Why is Werewolf a separate ability bar but vampire not?

DTStormfox · July 2023

I've always wondered but never asked. Why is it that when you are a werewolf, you need to transform and get a separate ability bar whilst being transformed but when you are a vampire, you can slot vampire abilities on your normal 2 ability bars?

I believe it would be much easier to balance Vampire in the game when it requires a 'transformation' (of some sort) using an ultimate ability (similar to Werewolf, and could passively increase magicka recovery while slotted, giving it a magicka focus). It would also allow ZOS to make the abilities more 'themed' into vampirism than the more generic abilities it has now. Werewolves, for example, have this fantastic howl ability (Hircine's Bounty). Furthermore, it would make vampirism a speciality instead of 'something you just need for the passives' or 'something you need to slot that one vampire ability'.

Rageypoo · July 2023

I like that werewolf is a transform while vamp is not.

Tyrant_Tim · July 2023

One compromise could be that during the Vampire ultimate, it replaces your abilities with all of the vampire ones, with whatever morphs you’ve chosen.

DTStormfox · July 2023

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

One compromise could be that during the Vampire ultimate, it replaces your abilities with all of the vampire ones, with whatever morphs you’ve chosen.

That was kind of the idea behind my question and suggestion. This would mean that the ultimate needs some change but I think it would make vampirism much more of an added value than it currently is (in my opinion)

DTStormfox · July 2023

Rageypoo wrote: »

I like that werewolf is a transform while vamp is not.

Can you elaborate why?

I mean, I would find it much cooler when it would be a transformation into some kind of vampire lord and you could basically run an entire (or parts of a) dungeon or play in PvP in vampire transformation.

Soarora · July 2023

Vampires exist outside of a secondary form, unlike lycanthropes. Most vampires can’t even transform... Those turned by Lamae Bal can transform into Blood Scions. Those who are already vampires but are augmented using a specific method can transform into Bloodknights. Those who are a victim of Molag Bal or are turned by a victim of Molag Bal can transform into Vampire Lords. Any lesser vampire has no transformation outside of maybe turning into bats or mist but still possess vampiric traits and magic.

The only change I think should happen is a way to prolong Transformations that aren’t werewolf. Goliath by sucking up souls and vampire by dealing damage with vampire abilities maybe.

Dr_Con · July 2023

Soarora wrote: »

The only change I think should happen is a way to prolong Transformations that aren’t werewolf. Goliath by sucking up souls and vampire by dealing damage with vampire abilities maybe.

be careful now, we can't have people making too much sense

TX12001rwb17_ESO · July 2023

Because unlike Werewolves Vampires are Vampires are 24/7, I would rather my Vampire not need to transform to use basic Vampire abilities while NPCs who don't even have the power to transform can use them at a whim.

Tyrant_Tim · July 2023

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Because unlike Werewolves Vampires are Vampires are 24/7, I would rather my Vampire not need to transform to use basic Vampire abilities while NPCs who don't even have the power to transform can use them at a whim.

My suggestion wasn’t to restrict those abilities to ONLY the ultimate, but to give the ultimate a stronger identity by replacing your active skills with the vampire presets, similar to how Overload used to have a 3rd ability bar.

Regular non-Vamp Lords should definitely still be able to use those abilities.

DTStormfox · July 2023

Soarora wrote: »

Vampires exist outside of a secondary form, unlike lycanthropes. Most vampires can’t even transform... Those turned by Lamae Bal can transform into Blood Scions. Those who are already vampires but are augmented using a specific method can transform into Bloodknights. Those who are a victim of Molag Bal or are turned by a victim of Molag Bal can transform into Vampire Lords. Any lesser vampire has no transformation outside of maybe turning into bats or mist but still possess vampiric traits and magic.

So, basically, the lore could support the suggestion I am making. Make the ultimate (Blood Scion) a transform with two morphs (Bloodknight and Vampire Lord) and give each morph their own special lore-friendly buff.

I would go so far as to only allow the use of Vampire abilities and passives when you are transformed from a gameplay perspective but I noticed from other comments that there are different opinions on that and not 100% in line with the lore. Maybe that is another topic for another day.

Soarora · July 2023

DTStormfox wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Vampires exist outside of a secondary form, unlike lycanthropes. Most vampires can’t even transform... Those turned by Lamae Bal can transform into Blood Scions. Those who are already vampires but are augmented using a specific method can transform into Bloodknights. Those who are a victim of Molag Bal or are turned by a victim of Molag Bal can transform into Vampire Lords. Any lesser vampire has no transformation outside of maybe turning into bats or mist but still possess vampiric traits and magic.

So, basically, the lore could support the suggestion I am making. Make the ultimate (Blood Scion) a transform with two morphs (Bloodknight and Vampire Lord) and give each morph their own special lore-friendly buff.

I would go so far as to only allow the use of Vampire abilities and passives when you are transformed from a gameplay perspective but I noticed from other comments that there are different opinions on that and not 100% in line with the lore. Maybe that is another topic for another day.

The tutorial for vampirism is under Lamae Bal, you are a vampire of Lamae and thus you cannot be a Bloodknight or a Vampire Lord and vampire abilities/passives only being available during transformation has never been true. What is supported from a lore perspective is having additional spells and buffs accessible during transformation. I think a better suggestion would be that using a transformation vampire ability amplifies your vampiric abilities, changing them to be stronger like a unique morph only available in vampiric form. Instead of having the morphs of the ultimate be different bloodlines, introduce more bloodlines for vampires and lycanthropes that have different skill lines. Maybe you get scratched by a bloodfiend (the no-player way of vampirism) and it makes you more feral but you don't get a transformation... maybe something for light attack build lovers (like heavy attack builds but for light attacks). Maybe you can do a quest in Blackreach once you're already a vampire to become a Bloodknight or get bitten by a vampire lord (npc or player) in Western Skyrim. This would be lore friendly and can be extended into lycanthropes to give us werewolf behemoths, werebears, werebats, etc. However, it could be an issue with balancing, especially since werewolf and vampire are already eh.

DTStormfox · July 2023

Soarora wrote: »

The tutorial for vampirism is under Lamae Bal, you are a vampire of Lamae and thus you cannot be a Bloodknight or a Vampire Lord and vampire abilities/passives only being available during transformation has never been true. What is supported from a lore perspective is having additional spells and buffs accessible during transformation. I think a better suggestion would be that using a transformation vampire ability amplifies your vampiric abilities, changing them to be stronger like a unique morph only available in vampiric form. Instead of having the morphs of the ultimate be different bloodlines, introduce more bloodlines for vampires and lycanthropes that have different skill lines. Maybe you get scratched by a bloodfiend (the no-player way of vampirism) and it makes you more feral but you don't get a transformation... maybe something for light attack build lovers (like heavy attack builds but for light attacks). Maybe you can do a quest in Blackreach once you're already a vampire to become a Bloodknight or get bitten by a vampire lord (npc or player) in Western Skyrim. This would be lore friendly and can be extended into lycanthropes to give us werewolf behemoths, werebears, werebats, etc. However, it could be an issue with balancing, especially since werewolf and vampire are already eh.

Interesting, thanks for sharing.

I do think that a Werewolves and Vampires update with a revamp (no pun intended) of the ability lines into different types of vampires and lycanthropes, would be a great addition to the game. It would also open up the opportunity for ZOS to create new quests and storylines to explore. Since lycanthrope and vampirism are not that well balanced, they could take care of that with the update.

I do think that having both lycanthropes and vampirism requiring a transformation to use their respective ability lines would be more easily to balance because ZOS would be able to treat it as a separate 'class'. This would prevent the additive or multiplicative effect that, especially, vampirism currently has with other classes, which currently makes the balancing act more complicated. For example, being able to 'streak' away was a special ability for the Sorcerer class but with the introduction of the new Mist Form, this special ability is now void because every class now has access to it through vampirism.

bmnoble · July 2023

Not a fan of the transformations for vampire, would rather get back the old bat swarm ultimate's we had pre revamp.

I like not being limited to the vampire abilities and being able to use a mix of different ones it's a large factor in preferring having a vampire over a werewolf.

Since we are stuck with the transformations would be nice to at least have some way to prolong the transformation, especially with the animations for entering and exiting eating into the duration of the transformation.

Other than that would like the higher stage health regen restrictions dialled back just a touch, just enough to heal those health drops whenever you lose health from fall damage when travelling without having to actively stop and use a healing ability.

BlueRaven · July 2023

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Because unlike Werewolves Vampires are Vampires are 24/7, I would rather my Vampire not need to transform to use basic Vampire abilities while NPCs who don't even have the power to transform can use them at a whim.

^ That is the answer. ^

Ultimate aside, a player is always a vampire. You might as well ask why we can’t use werewolf abilities when not a werewolf.

Personally, I like the that the two feel distinct.

ZOS_Icy · July 2023

Greetings,

This thread has been moved to the Players Helping Players section, as it is better suited there.

Thank you for your understanding.