Proposal to reverse Hybridization.

FoJul · September 2023

Hybridization made the game unbalanced too fast. It killed unique builds. It allow classes to stack into HP and still have damage. I think reversing hybridization would fix balance in PvP and PvE.

boi_anachronism_ · September 2023

Hp doesnt scale damage though so how does that work. Im confused.

FoJul · September 2023

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Hp doesnt scale damage though so how does that work. Im confused.

with damage multipliers and passives that you get for free..People don't have to build in stats anymore. From Hybridization, you can slot Dual wield..a few proc sets and 40k Hp and be unstoppable in PvP.

Before hybridization, builds were more unique. Playstyles were unique. Most importantly, the game was better balanced/easier to balance.

boi_anachronism_ · September 2023

FoJul wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Hp doesnt scale damage though so how does that work. Im confused.

with damage multipliers and passives that you get for free..People don't have to build in stats anymore. From Hybridization, you can slot Dual wield..a few proc sets and 40k Hp and be unstoppable in PvP.

Before hybridization, builds were more unique. Playstyles were unique. Most importantly, the game was better balanced/easier to balance.

I still dont understand how you get 40k hp and have that kind of damage. You need to slot atributes into one or the other to some degree of damage regardless of procs.most ppl build about 32-35k into hp and the rest into their prefered stat. Those that have 40+ are built to be mobile tanks, ie dk and warden builds. You could still slot dw and get the passives before hybridization as well as proc sets. Build uniqueness i get but i dont get the connection with high hp being related to hybridization. Damage still scales with your highest offensive stat.

LukosCreyden · September 2023

Nah, I like my hybrid sorc

Turtle_Bot · September 2023

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Hp doesnt scale damage though so how does that work. Im confused.

with damage multipliers and passives that you get for free..People don't have to build in stats anymore. From Hybridization, you can slot Dual wield..a few proc sets and 40k Hp and be unstoppable in PvP.

Before hybridization, builds were more unique. Playstyles were unique. Most importantly, the game was better balanced/easier to balance.

I still dont understand how you get 40k hp and have that kind of damage. You need to slot atributes into one or the other to some degree of damage regardless of procs.most ppl build about 32-35k into hp and the rest into their prefered stat. Those that have 40+ are built to be mobile tanks, ie dk and warden builds. You could still slot dw and get the passives before hybridization as well as proc sets. Build uniqueness i get but i dont get the connection with high hp being related to hybridization. Damage still scales with your highest offensive stat.

Its less to do with hybridization (although this did expose the flaws with the real cause of this issue), but more to do with the rework to the damage formula years ago which meant that building damage gave much better damage and healing making it so you don't need to build into stats.

Why hybridization is the final nail in the coffin, so to speak, is because you could now use magicka abilities on a stamina character without needing to build both weapon and spell damage, meaning you could run the much higher weapon damage builds for higher damage, but still have very strong healing from mag based skills.
The other effect was that due to this mix of skills, players essentially doubled their max stats available even without building into them since they could easily run stamina offensive skills and magicka defense/healing skills or vice versa.
This meant that while they only had 20k max mag/stam, they technically had the equivalent of 40k of either of those resources. It also had the effect where recoveries were essentially doubled as well since you could now have 1700 mag recovery and 1700 stam recovery but because your skills were equally effective off mag or stam and you used both resource pools equally, you essentially had what is equivalent to 3400 of either recovery to work with.

This made it so that you didn't need to build into max stats since the pay off for building into those was worse than just dumping everything into health, damage and sustain making it so that you had the health and resistances of a tank with the damage of 90% of a DD without any sacrifice and plenty of sustain and healing to boot.

TL//DR: hybridization effectively combined both stamina and magicka resources into a single resource that had the effect to essentially double the available max resource and recovery to use abilities despite not building into either max stat allowing for people to have the same (or more) damage but with free attribute points they could dump into health to give them the health of tanks.

boi_anachronism_ · September 2023

Right, i get the whole double pool part and recovery. Thats all fine and good but by specing into health you still cut your damage so im confused as to how this allows for massive health increases with the same damage output. Like ok you can use mag to heal as a stam toon, fine. That helps your sustain, that part i fully understand but it doesnt change the fact that if you spec 25 into health for example and 15 into stam and 24 into mag your damage is for everything is still scaling off the 24 mag. If you slot 30 into health and 34 into mag everything is still scaling off that 34 mag. Am i missing something here. Hybridization affected sustain and it effected the skills you could put on your bar but the actual damage of said skills didnt change.

Malprave · September 2023

I have to say I’m enjoying the hybridization in pve. I like being able to “dip” into the other pool with skills that you couldn’t really do that with before.

In pvp there are definitely problems with high health characters being able to do massive damage. I’m not so sure that is due to hybridization so much as it is to procs and the heavy attack meta. With procs and heavy attacks you don’t need to build any sustain at all. Going all in on max stats and using procs for damage let’s characters be quite tanky indeed.

ItsNotLiving · September 2023

I hate hybridization all it did for me was just delete 6 classes from the game. Bye-bye whichever version is worse. “Just take the best morphs” really ruined the game for me.

StarOfElyon · September 2023

FoJul wrote: »

Hybridization made the game unbalanced too fast. It killed unique builds. It allow classes to stack into HP and still have damage. I think reversing hybridization would fix balance in PvP and PvE.

I don't think it would fix imbalance. As a hybrid main though, I miss when my characters felt unique. I think all skills scaling with the highest stat was a step too far to making hybrids viable. Reverse that so that stamina skills scale with weapon damage and Magicka skills scale with spell damage.

After that, all I need is potions that give both major brutality and major sorcery. That will put hybrids in the spot where they belong.

Amottica · September 2023

I do not see a proposal on how to go about reversing hybridization other than just a suggestion to do something named to do it. Since hybridization came about in more than one update there is not a simple reversal.

And BTW, that ship has sailed. It may be adjusted but will not be reversed.

StarOfElyon · September 2023

Amottica wrote: »

I do not see a proposal on how to go about reversing hybridization other than just a suggestion to do something named to do it. Since hybridization came about in more than one update there is not a simple reversal.

And BTW, that ship has sailed. It may be adjusted but will not be reversed.

They don't have to fully reverse hybridization, only a few of the recent changes. For example, the suggestion that I made already would be a good reversal:

StarOfElyon wrote: »

...
I think all skills scaling with the highest stat was a step too far to making hybrids viable. Reverse that so that stamina skills scale with weapon damage and Magicka skills scale with spell damage.
...

FoJul · September 2023

Amottica wrote: »

I do not see a proposal on how to go about reversing hybridization other than just a suggestion to do something named to do it. Since hybridization came about in more than one update there is not a simple reversal.

And BTW, that ship has sailed. It may be adjusted but will not be reversed.

I've seen many comments from older forums about *that ship has sailed*, and that exact topic be the next major change in the new update.

It won't even get attention if people aren't talking about it. That's the whole point of the thread.

Also, it is much easier NOW to build into 40k hp and do more damage than said pre-hybridization.

The proposal for reverse hybridization. Would be reversing hybridization. Or at least, trying to make magicka/stamina scaling better than what it is now.

JerBearESO · September 2023

I love hybridization.... It for sure needs more follow up, which we have seen ignored, which is sad. But we do not need a return to non hybrid. We just need this thing to evolve to where it should be, and for people to FOR THE LOVE IF ALL THAT IS HOLY stop saying there are Magicka builds and stamina builds.... There are melee and ranged, there are fighter and mage, but Magicka and stamina are just resources now. My Magicka focused NB uses silver shards as a spammable and it works fine....

Jimbru · September 2023

The problem I see with hybridization is that a lot of class identity and unique play has been lost. It seems like the majority of DPS builds now are using the exact same gear, same EVERYTHING regardless of class, with the only difference being the class abilities. It's becoming so generic that you might as well give everyone a white t-shirt with black letters saying "DPS", and that's a bigger problem than I think many people realize.

Zama666 · September 2023

I am ok with changing it back. This what we do!

Or let's add some fun to the game. Everything scales off your lowest stat....
(tee hee)

Amottica · September 2023

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

I do not see a proposal on how to go about reversing hybridization other than just a suggestion to do something named to do it. Since hybridization came about in more than one update there is not a simple reversal.

And BTW, that ship has sailed. It may be adjusted but will not be reversed.

They don't have to fully reverse hybridization, only a few of the recent changes. For example, the suggestion that I made already would be a good reversal:

That is not the request in the OP.

FoJul · September 2023

Amottica wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

I do not see a proposal on how to go about reversing hybridization other than just a suggestion to do something named to do it. Since hybridization came about in more than one update there is not a simple reversal.

And BTW, that ship has sailed. It may be adjusted but will not be reversed.

They don't have to fully reverse hybridization, only a few of the recent changes. For example, the suggestion that I made already would be a good reversal:

That is not the request in the OP.

Correct, I personally think hybridization was a fail. I think it would be easier to revert back and try to go about it from a different angle. You can't leave old scaling/buffs in, and change how damage is calculated and expect there to be balance in the classes. Some classes can benefit more from hybridization than other classes.

2 examples from the top of my head would be Ranged Nightblade compared to melee nightblade. Melee is using a ranged burst ability and using it more effective than a ranged build could use it. Which ultimately killed the ranged playstyle.

Another example would be, sorcerers scaling is still more useful when stacking max mag. Yes you can stack in HP and still survive. So if I'm building into hp and mag, that leaves less room for stamina. When all the other classes can just play one hybrid playstyle and have plenty of stam and magicka because their scaling has nothing to do with resources scaling.

The builds that do rely on resource scaling falls behind other playstyles like hyrbid blade/ hyrbid DK/ Hybrid Plar.

This is because they made hybridization a thing without giving a class balance of stamin/magicka skills and scaling differences.

Hybridization would be fine if they fixed other classes/playstyles tool kit to fit the current META, rather than leave it AS IS and let only 3 core playstyles be everyones builds.

What has this caused? Everyone using the same 5-6 sets just in different combos, and some classes performing better than others with these same sets. Everyone is using procs to carry their damage and spamming burst heals to keep them alive. Another thing, it has caused, is every class no matter what it be, has one playstyle that's stronger than its own counter parts. Hybrid>Mag=Stam=Weapond dmg=spell damage. It killed uniqueness.

When you make a build and your using magic based skills and its scaling off of weapon damage and weapon crit. There is no point in trying to be creative, when only one matters anyways.

Master Dual wield is carrying almost all melee playstyles. That is an issue in itself.

There's a lot of things that you got to consider when it comes to Hybridization that everyone including the devs overlook. So why not just start over?

I understand there is always going to be a BiS method for each class and playstyles. But when the BiS is the same for every class and playstyle, and it is almost 3 times better than the counterparts, this is an issue.

Just remember when someone complains about a 20k Merciless resolve, that its a magic damage ability and before hybridization they rarely hit over 10k. Similar to the other burst abilities in the game.

Its one of those things, where you just had to be there to know what I'm talking about.

CameraBeardThePirate · September 2023

Stacking health and still having damage isn't the fault of hybridization. It's the fault of the extra base stats that ZOS gave everyone when CP 2.0 rolled around.

Their intent was to cut back on power creep by reworking CP, but for some inexplicable reason, they decided to give everyone 2k flat weapon and spell damage, and 2-3k flat resources (don't remember the number exactly, and health might've been a larger number).

That 2k weapon/spell damage is what really enables these high health builds. Before CP 2.0, you simply wouldn't have had the damage to stack so high into health.

FoJul · September 2023

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Stacking health and still having damage isn't the fault of hybridization. It's the fault of the extra base stats that ZOS gave everyone when CP 2.0 rolled around.

Their intent was to cut back on power creep by reworking CP, but for some inexplicable reason, they decided to give everyone 2k flat weapon and spell damage, and 2-3k flat resources (don't remember the number exactly, and health might've been a larger number).

That 2k weapon/spell damage is what really enables these high health builds. Before CP 2.0, you simply wouldn't have had the damage to stack so high into health.

Yeah, ok that might be the case for the High HP builds. But when I say that merciless resolve is magic and with dual wield axes we get extra weapon damage. Nightblades passive gives them weapon crit. before hybridization these modifiers did not apply to merciless resolve or concealed. Now they do.

DrNukenstein · September 2023

Agree on the real problem being CP2.0

Nearly all stats have diminishing returns by virtue of being additive with themselves, the exception is resistances up to 33k.

They give you like 70% of your damage stats for existing, and the rest comes from build choices. If they took away the free stats you would have to build for damage to do damage.

At the end of all modifiers and build decisions, what you do with your 64 points accounts for less than 10% of your damage if melee and 15% if ranged. That really is a glaring design flaw that could be fixed in a single update if ZOS considered getting rid of tanky-healy-damage-dealy goons to be a priority. Might I suggest removing pool stats from the damage and healing formula, and making pool stats above base value provide a %modifier. Make this modifier consider bonus stam and mag, then replace % mag or stam passives with sustain or damage bonuses depending on the intention of the passive.

boi_anachronism_ · September 2023

FoJul wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

I do not see a proposal on how to go about reversing hybridization other than just a suggestion to do something named to do it. Since hybridization came about in more than one update there is not a simple reversal.

And BTW, that ship has sailed. It may be adjusted but will not be reversed.

They don't have to fully reverse hybridization, only a few of the recent changes. For example, the suggestion that I made already would be a good reversal:

That is not the request in the OP.

Correct, I personally think hybridization was a fail. I think it would be easier to revert back and try to go about it from a different angle. You can't leave old scaling/buffs in, and change how damage is calculated and expect there to be balance in the classes. Some classes can benefit more from hybridization than other classes.

2 examples from the top of my head would be Ranged Nightblade compared to melee nightblade. Melee is using a ranged burst ability and using it more effective than a ranged build could use it. Which ultimately killed the ranged playstyle.

Another example would be, sorcerers scaling is still more useful when stacking max mag. Yes you can stack in HP and still survive. So if I'm building into hp and mag, that leaves less room for stamina. When all the other classes can just play one hybrid playstyle and have plenty of stam and magicka because their scaling has nothing to do with resources scaling.

The builds that do rely on resource scaling falls behind other playstyles like hyrbid blade/ hyrbid DK/ Hybrid Plar.

This is because they made hybridization a thing without giving a class balance of stamin/magicka skills and scaling differences.

Hybridization would be fine if they fixed other classes/playstyles tool kit to fit the current META, rather than leave it AS IS and let only 3 core playstyles be everyones builds.

What has this caused? Everyone using the same 5-6 sets just in different combos, and some classes performing better than others with these same sets. Everyone is using procs to carry their damage and spamming burst heals to keep them alive. Another thing, it has caused, is every class no matter what it be, has one playstyle that's stronger than its own counter parts. Hybrid>Mag=Stam=Weapond dmg=spell damage. It killed uniqueness.

When you make a build and your using magic based skills and its scaling off of weapon damage and weapon crit. There is no point in trying to be creative, when only one matters anyways.

Master Dual wield is carrying almost all melee playstyles. That is an issue in itself.

There's a lot of things that you got to consider when it comes to Hybridization that everyone including the devs overlook. So why not just start over?

I understand there is always going to be a BiS method for each class and playstyles. But when the BiS is the same for every class and playstyle, and it is almost 3 times better than the counterparts, this is an issue.

Just remember when someone complains about a 20k Merciless resolve, that its a magic damage ability and before hybridization they rarely hit over 10k. Similar to the other burst abilities in the game.

Its one of those things, where you just had to be there to know what I'm talking about.

Easier to revert back? Bro. Literally everyone would have to redo every single build they currently have. Do you know what an uproar this would be? They aint gone do that, especially with everything going on rn.

CameraBeardThePirate · September 2023

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Agree on the real problem being CP2.0

Nearly all stats have diminishing returns by virtue of being additive with themselves, the exception is resistances up to 33k.

They give you like 70% of your damage stats for existing, and the rest comes from build choices. If they took away the free stats you would have to build for damage to do damage.

At the end of all modifiers and build decisions, what you do with your 64 points accounts for less than 10% of your damage if melee and 15% if ranged. That really is a glaring design flaw that could be fixed in a single update if ZOS considered getting rid of tanky-healy-damage-dealy goons to be a priority. Might I suggest removing pool stats from the damage and healing formula, and making pool stats above base value provide a %modifier. Make this modifier consider bonus stam and mag, then replace % mag or stam passives with sustain or damage bonuses depending on the intention of the passive.

Furthering this problem - you get WAY more Health from attribute points than other stats. It's almost a no brainer to put most of your attribute points into health because it's simply the most efficient and you can grab your stam/mag elsewhere.

DrNukenstein · September 2023

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Furthering this problem - you get WAY more Health from attribute points than other stats. It's almost a no brainer to put most of your attribute points into health because it's simply the most efficient and you can grab your stam/mag elsewhere.

This. The only reason to not go 64 health is to flex on others. You can sustain stamina forever in medium armor with base values. It's how my build works. I tried doing the same thing with mag in light armor, and it's like the same dynamic but with infinite rolls and break frees on top of virtually infinite mag (noticeably worse mitigation and damage though).

Then whatever damage you lose is more than made up for in the next 2 seconds when you don't have to immediately heal after the counter. Yes, health is a damage stat too.

FoJul · September 2023

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

I do not see a proposal on how to go about reversing hybridization other than just a suggestion to do something named to do it. Since hybridization came about in more than one update there is not a simple reversal.

And BTW, that ship has sailed. It may be adjusted but will not be reversed.

They don't have to fully reverse hybridization, only a few of the recent changes. For example, the suggestion that I made already would be a good reversal:

That is not the request in the OP.

Correct, I personally think hybridization was a fail. I think it would be easier to revert back and try to go about it from a different angle. You can't leave old scaling/buffs in, and change how damage is calculated and expect there to be balance in the classes. Some classes can benefit more from hybridization than other classes.

2 examples from the top of my head would be Ranged Nightblade compared to melee nightblade. Melee is using a ranged burst ability and using it more effective than a ranged build could use it. Which ultimately killed the ranged playstyle.

Another example would be, sorcerers scaling is still more useful when stacking max mag. Yes you can stack in HP and still survive. So if I'm building into hp and mag, that leaves less room for stamina. When all the other classes can just play one hybrid playstyle and have plenty of stam and magicka because their scaling has nothing to do with resources scaling.

The builds that do rely on resource scaling falls behind other playstyles like hyrbid blade/ hyrbid DK/ Hybrid Plar.

This is because they made hybridization a thing without giving a class balance of stamin/magicka skills and scaling differences.

Hybridization would be fine if they fixed other classes/playstyles tool kit to fit the current META, rather than leave it AS IS and let only 3 core playstyles be everyones builds.

What has this caused? Everyone using the same 5-6 sets just in different combos, and some classes performing better than others with these same sets. Everyone is using procs to carry their damage and spamming burst heals to keep them alive. Another thing, it has caused, is every class no matter what it be, has one playstyle that's stronger than its own counter parts. Hybrid>Mag=Stam=Weapond dmg=spell damage. It killed uniqueness.

When you make a build and your using magic based skills and its scaling off of weapon damage and weapon crit. There is no point in trying to be creative, when only one matters anyways.

Master Dual wield is carrying almost all melee playstyles. That is an issue in itself.

There's a lot of things that you got to consider when it comes to Hybridization that everyone including the devs overlook. So why not just start over?

I understand there is always going to be a BiS method for each class and playstyles. But when the BiS is the same for every class and playstyle, and it is almost 3 times better than the counterparts, this is an issue.

Just remember when someone complains about a 20k Merciless resolve, that its a magic damage ability and before hybridization they rarely hit over 10k. Similar to the other burst abilities in the game.

Its one of those things, where you just had to be there to know what I'm talking about.

Easier to revert back? Bro. Literally everyone would have to redo every single build they currently have. Do you know what an uproar this would be? They aint gone do that, especially with everything going on rn.

I can say this, the entire build making meta changed drastically when hybridization came out. So really hybridization is what threw a monkey wrench into everything.

I think actually build making will be better if hybridization is as changed, and possibly removing base stats(as this was added during hybridization aswell)

That’s why I said there was a lot of changes that go unnoticed around all these updates.