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Return Motif releases to normal!
laniakea_0
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Since the release of Markarth, ZOS has decided not to release all motifs at the same time as the expansion they belong to. This needs to stop! It doesn't add replayability, only grind. I myself actively avoid purchasing DLC until all the content that should be part of it actually is part of it. Which is why the Chapter celebrations are so deceitful in particular! They generally happen before all motifs of the chapter are available. With the Secrets of the Telvanni Event at the end of September, this could happen yet again. I really hope ZOS can be made to see reason before then. Especially, now that there won't be a Q3 DLC and no area expansion in Q4, the time is right to stop delaying motifs! So that in Q1 2024, when the next new Motifs should come to the game, everything will be back to how it was before Markarth. ZOS can still release the crown store versions of these motifs once a month if they so choose but keeping anything from us that should've been part of the purchase to begin with, is completely out of line and only serves to anger loyal players! I invite all the people on this forum to join me in this discussion and make your voices heard. If there is any more content that suffers from the same issue, please bring it up. Maybe then this madness will finally find it's end!
Edit: Apparently, this issue has been around since before Markarth. My mistake but certainly even worse from ZOS's side.
Edited by laniakea_0 on July 31, 2023 2:47PM Edit: Apparently, this issue has been around since before Markarth. My mistake but certainly even worse from ZOS's side.
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tomofhyrule✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It's been like this since before Markarth.
Granted, I started after Elsweyr, but I do remember that we had every dungeon DLC with motifs showing up months later; SElsweyr's Dragonguard was out right away but it took another update before Shield of Senchal started to drop; Greymoor was dropping Blackreach Vanguard on release but we had to wait for Sea Giant and Greymoor...
The idea they have behind it is that people will run the content when it is the new hotness. After the new car smell has worn off, the motifs dropping is a way to get people back into the content for a while. After all, ask yourself how many people are still doing the dailies for Spencer Rye for the Outlaw motifs.
And the other thing - some of these motifs aren't actually programmed into the game at release. As an example, Kindred's Concord is not in the files for ESO until U39. They can't release it until U39 because the files don't exist yet. Yes, they have the models for them in game on enemies, but the collectibles are not even in the menu and there's no corresponding motif book.4 -
rauyran✭✭✭✭Who's to say what content belongs with what expansion? Just because ZOS announce a new motif, doesn't mean it must be immediately available. If they didn't announce the motif until it was ready to drop then would that be okay in your view?
Otherwise, if you follow your argument to it's logical conclusion then ZOS would never be able to revisit an expansion or zone to add new content, drops or rewards. It would be forever frozen in it's released state.
They clearly want to stage releases of content to increase playability. If they didn't then they would soon face accusations of running out of content. Staging content gives players a reason to go back and replay some of the content.3 -
laniakea_0✭✭✭✭tomofhyrule wrote: »It's been like this since before Markarth.
Granted, I started after Elsweyr, but I do remember that we had every dungeon DLC with motifs showing up months later; SElsweyr's Dragonguard was out right away but it took another update before Shield of Senchal started to drop; Greymoor was dropping Blackreach Vanguard on release but we had to wait for Sea Giant and Greymoor...
The idea they have behind it is that people will run the content when it is the new hotness. After the new car smell has worn off, the motifs dropping is a way to get people back into the content for a while. After all, ask yourself how many people are still doing the dailies for Spencer Rye for the Outlaw motifs.
And the other thing - some of these motifs aren't actually programmed into the game at release. As an example, Kindred's Concord is not in the files for ESO until U39. They can't release it until U39 because the files don't exist yet. Yes, they have the models for them in game on enemies, but the collectibles are not even in the menu and there's no corresponding motif book.
are you sure? I only recall Wayward Guardian being outright missing...0 -
Dagoth_Rac✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭This is a very old practice. I recall that the House motifs (Hlaalu, Redoran, Telvanni) did not drop on release of Morrowind and were only rolled out later. Heck, the Trial motif in Morrowind (Refabricated) took like a year and a half. I don't know if motifs need to all come out immediately with DLC/Chapter, but I do think ZOS can go overboard in how slow they roll out. There was literally no motif in Galen on release. I think it took like 6 or 8 months to get any motif in Galen, which is excessive.5 -
laniakea_0✭✭✭✭Who's to say what content belongs with what expansion? Just because ZOS announce a new motif, doesn't mean it must be immediately available. If they didn't announce the motif until it was ready to drop then would that be okay in your view?
Otherwise, if you follow your argument to it's logical conclusion then ZOS would never be able to revisit an expansion or zone to add new content, drops or rewards. It would be forever frozen in it's released state.
They clearly want to stage releases of content to increase playability. If they didn't then they would soon face accusations of running out of content. Staging content gives players a reason to go back and replay some of the content.
Of course the Motif belongs with the expansion! Alongside with the Achievements, the Motifs are the primary reward for a specific activity. Adding the reward after the activity means delay or grind but no replayability. It doesn't make you "revisit" an area, because without the reason to do that activity you spent less time in the expansion to begin with. So you can either go through the grind to get the achievement and then do it all over again for the motif, or you wait until it's both available. The style itself is also in the game at release, the new sets of a zone generally use those styles. All they have to do is add it to the loot list. So it's not about announcement, it's about activity and reward and it doesn't add replayability because it doesn't add any new activities, only the reward it should've had to begin with.
As for your second point, there is nothing that prevents them from doing that. The daily quests are designed to be the means for obtaining rewards. motifs, recipes, that sort of stuff. They absolutely require the reward to fulfill it's purpose and to be worthwhile. Otherwise there would be a gap in the content design, an activity without pay-off. However, that doesn't mean ZOS can't add new rewards beyond what the expansion was originally designed to offer.Edited by laniakea_0 on July 31, 2023 3:06PM3 -
tomofhyrule✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭laniakea_0 wrote: »tomofhyrule wrote: »It's been like this since before Markarth.
Granted, I started after Elsweyr, but I do remember that we had every dungeon DLC with motifs showing up months later; SElsweyr's Dragonguard was out right away but it took another update before Shield of Senchal started to drop; Greymoor was dropping Blackreach Vanguard on release but we had to wait for Sea Giant and Greymoor...
The idea they have behind it is that people will run the content when it is the new hotness. After the new car smell has worn off, the motifs dropping is a way to get people back into the content for a while. After all, ask yourself how many people are still doing the dailies for Spencer Rye for the Outlaw motifs.
And the other thing - some of these motifs aren't actually programmed into the game at release. As an example, Kindred's Concord is not in the files for ESO until U39. They can't release it until U39 because the files don't exist yet. Yes, they have the models for them in game on enemies, but the collectibles are not even in the menu and there's no corresponding motif book.
are you sure? I only recall Wayward Guardian being outright missing...
From the ones since Elsweyr's year...
Wrathstone release: Feb 25, 2019 Elsweyr release: May 20, 2019 (early access) Scalebreaker release: Aug 12, 2019 Dragonhold release: Oct 21, 2019
I only started then, but I can look back and see there were earlier ones also offset like that. Heck, the HoF trial from Morrowind's release didn't get its motif to release until 2019.
So no, it's always had this delay. Fortunately, that does suggest that we'll get the Scrivener's motif in August, and then the trial ones tend to start dropping in September, which may suggest October for Kindred's Concord.3 -
laniakea_0✭✭✭✭Huh, that actually checks out. I wasn't doing dungeons at that time and when I got around to area dailies, I guess I didn't notice that they weren't dropping right away or I was still busy with older content. But to be fair, New Moon felt like an extra that wasn't strictly needed for already existing activities, it was just the box.0
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Dragonnord✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭It's fine they are doing it this way, not olnly with motifs, but Leads, etc.. Otherwise you would never visit a zone/DLC again.
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laniakea_0✭✭✭✭Dragonnord wrote: »It's fine they are doing it this way, not olnly with motifs, but Leads, etc.. Otherwise you would never visit a zone/DLC again.
Doesn't make a difference. Whether they delay the content or release it right away. In total, you still spend the same amount of time in the expansion and you still wait the same amount of time until new content releases. moving around when something comes out doesn't change the overall time spent. And if they release new content once a quarter anyway, why would they even need to spread out the content? that's a rather short wait. all spreading out does is dilute the experience but it never adds to it.1 -
laniakea_0✭✭✭✭@Dragonnord Also, Leads are an entirely different situation. They actually are a fairly decent reason to revisit a zone.0
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Dragonnord✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭laniakea_0 wrote: »Dragonnord wrote: »It's fine they are doing it this way, not olnly with motifs, but Leads, etc.. Otherwise you would never visit a zone/DLC again.
Doesn't make a difference. Whether they delay the content or release it right away. In total, you still spend the same amount of time in the expansion and you still wait the same amount of time until new content releases. moving around when something comes out doesn't change the overall time spent. And if they release new content once a quarter anyway, why would they even need to spread out the content? that's a rather short wait. all spreading out does is dilute the experience but it never adds to it.
Well, clearly ZOS doesn't see it that way, and I agree with them.
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laniakea_0✭✭✭✭Dragonnord wrote: »laniakea_0 wrote: »Dragonnord wrote: »It's fine they are doing it this way, not olnly with motifs, but Leads, etc.. Otherwise you would never visit a zone/DLC again.
Doesn't make a difference. Whether they delay the content or release it right away. In total, you still spend the same amount of time in the expansion and you still wait the same amount of time until new content releases. moving around when something comes out doesn't change the overall time spent. And if they release new content once a quarter anyway, why would they even need to spread out the content? that's a rather short wait. all spreading out does is dilute the experience but it never adds to it.
Well, clearly ZOS doesn't see it that way, and I agree with them.
Really? You agree with them? How can you even be sure that your reasons are their reasons? This could just easily be about their profit margin. Look at it this way. They add one new Motif per month to the Crown Store. If this is about maximizing financial gain, not releasing the motif right away serves to ensure the Motif's scarcity when they do put it up for sale. That way, players that want the Motif right away don't have the option to gain it, trade it or buy & sell it for gold and are therefore more inclined to buy it with crowns. Speculation of course. We don't know why they do it because they won't tell us. the only thing we can say for sure is that delaying content doesn't make you spend more time within the DLC. We are not even talking about new content here, it's content the expansion is supposed to have anyway.4 -
JoeCapricorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Firesong was kinda DOA and I had little interest in playing it because it didn't have any motifs at launch (not even as achievements)
Meh, I would prefer them all drop at the same time.
Still wondering if we'll ever get "Reach Winter" motif.I simp for vampire lords and Glemyos Wildhorn3 -
laniakea_0✭✭✭✭JoeCapricorn wrote: »Still wondering if we'll ever get "Reach Winter" motif.
probably not. but they did release the 3 weight types of that style as outfits in 20150 -
laniakea_0✭✭✭✭@JoeCapricorn absolutely agree with you. I did play the story pretty soon after release because I wanted to conclude the year long adventure but I only came back to Firesong a couple months back when they finally gave us the motif.0
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valenwood_vegan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I don't love the staggered releases, but I understand why they do it.
They took it way too far with Galen - a zone shouldn't be released with no motifs. But then again, they gave it away for free at one time lol, so maybe they recognized their failure to some extent.1 -
laniakea_0✭✭✭✭valenwood_vegan wrote: »I don't love the staggered releases, but I understand why they do it.
They took it way too far with Galen - a zone shouldn't be released with no motifs. But then again, they gave it away for free at one time lol, so maybe they recognized their failure to some extent.
Same thing happened with Deadlands and that one at least still had House Hexos style at launch.
If I may ask, what is your understanding of why they do it? I don't think what they do is justified at all.0 -
valenwood_vegan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Oh I certainly didn't say it's justified, I just mean that they're a business... they unfortunately likely have profit / engagement driven reasons that are unrelated to player enjoyment. I don't really want to start speculating about their motivations and getting myself in trouble though.
I do wish they would release at least most, if not all, of the motifs right from the start.1 -
laniakea_0✭✭✭✭[snip] Last time they talked to us about the player base they said it was still growing. ESO was getting increasingly profitable. With stand-alone DLC sales and ESO+ subscriptions they should have plenty of money and resources. So why are they trying to extract more and more money from us? [snip]
[edited for bashing]
Edit: not sure why this was edited. this wasn't bashing, I was merely criticising ZOS's actions and pointing out a realistic motive.Edited by laniakea_0 on August 5, 2023 8:23AM1 -
laniakea_0✭✭✭✭Correct me if I'm wrong, but does this issue also apply to furniture recipes? I feel like those Legendary Recipes sold by Rolis Hlaalu also used to be released at the same time as the expansions. now it's a whole Quarter later.0
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MasterSpatula✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Look, everyone knows that if you want customer satisfaction, you push your customers into content that they've grown weary with. It's just common sense!"A probable impossibility is preferable to an improbable possibility." - Aristotle3 -
Faint_One✭✭✭They delay my last 50 achievement point by firesong last patch，then delay my last mora motif next patch，so we don't have even 1 day to reach full achievement，I chasing last 50 point forever
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LunaFlora✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭laniakea_0 wrote: »Correct me if I'm wrong, but does this issue also apply to furniture recipes? I feel like those Legendary Recipes sold by Rolis Hlaalu also used to be released at the same time as the expansions. now it's a whole Quarter later.
at least those actually release with the update they come in instead of months later like the motifs which usually come one per monthmiaow! i'm Luna ( she/her ).
🌸*throws cherry blossom on you*🌸
"Eagles advance, traveler! And may the Green watch and keep you."
🦬🦌🐰
PlayStation and PC EU.
LunaLolaBlossom on psn.
LunaFloraBlossom on pc.1 -
Dark_Lord_Kuro✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭It actually was like that for even longer. Dungeon motif always released during the following dlc time frame. As for zones earlier most motif were released at launch with 1 in the following dlc cycle since at least thieve guild.
Thieve guild released with the dark brotherhood dlc
Dark brotherhood released with shadow of the hist
The 3 house motif released with horn of the reach
The welkinar released with wolfhunter
The honor guard released with wrathstone
Arround this time, motif started to have stagered release within the same dlc but kept the next dlc release of motif arround. It was usualy 1 motif with the dlc then the second of the dlc and followed by any previous dlc after. Completing the release just before the next dlc.
Then a year or 2 ago they started to have an even more stagered release with some starting to release much later than usual. Recent exemple is both the house monard and the firesong in spring instead of one with their dlc and the second in march/april
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laniakea_0✭✭✭✭wow. that is a horrifying revelation. this is straight up disrespectful. I paid for the DLC, it was released, there is no way delaying access to the content I paid for is ok. we really shouldn't have to point this out. it's awful!1
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BloodyStigmata✭✭✭✭✭
✭I distinctly remember Elder Argonian being completely unavailable until the following January after Murkmire released, so it's been like this a looooong time.
But yeah, no one has ever liked this.Owner and proprietor of the Northern Elsweyr Guar Reserve and The Hunting Grounds Guar Reserve, Tamriel's home to all things guar.See the embedded brochures for all information regarding our reserves, as well as our collection status!0 -
Necrotech_Master✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭i remember back in the day when there were only the 7 basic motifs + 4 purple motifs + imperial motif lol
it was a huge deal when dwemer motif was added lol (as that was the first one that split the motifs from being only whole books into chapters)plays PC/NA
handle @Necrotech_Master
active player since april 2014
i have my main house (grand topal hideaway) listed in the housing tours, it has multiple target dummies, scribing altar, and grandmaster stations (fully filled out with current game), as well as almost every antiquity furnishing on display to preview them
in progress: acquiring mundus stones (currently only have the thief)
feel free to stop by and use the facilities0 -
katanagirl1✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Necrotech_Master wrote: »i remember back in the day when there were only the 7 basic motifs + 4 purple motifs + imperial motif lol
it was a huge deal when dwemer motif was added lol (as that was the first one that split the motifs from being only whole books into chapters)
The beginning of the long grind…
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Dark Elf Magsorc
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Orc Stamplar PVP
Breton Magsorc PVP
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Dark Elf Magden
Khajiit Stamblade
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NotaDaedraWorshipper✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Dragonnord wrote: »It's fine they are doing it this way, not olnly with motifs, but Leads, etc.. Otherwise you would never visit a zone/DLC again.
No it more makes me not bother doing a zone at all until they finally release the motifs. It's unnecessary grinding.[Lie] Of course! I don't even worship Daedra!4 -
laniakea_0✭✭✭✭bump.
this thread kinda went under during that whole mess with login queue. but I would love to continue discussing this.0