So does Zenimax Studios have an explanation for this situation involving a Trans employee ?

Tandor · July 2023

I will never judge a situation on the basis of one side only, regardless of whatever my principled views might or might not be in a case like this.

What I do find staggering, however, is that the thread is still open and here to read. I can see no possible basis on which a discussion about the personal status and the company's handling of an individual member of staff remotely falls within the forum rules, which as we know the Mods are incredibly tight on enforcing, and yet the Mods seem completely indifferent to it.

Dr_Con · July 2023

I would advise caution for people who are engaging in politics of any sort on here (including identity politics) and to consider all sides of what happened carefully.

A majority of claims that are factually incorrect or toxic from both pro-Leona and casual posters are not being edited out. This seems intentional, these comments (including the topic's title) hide or distract from the truth of what really happened and will likely be used at some later point and remain on the internet and will not paint Leona or her situation in a good light. Instead, put yourself in Leona's shoes, or imagine someone with more commonplace issues if you cannot fathom it (such as pregnancy, surgical treatment, or discrimination in the workplace). Was the treatment fair? What could have been done better? Would you be in a position to judge what happened?

Here are some bullet points from Nefas's video:

Manager oversteps workplace Boundaries
PTO and FMLA
Manager oversteps legal boundaries
HR gets involved, Manager cracks down
Manager's boss is actually a good guy
Manager gaslighting?
HR is not good at HR
Bethesda Corporate steps in

These are direct quotes- there are a few more but they are harder to comment specifically on. As you can see, the "Manager" is the source of a lot of discussion and criticism.

This being the case... I, for one, would like to consider the position in middle-management and would like to ask people what the function of middle-management is since they have been highlighted as one of the biggest issues in all of this. Arm yourselves with the knowledge that hostile and ill-spirited feedback is always immediately discarded by the recipient.

So, in an effort to steer the topic in a more healthy direction, what do people think the role of middle-management (i.e. immediate supervisor) is and what should they have done when confronted with Leona's situation?

This is probably your one chance to reply with something that will actually be read and taken into consideration.

spartaxoxo · July 2023

fall0athboy wrote: »

One thing I found is that Maryland is a two-party consent recording state. A key thing to Maryland's law on this is that recording, even with consent of both parties, with tortious intent, is illegal.

It is absolutely an uphill battle to prove the recordings were done with the intent to sue, but if this gets to courts, that's how it'll get dragged out.

Yes. Absolutely. While we can argue how just Maryland's law is compared to other states, that's something that may cause some of the evidence to be deemed inadmissible.

fall0athboy · July 2023

One thing I don't understand:

Why is Bethesda Corporate getting involved? The employee worked at ZeniMax Online Studios, a subsidiary of ZeniMax Media.

Katheriah · July 2023

BlindingBright wrote: »

Katheriah wrote: »

BlindingBright wrote: »

To most this topic shouldn't be talked about anywhere.

Is that true though? And most of what? People on the forum? In ESO? The internet? The US? The world?

Yes, majority of people rather not have to read about or deal with trans people or their issues altogether. When issues like this come up on anything other than an LGBT site there are always detractors saying it doesn't belong "here"... Speaking from personal experince having seen plenty of vitriol and hate spewed across the internet, so take that with a grain of salt.

Most would prefer trans people just go away and not be visible, at all, anywhere... and likewise, most trans people rather the general public just leave them alone. There has been a rise in hate crimes committed in the last few years as the /real/ bigots are fired up more now than ever.

If you've been in the LGBT community, more than likely at some point you've felt silenced at some point... either by not being comfortable to be open around potentially bigoted people, or actively being silenced/argued with/yelled at about their.... existence and the validity of who they are.

That's why its important to NOT silence this topic, to not let bigotry win. Only by shining a light in spaces that would rather remain dark can we make progress. That is the reason I'd like to think ESO includes topics like bigotry in it's storylines, not to promote it- but to open discussion up around the topic and maybe, just maybe, make people think.

I am part of the community and the reason why I asked is because I take your remark about "most people" with a whole bucket of salt. I'd love to see some statistics on that including a source, otherways I respectfully say cowpoo.

I do admit there are people that want "trans people to go away" and they can be loud, I just refuse to believe without a source it's the majority. Because frankly, by far most people just don't care about "issues" they don't have to deal with in their own lives.

I also honestly believe it's damaging to the discussion to say things like it's the truth, while it's actually just your personal experiences mixed with emotions. I also believe it's damaging for the discussion to throw around words like bigot(ry), since people are also allowed to have their own opinions and freedom of religion is something we as a community also have to take into account.

Redirecting a discussion to a better suited place does not always have to be because of silencing.

I also don't start a discussion about my sexuality in the lunchroom of my office. There's a time and place for everything. This discussion on this forum will just end up as a toxic soup of hate and anger from both sides. What do you win with that?

SimonThesis · July 2023

fall0athboy wrote: »

One thing I don't understand:

Why is Bethesda Corporate getting involved? The employee worked at ZeniMax Online Studios, a subsidiary of ZeniMax Media.

They're all under the same umbrella, could be that bethesda corporate deals with more legal matters. So Microsoft bought Zenimax Media which owns Bethesda and Zenimax Online Studios.

fall0athboy · July 2023

SimonThesis wrote: »

fall0athboy wrote: »

One thing I don't understand:

Why is Bethesda Corporate getting involved? The employee worked at ZeniMax Online Studios, a subsidiary of ZeniMax Media.

They're all under the same umbrella, could be that bethesda corporate deals with more legal matters. So Microsoft bought Zenimax Media which owns Bethesda and Zenimax Online Studios.

Sure, but Bethesda and ZOS are two different companies.

I don't know, I don't understand corporate structure.

Tyrant_Tim · July 2023

Why do I have people messaging me that there are characters in this thread trying to push this weird narrative that anyone unwilling to crusade against a company they’ve always known to be inclusive over a one-sided and incomplete story makes them “transphobic” or filled with hatred?

None of any of my posts, or the vast majority of people posting here in opposition to being blindly lead, have had anything to do with the person going through a transition, and everything to with the very real possibility that there is a dishonest narrative being pushed, and it’s important to look at the situation from both angles.

From the sound of these interviews, Faren had full access to their account but refused to access it due to it bearing a resemblance to their “dead name” and willfully fell behind schedule.

Be honest with yourselves here.
There’s more to this story.

DrNukenstein · July 2023

Dr_Con wrote: »

So, in an effort to steer the topic in a more healthy direction, what do people think the role of middle-management (i.e. immediate supervisor) is and what should they have done when confronted with Stephanie's situation?

This is probably your one chance to reply with something that will actually be read and taken into consideration.

In clown college we learn that middle management is more of a "go to guy" roll as opposed to a real leadership roll. When someone goes to them with a sensitive problem, they should go to the senior clown above them or the lateral clowns in HR.

spartaxoxo · July 2023

Dr_Con wrote: »

So, in an effort to steer the topic in a more healthy direction, what do people think the role of middle-management (i.e. immediate supervisor) is and what should they have done when confronted with Stephanie's situation?

As a manager....

Get her name badge corrected.

Correct name badges aren't just a source of comfort for the employee, it's a security issue. This one is actually the one that makes me the most angry upon reading it because employees often have access to sensitive information. This information needs to be protected by ensuring everyone is who they say they are by having accurate name tags. That is a huge liability issue. Name tags need to be accurate. Period.

Don't disclose private medical information about an employee to other staff. Another liability.

As for the PTO, that would need to be scheduled in advance. And it's confirmation or denial is gonna be based on what's going on that company. I don't know more than that as I'm not in HR. I will say from what I know that medical procedures are generally approved, from my experience. I can't recall one being denied where I work but I don't know everyone's story when it comes to that.

If a technical issue is causing an employee to be locked out of their normal duties, you get technical support to resolve it. In the meantime, assign them alternative tasks that fits within their job description so they aren't getting paid to just sit around and do nothing. You don't expect them to complete work they are physically incapable of doing. You may need to assign someone else to help with their task to meet deadlines.

I_killed_Vivec · July 2023

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Why do I have people messaging me that there are characters in this thread trying to push this weird narrative that anyone unwilling to crusade against a company they’ve always known to be inclusive over a one-sided and incomplete story makes them “transphobic” or filled with hatred?

None of any of my posts, or the vast majority of people posting here in opposition to being blindly lead, have had anything to do with the person going through a transition, and everything to with the very real possibility that there is a dishonest narrative being pushed, and it’s important to look at the situation from both angles.

From the sound of these interviews, Faren had full access to their account but refused to access it due to it bearing a resemblance to their “dead name” and willfully fell behind schedule.

Be honest with yourselves here.
There’s more to this story.

Blindly lead (sic)... ""dead name""... be honest with yourself, you just can't help yourself can you?

Jaraal · July 2023

MachineGod wrote: »

I guarantee you will not touch their total worth while backed by Microsoft. Don't believe me? Look up who made 90%+ of the things you own and the nice places they have in their country and what happens to groups of people there. People turn a blind eye to things far worse than this one employee.

Granted, it's a much smaller company (only valued at around 100 billion USD), but social issues have cost Anheuser Busch around 27 billion dollars in revenue recently. To say that corporations are immune to image related devaluations would be oversimplifying matters.

Cazador · July 2023

I gotta admit, I'm surprised see this thread still up. I'm not particularly surprised that it's mostly been circular arguments for a bit now though. With how venomous this thread was even early on I really expected it to be short lived.

Tyrant_Tim · July 2023

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Why do I have people messaging me that there are characters in this thread trying to push this weird narrative that anyone unwilling to crusade against a company they’ve always known to be inclusive over a one-sided and incomplete story makes them “transphobic” or filled with hatred?

None of any of my posts, or the vast majority of people posting here in opposition to being blindly lead, have had anything to do with the person going through a transition, and everything to with the very real possibility that there is a dishonest narrative being pushed, and it’s important to look at the situation from both angles.

From the sound of these interviews, Faren had full access to their account but refused to access it due to it bearing a resemblance to their “dead name” and willfully fell behind schedule.

Be honest with yourselves here.
There’s more to this story.

Blindly lead (sic)... ""dead name""... be honest with yourself, you just can't help yourself can you?

Is it not blind? Where’s the direction? What’s the focus? Who are we looking at to pay for this alleged discrimination?

Regarding “dead name,” that’s not a term used around here, it’s “old name” or simply described as a name you no longer use.

Syldras · July 2023

RaikaNA wrote: »

Strange. I don't typically walk up to strangers on the street, and ask if they support this candidate or that candidate. I get to know the person first before I start engaging in sensitive subjects like religion or politics.

There are online forums, you know. Places to discuss topics with random strangers. Like this one, for example. I suggest reading (and possibly commenting on) topics that are interesting to you, while ignoring the others. Works fine for me.

spartaxoxo · July 2023

Here's the employees Reddit post about the topic.

https://www.reddit.com/r/lgbt/comments/14vjjkr/the_trans_experience_at_zenimax_bethesda/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2

Icy_Waffles · July 2023

Love it when people grab onto just a small piece of the puzzle when it aligns with their beliefs and they take it to the next level without knowing the full situation and story.

Tyrant_Tim · July 2023

Finally, let’s make this very clear.

If it’s determined in court that ZOS are held liable for neglect or malpractice in the workplace, you can expect the same level of defense for Faren not just from me, but from everyone.

Until then, let’s end the speculation and get back to the important things like buffing Templar.

nwilliams2107b16_ESO · July 2023

Don’t care, I just want to play a game

spartaxoxo · July 2023

Dr_Con wrote: »

. This seems intentional, these comments (including the topic's title) hide or distract from the truth of what really happened and will likely be used at some later point and remain on the internet and will not paint Leona or her situation in a good light.

Constructive dismissal is the same thing as firing in the eyes of the law. An employer cannot create an illegally toxic and hostile work environment that forces someone to quit a job they wanted to work and then claim the employee wasn't fired. Doing so is not different to firing the employee because the employee quit under duress and not as a matter of free choice.

The title simply relays Leona's version of events and nothing more. From her perspective, she was fired because she was forced out. We'd need more evidence from ZOS's side to determine if this firing was just or illegal, but the evidence she has is compelling. And very clearly lays out some issues.

She has laid out issues with a...

Hostile manager (including disclosing medical information to staff).

Blamed for technical supports failure at setting up her account. This impaired her ability to work because she couldn't access it despite trying a number of things.

Incorrect name tag

Manager made assumptions about her FMLA request

Given a package that paid for her gender reassignment surgery if she agreed to not sue.

Vhozek · July 2023

From what I've heard, it was justifiable.

tyrobia · July 2023

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Why do I have people messaging me that there are characters in this thread trying to push this weird narrative that anyone unwilling to crusade against a company they’ve always known to be inclusive over a one-sided and incomplete story makes them “transphobic” or filled with hatred?

None of any of my posts, or the vast majority of people posting here in opposition to being blindly lead, have had anything to do with the person going through a transition, and everything to with the very real possibility that there is a dishonest narrative being pushed, and it’s important to look at the situation from both angles.

From the sound of these interviews, Faren had full access to their account but refused to access it due to it bearing a resemblance to their “dead name” and willfully fell behind schedule.

Be honest with yourselves here.
There’s more to this story.

Blindly lead (sic)... ""dead name""... be honest with yourself, you just can't help yourself can you?

Is it not blind? Where’s the direction? What’s the focus? Who are we looking at to pay for this alleged discrimination?

Regarding “dead name,” that’s not a term used around here, it’s “old name” or simply described as a name you no longer use.

Intentionally dead naming and misgendering someone is explicitly an anti-trans slur and is hate speech. This is very basic stuff.

Tyrant_Tim · July 2023

Tyrobius wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Why do I have people messaging me that there are characters in this thread trying to push this weird narrative that anyone unwilling to crusade against a company they’ve always known to be inclusive over a one-sided and incomplete story makes them “transphobic” or filled with hatred?

None of any of my posts, or the vast majority of people posting here in opposition to being blindly lead, have had anything to do with the person going through a transition, and everything to with the very real possibility that there is a dishonest narrative being pushed, and it’s important to look at the situation from both angles.

From the sound of these interviews, Faren had full access to their account but refused to access it due to it bearing a resemblance to their “dead name” and willfully fell behind schedule.

Be honest with yourselves here.
There’s more to this story.

Blindly lead (sic)... ""dead name""... be honest with yourself, you just can't help yourself can you?

Is it not blind? Where’s the direction? What’s the focus? Who are we looking at to pay for this alleged discrimination?

Regarding “dead name,” that’s not a term used around here, it’s “old name” or simply described as a name you no longer use.

Intentionally dead naming and misgendering someone is explicitly an anti-trans slur and is hate speech. This is very basic stuff.

Who said it was intentional?
Very basic assumptions.

Stop beating a dead horse while you’re at it, you don’t know the whole story, and won’t, until it’s ran due process.

You’re taught as early as middle school law, that people are innocent until proven guilty. This isn’t Salem and you’re not the townsfolk.

sunsrest · July 2023

About closing the thread, it's not so simple, the old ways of treating a customer base were more heavy handed, like a straight up denial and reliance on legal means, but culture has changed and the companies have adjusted their messaging/signaling accordingly, the current approach is more conciliatory, something more like 'while we don't think we are wrong here, we are also treating this as a learning experience and we thank the user base for their input', so I think keeping the thread open for a while is in line with that approach, a symbolic gesture. These little decisions are fairly important for the well being of a brand.

freezinggrey · July 2023

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Tyrobius wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Why do I have people messaging me that there are characters in this thread trying to push this weird narrative that anyone unwilling to crusade against a company they’ve always known to be inclusive over a one-sided and incomplete story makes them “transphobic” or filled with hatred?

None of any of my posts, or the vast majority of people posting here in opposition to being blindly lead, have had anything to do with the person going through a transition, and everything to with the very real possibility that there is a dishonest narrative being pushed, and it’s important to look at the situation from both angles.

From the sound of these interviews, Faren had full access to their account but refused to access it due to it bearing a resemblance to their “dead name” and willfully fell behind schedule.

Be honest with yourselves here.
There’s more to this story.

Blindly lead (sic)... ""dead name""... be honest with yourself, you just can't help yourself can you?

Is it not blind? Where’s the direction? What’s the focus? Who are we looking at to pay for this alleged discrimination?

Regarding “dead name,” that’s not a term used around here, it’s “old name” or simply described as a name you no longer use.

Intentionally dead naming and misgendering someone is explicitly an anti-trans slur and is hate speech. This is very basic stuff.

Who said it was intentional?
Very basic assumptions.

Stop beating a dead horse while you’re at it, you don’t know the whole story, and won’t, until it’s ran due process.

You’re taught as early as middle school law, that people are innocent until proven guilty. This isn’t Salem and you’re not the townsfolk.

Continuously deadnaming someone, whether its intentional or not, is a form of harassment which is illegal in Maryland. Not only that, but retaliating against someone for filing a complaint is also illegal under that same law.

Though, I can't see how repeated deadnaming wouldn't be intentional. To take a page from your book; you're taught as early as elementary school that when someone tells you to stop, you're supposed to stop.

Tyrant_Tim · July 2023

freezinggrey wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Tyrobius wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Why do I have people messaging me that there are characters in this thread trying to push this weird narrative that anyone unwilling to crusade against a company they’ve always known to be inclusive over a one-sided and incomplete story makes them “transphobic” or filled with hatred?

None of any of my posts, or the vast majority of people posting here in opposition to being blindly lead, have had anything to do with the person going through a transition, and everything to with the very real possibility that there is a dishonest narrative being pushed, and it’s important to look at the situation from both angles.

From the sound of these interviews, Faren had full access to their account but refused to access it due to it bearing a resemblance to their “dead name” and willfully fell behind schedule.

Be honest with yourselves here.
There’s more to this story.

Blindly lead (sic)... ""dead name""... be honest with yourself, you just can't help yourself can you?

Is it not blind? Where’s the direction? What’s the focus? Who are we looking at to pay for this alleged discrimination?

Regarding “dead name,” that’s not a term used around here, it’s “old name” or simply described as a name you no longer use.

Intentionally dead naming and misgendering someone is explicitly an anti-trans slur and is hate speech. This is very basic stuff.

Who said it was intentional?
Very basic assumptions.

Stop beating a dead horse while you’re at it, you don’t know the whole story, and won’t, until it’s ran due process.

You’re taught as early as middle school law, that people are innocent until proven guilty. This isn’t Salem and you’re not the townsfolk.

Continuously deadnaming someone, whether its intentional or not, is a form of harassment which is illegal in Maryland. Not only that, but retaliating against someone for filing a complaint is also illegal under that same law.

Though, I can't see how repeated deadnaming wouldn't be intentional. To take a page from your book; you're taught as early as elementary school that when someone tells you to stop, you're supposed to stop.

How do you even know they were being “dead named,” word of mouth?

You read pages on the internet.

Until it’s processed as conclusive evidence, it’s hearsay.

edward_frigidhands · July 2023

These forums are not a place to discuss this matter.

tyrobia · July 2023

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

freezinggrey wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Tyrobius wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Why do I have people messaging me that there are characters in this thread trying to push this weird narrative that anyone unwilling to crusade against a company they’ve always known to be inclusive over a one-sided and incomplete story makes them “transphobic” or filled with hatred?

None of any of my posts, or the vast majority of people posting here in opposition to being blindly lead, have had anything to do with the person going through a transition, and everything to with the very real possibility that there is a dishonest narrative being pushed, and it’s important to look at the situation from both angles.

From the sound of these interviews, Faren had full access to their account but refused to access it due to it bearing a resemblance to their “dead name” and willfully fell behind schedule.

Be honest with yourselves here.
There’s more to this story.

Blindly lead (sic)... ""dead name""... be honest with yourself, you just can't help yourself can you?

Is it not blind? Where’s the direction? What’s the focus? Who are we looking at to pay for this alleged discrimination?

Regarding “dead name,” that’s not a term used around here, it’s “old name” or simply described as a name you no longer use.

Intentionally dead naming and misgendering someone is explicitly an anti-trans slur and is hate speech. This is very basic stuff.

Who said it was intentional?
Very basic assumptions.

Stop beating a dead horse while you’re at it, you don’t know the whole story, and won’t, until it’s ran due process.

You’re taught as early as middle school law, that people are innocent until proven guilty. This isn’t Salem and you’re not the townsfolk.

Continuously deadnaming someone, whether its intentional or not, is a form of harassment which is illegal in Maryland. Not only that, but retaliating against someone for filing a complaint is also illegal under that same law.

Though, I can't see how repeated deadnaming wouldn't be intentional. To take a page from your book; you're taught as early as elementary school that when someone tells you to stop, you're supposed to stop.

How do you even know they were being “dead named,” word of mouth? Get over yourself.

You read pages on the internet.

Until it’s processed as conclusive evidence, it’s hearsay.

Look, you can deny the basic facts of the situation, but this was all detailed in Leona's 4 hour long video on the issue, as well as Nefas' and Stephanie Sterling's videos. No one cares that you think a court of law must be actively judging a matter before it can be talked about.

Sempronius_Varus · July 2023

Who the hell cares why someone got fired or let go? I mean everything is is a work at will world. You can be shown the door at any time for any reason. You should always be prepared to take your box of crap and move on.

That being said all this current 'woke' crap is the cause of their own distress. No one care what you do in your own bedroom. But there is absolutely ZERO needs to espouse your behaviors in public to others. No one needs or wants 'convincing' or cares about your predilections. If you can't live with your own choices then YOU need mental help.

Syldras · July 2023

Sempronius_Varus wrote: »

That being said all this current 'woke' crap is the cause of their own distress. No one care what you do in your own bedroom. But there is absolutely ZERO needs to espouse your behaviors in public to others.

So what did this person do in the bedroom? I don't think she has given any information about that.