If you're not going to balance the objective modes, please at least rework the way respawns work

CameraBeardThePirate · August 2023

In an objective mode, dying is a boon ~60% of the time. Why? Because respawns are set waves - without a minimum respawn time, often you can release in just a couple of seconds. This makes dying beneficial as it essentially allows for a free rotation. It's one of the silliest parts of the objective modes, because oftentimes defending against or killing someone just means they get to move to the next objective well before anyone else.

OBJnoob · August 2023

I'd ask how you arrived at "60%" but... Don't really wanna hear the crud behind that made up number.

In CtR dying will put you in a position to help defend your own relic. IF it's even under attack and IF you get a short respawn. I've literally never heard of anyone dying on purpose to do so nor have I EVER heard of someone killing someone else 2 seconds slower, on purpose, to give them a longer respawn. It's not a thing in this game and that's largely because there is no need to gib.

In Chaosball there's no telling where the action might be and so how long it takes you to get back after death is highly randomized and only reliably dependant on which team has it. If it's your team, holding the ball in your spawn, then that's nice. It's still not as good as not having died though.

In the two flag games it really depends on which flags are available and when.

This is a silly topic with 0 substance. That being said... I am not opposed to having a mandatory and unalterable 10 second respawn. But, for me, that's because I feel like I get 19 as often as I get 1, and I just really don't like getting 19. But trying to skew it as being advantageous is wrong. Sometimes it is... Sometimes it isn't... Almost impossible to control... Not worth talking about.

CameraBeardThePirate · August 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

I'd ask how you arrived at "60%" but... Don't really wanna hear the crud behind that made up number.

In CtR dying will put you in a position to help defend your own relic. IF it's even under attack and IF you get a short respawn. I've literally never heard of anyone dying on purpose to do so nor have I EVER heard of someone killing someone else 2 seconds slower, on purpose, to give them a longer respawn. It's not a thing in this game and that's largely because there is no need to gib.

In Chaosball there's no telling where the action might be and so how long it takes you to get back after death is highly randomized and only reliably dependant on which team has it. If it's your team, holding the ball in your spawn, then that's nice. It's still not as good as not having died though.

In the two flag games it really depends on which flags are available and when.

This is a silly topic with 0 substance. That being said... I am not opposed to having a mandatory and unalterable 10 second respawn. But, for me, that's because I feel like I get 19 as often as I get 1, and I just really don't like getting 19. But trying to skew it as being advantageous is wrong. Sometimes it is... Sometimes it isn't... Almost impossible to control... Not worth talking about.

It's absolutely worth talking about. A few points:

The ~60% is an estimate. More often than not is the key takeaway.

Any time there is a tri team fight, the team that dies first (so long as the fight is not at their own spawn) is at an instant advantage. Why? Because on the vast majority of maps, rotating to whichever objective that team decides to go for will always take longer, as the remaining two teams will still be caught in a fight over whichever objective they're currently fighting over.

TTK is too long, so the team that dies first in a tri fight simply gets a head start to the next objective. At most, they have to wait 20 seconds to start their rotation to the next objective. In most scenarios, the remaining two teams will be fighting for longer than that. You should be punished for dying, not given a Flash Pass to the next objective.

OBJnoob · August 2023

I understand that you arbitrarily picked a number higher than 50, lol, but yes thank you for saying it's only an estimate.

I still think your estimate is a bit high. Dying is not an advantage at all if the mode is DM. I believe I made a good case for why it isn't advantageous for Chaosball or Capture the Relic. It can be... But it's uncontrollable, and there are too many factors at play. Giving it 50 for these modes would be extremely generous. I'll estimate 30%, and I feel that is being generous. You didn't really respond to those comments so I'll assume you agree.

So we're really just talking about the two flag games then, right? Honestly I'll give it an estimated advantageous rating of 75 or 80%. But here's the catch... That's only in the way you describe it.

I really recommend you stop trying to play every mode as a 4-man. Splitting up is clearly the best strategy, or we wouldn't be having this conversation about how dying is advantageous. If YOUR team splits up then the other team's advantageous deaths plummet.

Let's just be honest and admit this is just another attempt to make the Deathmatch style of play the only viable strategy for winning any BG ever. And then let's sweep it under the rug where all the others went.

TLDR version: Dying isn't an advantage. You just fail to grasp how to win. And it's an intentional failure, so why should we care?

El_Borracho · August 2023

The only mode where the location of the respawn is advantageous is Chaosball, and that is only if you are able to bring the Chaosball to your team's respawn, and the only advantage is when you die, you are immediately able to rejoin the defense upon spawning. But no, dying is never advantageous. If it was, wouldn't players run up to opponents and try to die?