devloper said they will change jewellery and poof, price going down quick. Look at it closer and you will see few conclusions:
1. Nothing done yet, but some players already were harmed by developer. I mean those, who make money on platings and those who have a lot of them right now. I'm lucky to have only one, but last month I sold about 20+ (thanks god I did that).

2. Players don't exepect anything good from developers actions. I mean people drop platings like its rain of them, because they expect huge price dump. People are smart enough to prdict what will happen and they know that developers probably won't bother with protecting their finance interest, when bots will drop plating prices to 0 very soon with that new system. That will happen because price depends from supply and demand. Bots are pushing supply while demand stay same and thats why resources constantly become cheaper. Now developers willl help them from other side pushing demand lower, because more easy access. Players amount will be same so this will have a result of double push pricing from both sides. It means removing another brick from game economy. There honestly not a lot of them left.

3. Devlopers are pouring water from empty to empty. Game of words was lost during translation, but it should mean endless and pointless process. Who exactly was asking for that change? I know nobody, literally not even single person who complained about current jewellery. Difference between gold and purple jewellery pieces was low, it was good feature and worked good. It allowed to gain money on craft, while rest of raws don't. And now comes main question here: Maybe there is some more important things to do than to change something that worked just fine? I look on it from producution resource perspective. To change jwellery you should take some person and give to him or her that job. Maybe more than on person tho. In same time there is 10000000000000 unfixed bugs, many of them isn't hard to fix, they just requires attention, but no, developers prefer to pour water. One person could fix 3d models, for example I wait for fix of one since april - still nothing. Or that person could be GM and ban those condemned bots in real time, helping players a lot with economy, but NO, we need rebuild jewellery. For what, folk? I think you just wash out the budget, guys.

Kesstryl · September 2023

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Lylith wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

It's not other the players fault there's only a few ways to gain enough DPS to comfortly get through endgame content.

I know players that used to do weekly training runs with people. I have massive respect for them. Most people eventually get tired of spending 3-4 hours of their free time on players that refuse to want to get better gear or practice their rotation.

Let's be honest; if you want to finish endgame content, but you don't want to farm endgame gear or practice endgame rotations, then you just want to get carried.

Sorry but disagree.

The issue is the dependence on rotations for max damage in ‘end game’ stuff.

Not everyone finds this easy to manage, for many different reasons, and not just because they need to practice. (Which is why oakensoul is/was fantastic)

It’s this kind of attitude that puts many people off even trying to get into ‘end game’ - which is a shame.

I have limited time to play and really hate practicing rotations. It takes all the fun & spontaneity out of the game. Dull mechanical button mashing. And not always helpful if needing to respond to situational mechs, to be frank.

(And I lead a prog group that don’t ask for damage stats and are gradually making our merry way through vet trials. Only 3 to go.)

and god forbid any player should be limited by physical incapacities or age; we should ALL have nanosecond responses and be capable of button smashing like we're 14 year olds on meth. -.-

let's be clear, no amount of practice or dedication is going to negate the effects of arthritis or any other joint problems, missing digits, or whatnot; in fact, it serves to exacerbate them.

It most definitely isnt button mashing at all. You get more button mashing playing soul caliber or street fighter for combos. I play on a controller. There is a cooldown. If you are button mashing you are doing it way wrong and thats why your having problems. I have joint issues from years of working with high vibration tools. If you are doing a controlled rotation (outside of sever arthritis or something of that nature where you cant grip properly) it shouldnt be an issue. Single bar and Ha builds exist for those folk. Its like a metronome not a mash. In fact many players use one when learning to do it effectively. There is only one class i wouldnt recommend which is nb which requires a much higher rate of aps.

Even metronome rate repetitive button pressing is too much for my carpal tunnel pain. I'm glad you are able to do rotations after having some damage to your hands, but not everyone's pain is the same as yours.

GooGa592 · September 2023

original post edited to say something opposite of what was originally posted

Jimbru · September 2023

GooGa592 wrote: »

Less emphasis on crown store and more emphasis on the game would be the solution to making ESO great again.

Also, less insistence on sticking with the outdated "Skyrim on console" style UI, and more incorporating features that people expect from a modern PC based MMO.

Wuduwasa13 · September 2023

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Wuduwasa13 wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Blaming the streamers and "elite" players for bad patches and holding the game back is so unfair. They're not the developers who make the decisions of adding stuff in the game... they're players just like you and I. As far as animation canceling and LA weaving... this is caused by a broken combat system that ZOS still hasn't fixed yet.

There is nothing holding back anyone from playing end gaming content... however, you do need to work on your rotation and improving yourself and your gear... If you have bad DPS... It's all on you... not the streamer's fault, not the elite player's fault.. its your fault for not understanding your class. Instead of hiring people to do XP/power level runs in skyreach/ ‎Blackrose Prison arena... level up your character in a normal sense.

You contradict yourself. You are saying not to blame the elite players and streamers, and immediately state everyone needs to work on their rotation for the highest DPS.

The game needs more playstyles, like the original oakensoul and HA builds, but every time ZOS releases a new playstyle.... guess who wants it nerfed for reasons. So yes, it is the elite and streamers holding this game back, especially if you consider most of the playerbase does not perform the barswapping LA weaving playstyle. Whatever their reasons for not wanting to do the barswapping LA weaving playstyle, they do not do it. (personally I find it buttonsmashing and looks stupid)

How on earth is saying that you should need to practice to do hard content contradicting the fact that you shouldn't blame streamers for bad updates? Like what?

That wasn’t my comment, that was a quote but I fudged up the copying of it (oops). My comment was below it & addressed the matter of LA weaving.