AzuraFan wrote: »

Carcamongus wrote: »

"For example: why is a person trans? 'The child is born that way. It's believed there is a biological basis, although it's not known which one,' says the medical doctor Alexandre Saadeh, who works with gender variability since 1990.
There is ongoing research about genetic chromossomal matters, intrauterine brain development and hormonal influences. Environmental factors, such as environmental influence, are also being studied, as they may contribute to the transgender manifestation, concludes the doctor."

"It's believed..." doesn't mean anything, especially when he goes on to say he doesn't know which biological basis. Also "ongoing research" and "may contribute." IOW, it's a hypothesis with no studies to support it yet.

Note that I'm not saying there isn't a biological basis. But for me to accept that there is, I'd need to see peer-reviewed studies with robust data that support the hypothesis.

I applaud this doctor for being honest. He's making it clear that they haven't found anything concrete yet. I'll give him a pass on the statement, "The child is born that way" because he goes on to say there's no evidence. As he said, "There is ongoing research..." Maybe something will eventually turn up. Maybe not.

Thanks for posting this. I'll keep my eye out for papers by this doctor. Maybe he'll be the one to have a breakthrough.

(And with that I'm out of this thread. I've said and read enough. I want to play ESO!!!!!!!!!!!)

I know there are fish species that can swap their sex depending on certain conditions. There are species that have both male and female organs. It is a known fact that the development of (mostly) two sexes was not there from the start and was ONE way evolution went. It is a fact that the human body as much as that of any multi-cell organism is highly complicated and complex that up to now only a small portion of its functioning is really thoroughly understood and I believe it will take further centuries to fully understand every aspect of it. It is scientifically proven that the hormons have a siginificant role during sex development of the human foetus.

But in the end the reasons do not matter for how we deal with other human beings that do not fall into the two traditional sexes for whatever reason they do not fall in one of those two. It does not matter as they deserve all the respect as anyone else and it is none of ours businesses as what gender they are for whatever reason they have. There is NOTHING to debate about. It is THEIR business and THEIRS alone. It is NOT our task to tell them as what sex they should feel comfortable with. Can't understand these discussions.

xiphactinus wrote: »

Respect is earnt.

So I can deny respect to you because in my eyes you have it not yet earned? Sorry, but this "logic" is a terrible one that would turn our societies into a very very bad place. Glad that the large majority of people doesn't adher to your "logic".

xiphactinus wrote: »

Respect is earnt.

You don't need to respect someone as a person to respect them as a human being. Plenty of people in vulnerable groups are absolute trashfires of people who I would never want to interact with. But that doesn't mean that I won't fight for their right to be who they are.

"Respect" can mean multiple things, sometimes even contradictory things. You have to know what type is being talked about at any given moment.

What rights and privileges are being denied?

I'll ask again. What rights and privileges are being denied?
Examples please so I can better understand.

What rights and laws that protect me do not apply to a members of the lgbt community?

When did poor personal choice equate to inequality?

That didn't answer my question.

When one is accustomed to special treatment, equality can seem like oppression.

Khajiit would like to thank the participants in this thread for showing their natures - it is always beneficial when folks announce themselves ahead of time.

As a middle aged gen-x straight white cis male american, I'm about the most un-oppressed individual in the world, but I have a heart, and compassion, and I try to understand. I've experienced loss and real pain and learned how hard life can be, and failure and so have learned a bit of humility, and so I would never think that my way was right for everyone - in fact I don't even think my way is right for me, often, and am always trying to improve. I have many friends who don't look like me, think like me, love like me, but I see them and I care for them and my life would be less without them.

Those of you making your way through this thread devaluing people you don't know, weaponizing "woke" (which has gone from a compliment to becoming many white-person's long-sought-after substitute for saying the 'n-word'), you are all the same.

You're afraid of what you do not understand, and instead of trying to learn, you listen to others who are just as ignorant and afraid as you are about how to feel and how to think. You're more than happy to do anything, say anything, think anything that you are told to, as long as the orders keep coming.

You have my pity. Living in fear under the heel of greedy, manipulative demagogues is no way to waste the limited existence we have.

16BitForestCat wrote: »

thejadefalcon wrote: »

And I'll just say it again. I'm part of the ESO playerbase. I've interacted with it a lot. This audience can be absolute garbage when it comes to LGBT+ issues. You'll have dimwits screeching about how evil LGBT+ are during a ZOS-sponsored Pride parade. Clearly, we are not dealing with the intellectual cream of the crop here. There's multiple posts here that are absolutely unfiltered transphobia that have more people saying "AwEsOmE" than people being actually human beings. Does that mean we should abandon all decency and just go full transphobe? No, to hell with that.

For that and everything else you've been posting: THANK YOU! Watching you tear down harmful walls has been beautiful.

(Wow, this post actually went through!)

Agreed on all counts!

Sarannah wrote: »

This thread should have been locked right away! Discussing reallife matters is against the forum rules, I once even got a warning for it.

We, the players, have no business judging this case(especially as we only get the one-sided story). We are not that important! This case is for the lawyers to solve. All of this is none of our business, and it is entitlement that some players think it is their business.

Don't judge a case or start a public outrage/angry-mob without having all the evidence. That is narrow-minded, the exact thing some in this thread claim to be against.

I am asking for Zenimax to tell me the other side of the story, that is the title of the thread. If a company that prides itself on being inclusive handles the case of a trans employee poorly I want them to explain themselves.

This is real-life stuff that refers to the company that owns the game and the forums we are communicating

If the claims are true they need to apologise to the former employee and give their HR people better training and likely their managers as well.

Basic accountability isn't an outrage mob.

Jarl_Ironheart wrote: »

Holy hell this thread has become just brain rot screeching. This needs to be shut down as there are so many aggressive comments on here.

This thread turned out to be exactly as constructive and productive as anyone should have predicted. A video game forum is just such a great place for this type of discussion.

While I don't think we're going to get much of ZOS' side of this unless later legal proceedings become public, my own assessment of the current situation is primarily driven by ESO itself.

How well is ZOS treating trans employees compared to its treatment of a trans character in ESO? If/when new info comes to light, that' the question I'll be asking.

With that in mind, it might prove instructive to review. If you haven't done the "Manor of Masques" quest in Summerset, I encourage you to do so. Spoilers follow.

...............

A trans character reveals their past identity to their sister. Note the quick acceptance of her transformation from little brother to little sister (bolded for emphasis, and spoilered for length)

............

That quick acceptance is reiterated afterwards. While this excerpt doesn't quite capture the full context, the quest makes it clear that Rinyde's unhappiness stems more from her plan for both to become mages and confusion over her sister's choice to be an actor than her change in gender.

.............

This quest also speaks in detail about the variety of experiences concerning transitioning in Tamriel.

..............

Is this a good portrayal?

Well, it was good enough to win ESO a GLAAD media award for outstanding video game.

"In Summerset, players undertake a prominent questline entitled Manor of Masques to reunite a transgender woman with her estranged twin sister. The story deals with the difficult topics of coming out and acceptance in a way that reflects the lived reality of many transgender people today."

https://glaad.org/releases/elder-scrolls-online-summerset-wins-inaugural-glaad-media-award-outstanding-video-game-30th/

.............

What's the point of rehashing a quest that came out in 2019?

It goes to show that ESO presents Tamriel as the sort of place where trans people are easily accepted. Where changing their name and gender is less notable than changing their profession. Where unmasking the Hopefuls to try to reveal Larydel's true identity is treated as unforgivable and worthy of banishment. Where transitioning to who she really is makes Alchemy happy and fulfilled, and those who care about her support her.

.............

Now, we live in the real world and not Tamriel. But there's something to be said for living up to the example set by the fantasy world we play in.

There's especially something to be said about the company that created it, if/when they've failed to live up to the example they created.

As I continue to follow this story as more information comes to light, I'll be judging ZOS against the example they themselves set in ESO.

I think the entire problem has two sides.
One, personal rights. Everyone has the right to be free and choose who he is (Note: this is the grammatically correct way to say this, not the politically correct way. It is called generic masculine.... I know, don't give me that look).
Personally, I think we should call the person, who infringes upon the rights of another what he is: a criminal.

And two, that there are laws that regulate labour and employment. Can ZOS's HR claim they handled this situation "by the book"? Probably not. I don't even think there is a "book for transitioning employees".

I also think that a person in transition between genders will make every aspect of their life about this transition. It is therefore an easy trap to fall into, to assume that every disagreement with one self is a disagreement with the transition itself. Delicate situations should be handled delicately.
That being said, I cannot imagine that transitioning between genders is easy. And a proactive approach by the employer is what I think should be the standard, not by the employee.

And one last thing: I was close to throwing up several times as I was reading this thread. Why can't people just be nice?

thejadefalcon wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

If Faren’s rights were confirmed to be violated, you would be hard pressed to find someone who didn’t support her.

How about you assume that they're telling the truth, then? That would be a good start to their defence. Of course, yes, they might be lying. But out of "trans person in America" vs "multibillion dollar corporation", who really needs your impassioned defence more?

And when this manager who's super irritated can't be bothered with not outing their employee and makes it all about how big of an inconvenience it is for them, instead of doing what a manager should do and support their employee... yeah, do I actually need to finish that sentence?

Never assume someone is telling the truth, only believe in proof. People and corporation lie, evidences dont.