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So does Zenimax Studios have an explanation for this situation involving a Trans employee ?
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spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭demonology89 wrote: »In a different world, ZOS wouldn't need to provide any explanation and this thread would have been shut down.
In a different world, this wouldn't have happened in the first place.16 -
demonology89✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »demonology89 wrote: »In a different world, ZOS wouldn't need to provide any explanation and this thread would have been shut down.
In a different world, this wouldn't have happened in the first place.
It's almost as if we're all human and make mistakes. Some more egregious than others.PS5 NA
ESO Plus: Yes
Current Activities: back after a 3-4 month break, I'm mainly ganking in GH or questing in Vvardenfell
#MakeHealersSquishyAgain #ClassIdentity #ExcitedfortheReignofNickandSusan7 -
tyrobia✭✭✭✭demonology89 wrote: »In a different world, ZOS wouldn't need to provide any explanation and this thread would have been shut down. This has absolutely nothing to do with the ESO game.
But go ahead with your torches and pitchforks and your frothing at the mouth to condemn the ESO team and your fellow ESO community members by forcing them to speak on things that didn't involve them. All hail the court of public opinion! /s
This thread is not anti-ZoS. However, you should be listening to trans people in this thread and in other places who have quit ESO and the reasons why they chose to quit. No matter what the truth is about the situation with Leona, ZoS needs to reaffirm it's commitment to making ESO a safe place for LGBT people, transgender people in particular, as well as ensuring that the workplace of the people who make this game is also safe!Edited by tyrobia on July 23, 2023 4:18PM11 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭demonology89 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »demonology89 wrote: »In a different world, ZOS wouldn't need to provide any explanation and this thread would have been shut down.
In a different world, this wouldn't have happened in the first place.
It's almost as if we're all human and make mistakes. Some more egregious than others.
Yes, so when mistakes are made, it is good to hear out both sides. This thread is as good place as any for ZOS to say they stand with LGBT community, even if they must also say they can't comment on situations with specific employees. Which is frankly all I'd expect them to say, if they say anything at all. I know that they probably can't comment on her specific case in too much detail.Edited by spartaxoxo on July 23, 2023 4:28PM9 -
demonology89✭✭✭✭demonology89 wrote: »In a different world, ZOS wouldn't need to provide any explanation and this thread would have been shut down. This has absolutely nothing to do with the ESO game.
But go ahead with your torches and pitchforks and your frothing at the mouth to condemn the ESO team and your fellow ESO community members by forcing them to speak on things that didn't involve them. All hail the court of public opinion! /s
This thread is not anti-ZoS. However, you should be listening to trans people in this thread and in other places who have quit ESO and the reasons why they chose to quit. No matter what the truth is about the situation with Leona, ZoS needs to reaffirm it's commitment to making ESO a safe place for LGBT people, transgender people in particular, as well as ensuring that the workplace of the people who make this game is also safe!
I didn't say this thread is anti-ZOS. But there are a few here demanding ZOS comment on the situation where I'm sure lawyers and HR have already told them not to ATM. In fact the thread title asks outright for an explanation. We are not judge and jury, and if civil rights were denied or laws broken in this case, it will be decided in a proper courtroom.PS5 NA
ESO Plus: Yes
Current Activities: back after a 3-4 month break, I'm mainly ganking in GH or questing in Vvardenfell
#MakeHealersSquishyAgain #ClassIdentity #ExcitedfortheReignofNickandSusan13 -
Narvuntien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭demonology89 wrote: »In a different world, ZOS wouldn't need to provide any explanation and this thread would have been shut down. This has absolutely nothing to do with the ESO game.
But go ahead with your torches and pitchforks and your frothing at the mouth to condemn the ESO team and your fellow ESO community members by forcing them to speak on things that didn't involve them. All hail the court of public opinion! /s
I have no torches or pitchforks, but, companies don't need you to defend them they have money and lawyers for that.
Do you not expect the companies that you give money to to be ethical? and if you find out they are not do you not ask that they be better?
Saying we all make mistakes when we are dealing with a company and not a person is like saying "Oh the building fell down, well we all make mistakes." Even if a single person makes a mistake there are multiple layers of people whose job it is to double-check for mistakes.
Why was there such a failure of HR in this case?8 -
Dr_Con✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Narvuntien wrote: »
You'll likely get a response out of a BBB complaint (Maybe Leona should file one tbh). The company has an A+ rating despite having a 1.25/5 customer satisfaction rating, which means they're responding to complaints on there as an A+ rating is likely impossible keep if they ignore complaints on there.Edited by Dr_Con on July 23, 2023 7:14PM1 -
ArchMikem✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »
You cant take medical leave for elective procedures. You need to take vacation. And coordinating vacation is always a two way street.Narvuntien wrote: »There are claims that a Trans Member of staff was fired, among other things, for being trans, at least taking medical leave for surgeries. From a company and a game that takes pride in being inclusive, this is very disappointing.
There's a lot of assumption here that's it is an elective procedure. But, that doesn't depends on a variety of factors. It is certainly something some insurances will cover and healthcare professionals will recommend as medically necessary for that particular patient.
I'm pretty sure the point most of them are trying to make by claiming it as Elective, is the Surgery isn't life saving. The patient is medically healthy without it.CP2,100 Master Explorer - AvA Two Star Warlord - Console Peasant - Khajiiti Aficionado - The Clan
Quest Objective: OMG Go Talk To That Kitty!8 -
RaikaNA✭✭✭✭✭
✭demonology89 wrote: »In a different world, ZOS wouldn't need to provide any explanation and this thread would have been shut down. This has absolutely nothing to do with the ESO game.
But go ahead with your torches and pitchforks and your frothing at the mouth to condemn the ESO team and your fellow ESO community members by forcing them to speak on things that didn't involve them. All hail the court of public opinion! /s
This thread is not anti-ZoS. However, you should be listening to trans people in this thread and in other places who have quit ESO and the reasons why they chose to quit. No matter what the truth is about the situation with Leona, ZoS needs to reaffirm it's commitment to making ESO a safe place for LGBT people, transgender people in particular, as well as ensuring that the workplace of the people who make this game is also safe!
As long as the trans people are also the ones that are listening too. Sorry people aren't quitting the game over some trans rights issues within the company. People are quitting the game because the bugs aren't being fixed, and the game is unplayable for some. There hasn't been a single PvP improvement in over 6 years yet every single chapter that comes out is purely pve and an endless amount of questing that is probably 90% repeatable. You can get fancy mounts and skins from completing veteran trials (Most people can't complete it because it's stuck under HM content), but you barely get anything from doing pvp. The reward system in this game sucks and sucks really bad. People are leaving the game because they're not being heard and don't like the direction that the game is heading.
Have you ever been to Cyrodill as of late? Especially in Greyhost where most of the time you can't even use your Ultimate because the server is so laggy that skills often don't work as intended. Did you know that people were being banned from ESO's official Twitch chat for simply saying "PvP". I don't know if that is the case now, but it was before.13 -
Syldras✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'm pretty sure the point most of them are trying to make by claiming it as Elective, is the Surgery isn't life saving. The patient is medically healthy without it.
As I already said, I'm from Europe, so I don't know about the laws and regulations in the USA. But at least in my country, surgeries are classified as neccessary if physical aspects cause intense emotional distress, also if the physical aspect itself is not life-threatening. And this doesn't only apply to gender/sex dysphoria, but for example to cases where someone has big burn scars at visible places. The scars are not dangerous themselves, but seeing them might be distressing or retraumatizing for the patient, or they could complicate social interaction because people are staring - if a psychologist writes an accessment that the patient is suffering because of this, a surgery is approved and paid for.@Syldras | PC | EU
The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire
Soris Rethandus, a Sleeper not yet awake10 -
Twig_Garlicshine✭✭✭✭demonology89 wrote: »In a different world, ZOS wouldn't need to provide any explanation and this thread would have been shut down. This has absolutely nothing to do with the ESO game.
But go ahead with your torches and pitchforks and your frothing at the mouth to condemn the ESO team and your fellow ESO community members by forcing them to speak on things that didn't involve them. All hail the court of public opinion! /s
This thread is not anti-ZoS. However, you should be listening to trans people in this thread and in other places who have quit ESO and the reasons why they chose to quit. No matter what the truth is about the situation with Leona, ZoS needs to reaffirm it's commitment to making ESO a safe place for LGBT people, transgender people in particular, as well as ensuring that the workplace of the people who make this game is also safe!
As long as the trans people are also the ones that are listening too. Sorry people aren't quitting the game over some trans rights issues within the company. People are quitting the game because the bugs aren't being fixed, and the game is unplayable for some. There hasn't been a single PvP improvement in over 6 years yet every single chapter that comes out is purely pve and an endless amount of questing that is probably 90% repeatable. You can get fancy mounts and skins from completing veteran trials (Most people can't complete it because it's stuck under HM content), but you barely get anything from doing pvp. The reward system in this game sucks and sucks really bad. People are leaving the game because they're not being heard and don't like the direction that the game is heading.
Have you ever been to Cyrodill as of late? Especially in Greyhost where most of the time you can't even use your Ultimate because the server is so laggy that skills often don't work as intended. Did you know that people were being banned from ESO's official Twitch chat for simply saying "PvP". I don't know if that is the case now, but it was before.
People quit games for many reasons not just the ones you have an opinion about.
When I quit playing Blizzard games it had nothing to do with the game itself,
just the company.
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Alinhbo_Tyaka✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »
You cant take medical leave for elective procedures. You need to take vacation. And coordinating vacation is always a two way street.Narvuntien wrote: »There are claims that a Trans Member of staff was fired, among other things, for being trans, at least taking medical leave for surgeries. From a company and a game that takes pride in being inclusive, this is very disappointing.
There's a lot of assumption here that's it is an elective procedure. But, that doesn't depends on a variety of factors. It is certainly something some insurances will cover and healthcare professionals will recommend as medically necessary for that particular patient.
I'm pretty sure the point most of them are trying to make by claiming it as Elective, is the Surgery isn't life saving. The patient is medically healthy without it.
In the medical sense elective does not equate to optional. It merely means that the surgery is scheduled as opposed to being wheeled from the ER to the operating room. Needing an arterial stent placed after a treadmill test is considered elective surgery because it is scheduled though it is also considered an urgent procedure. An eyebrow lift for vanity reasons is also an elective procedure but would be considered optional. Once you get into having to schedule a medical procedure the patient loses most of the control over the schedule. The main determining factors become the physician and hospital availability rather than convenience for the patient. I don't know enough about treatment for transgender people or how urgency is determined for transition related surgeries but I believe it is not generally considered optional by the physicians providing treatment. I also suspect that surgery schedules are more under the control of the physician and hospital rather than the patient.9 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »
You cant take medical leave for elective procedures. You need to take vacation. And coordinating vacation is always a two way street.Narvuntien wrote: »There are claims that a Trans Member of staff was fired, among other things, for being trans, at least taking medical leave for surgeries. From a company and a game that takes pride in being inclusive, this is very disappointing.
There's a lot of assumption here that's it is an elective procedure. But, that doesn't depends on a variety of factors. It is certainly something some insurances will cover and healthcare professionals will recommend as medically necessary for that particular patient.
I'm pretty sure the point most of them are trying to make by claiming it as Elective, is the Surgery isn't life saving. The patient is medically healthy without it.
Yes. And that's the point I responded to as well, earlier. It seemed to me that people were making a mistake by defining it only as medically necessary when it effects physical health, and mental health not being a factor. So, when I saw someone else essentially make that point again, I responded by pointing out that physical health isn't the only consideration. Both the FMLA (the relevant legislation effecting her case) and the health community in general consider mental health a factor.
I think it's important to understand that to understand why gender reassignment can be considered medically necessary depending on the patient. After all, it's readily apparent that it isn't like needing a kidney.
Mental health isn't a physical ailment. But, it can result in death and other really negative adverse outcomes for patients. So, it makes sense that access to mental health care has at least some protection based off the recommendations of health professionals.Edited by spartaxoxo on July 23, 2023 11:58PM7 -
Huggernaut✭✭✭✭As a transgender woman, who has had bottom surgery I can confirm that the surgery is not elective & is indeed very life saving & necessary.
I can also confirm that I don't get to set the schedule, my dr & the clinic I went to for the surgery did all that. it was entirely out of my control & in fact, once the paperwork is submitted, you have very little say in anything & it happens quite rapidly.
The Doctors give you dates & homework to do & they expect you to get those things done by those dates, or you don't get your surgery, it's as simple as that & for folks who have waited their entire lives to get this surgery, as a lot of generally commit suicide when this surgery isn't available, it's not something you are willing to pass up because you boss wants you get those TPS reports in by closing.
Also, not for nothing but there is A LOT of misinformation & just outright bigotry in this thread. If you don't have something nice to say, maybe you should just keep it to yourself. I'm not sure why bigots & racists suddenly think its ok to spout hate speech all of a sudden, but it's not. In fact, in Canada where I live, hate speech is a serious offense that carries 2 years of jail time.22 -
Soraka✭✭✭✭✭I was under the impression the FMLA and pto were already approved so that's not really the issue. Not 100% on that. Just if so it's basically not really the point to discuss whether or not FMLA should be approved for this situation.2
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Cazador✭✭✭✭✭Just want to add on to the whole elective surgery being covered or not thing. I had surgery on my sinuses done last month and I would have been mostly fine without it.
It was technically an elective surgery and my insurance covered it so I don't get the claims to the contrary.
Also, it may have been elective but I did need it. Elective surgery can be necessary for physical and/or mental health reasons.Edited by Cazador on July 24, 2023 3:01PM2 -
Rampeal✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »demonology89 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »demonology89 wrote: »In a different world, ZOS wouldn't need to provide any explanation and this thread would have been shut down.
In a different world, this wouldn't have happened in the first place.
It's almost as if we're all human and make mistakes. Some more egregious than others.
Yes, so when mistakes are made, it is good to hear out both sides. This thread is as good place as any for ZOS to say they stand with LGBT community, even if they must also say they can't comment on situations with specific employees. Which is frankly all I'd expect them to say, if they say anything at all. I know that they probably can't comment on her specific case in too much detail.
Personally and Professionally in my opinion no company should
"stand" or support any organization. A company should always be neutral. They are there to supply a service or goods, not to weigh in on political or moral debates. When you choose a side, it leads to bias towards the opposite, which leads to discrimination and denial of services. True equality is to be neutral.Edited by Rampeal on July 24, 2023 6:16PM10 -
kyatos_binarini✭✭✭This thread is not anti-ZoS. However, you should be listening to trans people in this thread and in other places who have quit ESO and the reasons why they chose to quit. No matter what the truth is about the situation with Leona, ZoS needs to reaffirm it's commitment to making ESO a safe place for LGBT people, transgender people in particular, as well as ensuring that the workplace of the people who make this game is also safe!
i always feel so jealous when reading such posts. in my homeland one can be sent to jail only for speaking about LGBT or transgender people
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Mirrrr✭✭✭Tyrant_Tim wrote: »Tyrant_Tim wrote: »Tyrant_Tim wrote: »Do you think that perhaps the reason they were fired had nothing to do with their transition?
Watch the video before you ask questions like this, dude.
As a paying employer, it is well within your right to want employees that aren’t constantly creating their own schedule due to an elective surgery, or process.
Which doubles back to the point I was making.
The reason they were fired had nothing to do with their transition, and everything to do with how their work ethic was being impacted.
Gender affirming care is not elective.
Yeah, good luck finding an insurance that will pay for your surgeries.
That's an us thing. Here it get paid by health insurance4 -
Gargath✭✭✭✭✭
✭LGBT community threads are those unique forum events where one can get an easy warning from ZOS for speaking what one thinks if one isn't careful. Obviously you can think and speak here one way only. So in protest I restrain from opinion. Though I find it amusing to read this many comments in such a trivial matter.PC EU (PL): 14 characters. ESO player since 06.08.2015. Farkas finest quote: "Some people don't think I'm smart. Those people get my fist. But you, I like."15 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »demonology89 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »demonology89 wrote: »In a different world, ZOS wouldn't need to provide any explanation and this thread would have been shut down.
In a different world, this wouldn't have happened in the first place.
It's almost as if we're all human and make mistakes. Some more egregious than others.
Yes, so when mistakes are made, it is good to hear out both sides. This thread is as good place as any for ZOS to say they stand with LGBT community, even if they must also say they can't comment on situations with specific employees. Which is frankly all I'd expect them to say, if they say anything at all. I know that they probably can't comment on her specific case in too much detail.
Personally and Professionally in my opinion no company should not "stand" or support any organization.
Transgender is not an organization. It is a demographic of human beings.12 -
Syldras✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭A company should always be neutral.
Neutral to the topic of equality and human rights?@Syldras | PC | EU
The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire
Soris Rethandus, a Sleeper not yet awake15 -
Shagreth✭✭✭✭✭
✭
I wouldn't be so sure about that, at least the evidence I've gathered so far says otherwise, they seek to empower each other, I get & respect that, but when you gang up on others and try to enforce X or Y (sorry for using X & Y, I swear it was not intentional) ideology and/or way of life and then proceed to cancel anything that clashes with your view.. then it's not very pure anymore, there's an agenda at play.spartaxoxo wrote: »Transgender is not an organization. It is a demographic of human beings.
I am all for human rights but tend to disagree politically with the Trans movement and gender identity laws, as a skeptic -- I find them ridiculous, at best. I say this with some reluctance as I am rather afraid of the banhammer, but this is all in good democratic spirit and the need to converse openly. Just hope this all settles soon, seeing humans fight each other over trivial matters such as this makes my brain itch, and I can't scratch my brain. I guess divide an conquer has never worked better.
Edited by Shagreth on July 24, 2023 6:22PM14 -
tyrobia✭✭✭✭
I wouldn't be so sure about that, at least the evidence I've gathered so far says otherwise, they seek to empower each other, I get & respect that, but when you gang up on others and try to enforce X or Y (sorry for using X & Y, I swear it was not intentional) ideology and/or way of life and then proceed to cancel anything that clashes with your view.. then it's not very pure anymore, there's an agenda at play.spartaxoxo wrote: »Transgender is not an organization. It is a demographic of human beings.
I am all for human rights but tend to disagree politically with the Trans movement and gender identity laws, as a skeptic -- I find them ridiculous, at best. I say this with some reluctance as I am rather afraid of the banhammer, but this is all in good democratic spirit and the need to converse openly. Just hope this all settles soon, seeing humans fight each other over trivial matters such as this makes me my brain itch, and I can't scratch my brain. I guess divide an conquer has never worked better.
Ah yes, the immense political power of the trans lobby, a group that makes up less than 1% of the population and is even less represented in business and government. Where have I heard this one before?16 -
Shagreth✭✭✭✭✭
✭
You mean globally or in the US? This phenomenon is mostly prevalent in the US. And no, their numbers aren't that great, but their voices are and there has been many cases of people getting silenced if they dared to voice a different opinion, myself included, and I assure you there was nothing hateful being spewed in any direction, I mostly like to observe. If we are to truly divide people into left and right -- I'm right in the middle, thinking they're both cynical and ultimately suck. There are real problems right now and seeing people spend energy over such matters is sad. Again, the person deserved to be fired, it had nothing to do with gender, they just played the victim card.Ah yes, the immense political power of the trans lobby, a group that makes up less than 1% of the population and is even less represented in business and government. Where have I heard this one before?
Edited by Shagreth on July 24, 2023 6:29PM12 -
Rampeal✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »demonology89 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »demonology89 wrote: »In a different world, ZOS wouldn't need to provide any explanation and this thread would have been shut down.
In a different world, this wouldn't have happened in the first place.
It's almost as if we're all human and make mistakes. Some more egregious than others.
Yes, so when mistakes are made, it is good to hear out both sides. This thread is as good place as any for ZOS to say they stand with LGBT community, even if they must also say they can't comment on situations with specific employees. Which is frankly all I'd expect them to say, if they say anything at all. I know that they probably can't comment on her specific case in too much detail.
Personally and Professionally in my opinion no company should not "stand" or support any organization.
Transgender is not an organization. It is a demographic of human beings.
Okay for the sake of semantics, A company should not support one demographic of human beings over others. Just like their shouldn't be support for one race more than others. You want LGBTQ advocacy and support? fine, I agree with you. There should also be a advocacy and support for straight people too. Equal rights is a two way street.
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fall0athboy✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »demonology89 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »demonology89 wrote: »In a different world, ZOS wouldn't need to provide any explanation and this thread would have been shut down.
In a different world, this wouldn't have happened in the first place.
It's almost as if we're all human and make mistakes. Some more egregious than others.
Yes, so when mistakes are made, it is good to hear out both sides. This thread is as good place as any for ZOS to say they stand with LGBT community, even if they must also say they can't comment on situations with specific employees. Which is frankly all I'd expect them to say, if they say anything at all. I know that they probably can't comment on her specific case in too much detail.
Personally and Professionally in my opinion no company should not "stand" or support any organization.
Transgender is not an organization. It is a demographic of human beings.
Okay for the sake of semantics, A company should not support one demographic of human beings over others. Just like their shouldn't be support for one race more than others. You want LGBTQ advocacy and support? fine, I agree with you. There should also be a advocacy and support for straight people too. Equal rights is a two way street.
Cool, so I have a question: What equal rights are straight people missing out on?17 -
tyrobia✭✭✭✭
You mean globally or in the US? This phenomenon is mostly prevalent in the US. And no, their numbers aren't that great, but their voices are and there has been many cases of people getting silenced if they dared to voice a different opinion, myself included, and I assure you there was nothing hateful being spewed in any direction, I mostly like to observe. If we are to truly divide people into left and right -- I'm right in the middle, thinking they're both cynical and ultimately suck. There are real problems right now and seeing people spend energy over such matters is sad. Again, the person deserved to be fired, it had nothing to do with gender, they just played the victim card.Ah yes, the immense political power of the trans lobby, a group that makes up less than 1% of the population and is even less represented in business and government. Where have I heard this one before?
You are daring to voice a differing opinion about what, exactly?7 -
ZOS_IcymodGreetings,
We have made the decision to close this thread in keeping with official ESO forum community rules. We would like to remind everyone that our forums are for discussion of The Elder Scrolls Online game.
Thank you.40
This discussion has been closed.