So does Zenimax Studios have an explanation for this situation involving a Trans employee ?

Seraphayel · July 2023

Tyrobius wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

BlindingBright wrote: »

"a person who is obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, especially one who is prejudiced against or antagonistic toward a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group."

So basically, if you're not in my group (whichever group that may be), and you don't agree with my group, then you're a bigot.

As long as more than one group exists, then at least two groups will be bigots.

And who gets to decide which group is "unreasonably attached to a belief"? Bigot group A, or Bigot group B? Or perhaps Bigot group C?

To quote the words of Stephen Stills: "Nobody's right, if everybody's wrong."

Transgender people's right to exist is not a matter of opinion and is not up for debate.

And yet this topic doesn’t belong here. That doesn’t take away from your statement, it just makes it clear that this is the wrong place to discuss this.

BlindingBright · July 2023

I'm sorry you assume people are bigots based on their beliefs. Everyone has the own opinions, values, standards, life style, and beliefs. Live and let live.[/quote]

Jaraal wrote: »

BlindingBright wrote: »

"a person who is obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, especially one who is prejudiced against or antagonistic toward a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group."

So basically, if you're not in my group (whichever group that may be), and you don't agree with my group, then you're a bigot.

As long as more than one group exists, then at least two groups will be bigots.

And who gets to decide which group is "unreasonably attached to a belief"? Bigot group A, or Bigot group B? Or perhaps Bigot group C?

To quote the words of Stephen Stills: "Nobody's right, if everybody's wrong."

No, as I've stated trying to silence a group over this issue is bigoted behavior and that some in this forum post simply want to shut it down as they don't agree with the subject matter.

I have no issue with people expressing their opinions or having an open debate. Trying to shut down communication though is in many ways is an act by some people to try and silence a minority group and their issues, is- bigoted. That is the issue- not that people have a counter opinion.

It's okay, the term doesn't get used much- but needs to make a come back and used appropriately where needed to illustrate the issue. "prejudiced against or antagonistic toward a person or people" that is a key part of bigotry. Me trying to keep communications open so we as a society can maybe... move past it and rise above? that is not bigoted behavior... that's trying to heal.

By pointing out such behavior I'm trying to open some peoples eyes.

spartaxoxo · July 2023

Someone is a bigot based off their actions and beliefs. What else would it go by?

Katheriah · July 2023

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, would it hurt you to ignore the thread, and let others debate if they wish? Why is it necessary to close the thread? Why do you need to impose your ideas of what the forum should contain on others?

I honestly think nothing good will come out of having the discussion here. We're all playing the same game trying to escape reality, but please realise that this game is filled with people from all over the world with all kinds of faiths and personal opinions and/or experiences. This is a subject that triggers emotions on all sides, but nobody is going to 'win' someone over from one camp to another.

There's people sharing very personal information, people trolling, people who respond from personal experiences or their faith. This is a toxic soup that will end in bans and hurt people.

And ZOS is (probably) reading all of this and intentionally ignoring everything.

bantamguar · July 2023

Trying to frame people as bigots for simply stating that this is not the appropriate place for discussion alone shows that there was never going to be any debate made in good faith.

spartaxoxo · July 2023

Katheriah wrote: »

And ZOS is (probably) reading all of this and intentionally ignoring everything.

Yes. And they shouldn't have. They should have moderated it for tone, hate speech, etc like any other discussion. I agree this isn't the best place for discussion. So, I personally wish they had closed it.

But, I support the employee 100% if things played out as alleged, because using your PTO for medical care, having a correct name badge, and being physically prevented from working due to the technical teams incompetence and then being blamed for their failure are all blatantly unfair things. And I would support ANY worker that had to go through that.

WreckfulAbandon · July 2023

Reasonable people try to gather as much information as possible about a situation before coming to a conclusion. Expecting a crusade before the facts are all out is basically just preselecting for the most blindly adherent zealots to join. This comment is directed equally at both "sides." Absurd as it is that there are sides being taken without the facts being known, considered, and roundly debated if applicable.

In the US, where ZOS is headquartered and the incident took place, guilt and liability are determined in courts of law. It's not perfect obviously but the standard of evidence there is still higher than the knee jerk, emotive postings of keyboard warriors. Which is all posters of both "sides" are here as we have only heard one side and the issue is already being overloaded with everyone's baggage.

Apologies to OP if you were actually trying to have a discussion, but in my view the current title is assumptive, inflammatory, demanding, and possibly misleading (hindsight will tell us eventually).

BlindingBright · July 2023

Seraphayel wrote: »

BlindingBright wrote: »

wilykcat wrote: »

BlindingBright wrote: »

wilykcat wrote: »

BlindingBright wrote: »

It's pretty common for companies to project an air of "Acceptance" and "Support" of LGBT workers- but then to just completely muck up ACTUALLY being an ally.

No amount of trainings or seminars will help... if anything those trainings & seminars teach the true bigots how to keep being bigots AND keep their job. And with the way things are now, the company can 100% have a policy, and even "programs" designed for LGBT employees... but that doesn't stop people in the workforce from being bigots... nor is it a reason to burn ESO to the ground.

The term bigots needs to be used more. A lot of them that have felt more empowered lately than I've ever seen. Going through transition on the job is a royal PITA- having co-workers act-a-fool and producing bigoted behavior? sad reality.... No cooperate policy can protect an employee from a bigoted manager, they'll always find a loop-hole to mess with a trans employee if they want to.

Normally I am against releasing of "private" work meetings/emails/info, but in the case of exposing bigotry and mistreatment- is 100% justified. Many people in that situation don't have many other options, and finding/affording proper council can be difficult.... Most lawyers would never want to take this sort of case on, and even LGBT law centers do practically NOTHING to help people in these situations, unless... it becomes newsworthy, which it is now. These sorts of issues happen all the time and never see the light of day.

I wish people would just chill out on trans peeps and the rest of the rainbow- life has been pretty intense lately for a lot of folk. You don't need to know their struggles- just treat people with respect, and give them the space they need to deal with their medical stuff.

wilykcat wrote: »

This discussion should be closed as it is causing lots of heated arguments on a very sensitive/controversial/personal topic.

It is upsetting everyone on both sides. I don't like seeing discussions like this as it ruins the fun and enjoyment of the forums and the games.

People here are upset, threatening to report and ban others, lots of misunderstandings, lots of personal information being shared, and trolling/baiting/attention seeking.

@ZOS_Icy @ZOS_Kevin

Please close this. It will do everyone a favor.

Let the bigots be upset... and may as well start silencing users like they have tried to silence their employee? By ignoring this issue it only favors those that are protected from such discrimination and further illustrates a deeper problem. IMHO you're a bigot(not a slur, or derogatory term) for wanting to silence this issue. Don't want to read this thread, don't engage- no reason to try and silence others.

I'm not a bigot
I'm not taking sides. How dare you insult me, my opinions, and beliefs.

"a person who is obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, especially one who is prejudiced against or antagonistic toward a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group." by definition trying to shut down discussion about persecution of a group of people based on the fact you don't like it? I mean.... okay.

Again, re-emphasize, bigot is not a slur term, and in this case(and with a lot of replies in this thread) people are displaying bigoted behavior whether they label it as such or not. This is not a direct response to your post, nor was I trying to call the kettle black.

IStop calling me that word. Like I said I'm not taking sides on this issue. Why can't you understand my post. This discussion is annoying. I have no purpose here in this discussion anymore.

I'm sorry you assume people are bigots based on their beliefs. Everyone has the own opinions, values, standards, life style, and beliefs. Live and let live.

To re-iterate, I'm not calling you a bigot. I am saying that trying to silence the discussion on this issue is bigoted behavior. There is a difference.

But it‘s not. It‘s an official gaming forum. This issue doesn’t belong here and is of no interest here. Saying that is neither ignorant, nor is it transphobic or makes me a bigot. I honestly don’t care about this at all, all I’m caring about in this forum is ESO. That’s the reason why this topic doesn’t belong here and that‘s the only reason that matters.

You're right. This issue should just be ignored so you can go back to playing your game in peace and pretend a developer for the game wasn't mis-treated(or for some, actually love the fact ZoS mistreated them). I'm sorry you and many others on these forums(And on ZoS's cooperate structure) are tone deaf and incapable of being compassionate and rather a heated issue directly with the game be ignored because you don't agree with it.

And IT IS BIGOTRY to actively try and silence a group/person because you don't agree with them. This goes to everyone/anyone that wants to shut this down. This whole issue is ABOUT BIGOTRY, period.

Silencing the issue because you and some others don't like it, IS BIGOTRY. Advocating for this persons struggle and ZoS missteps to be ignored/deleted IS BIGOTRY. It's not as overt as telling a person to KYS, or slinging slurs, but it's still BIGOTRY.

fall0athboy · July 2023

All they want is the rules of the forum enforced on this topic, in the same way that it would be enforced on any other real-life topic.

spartaxoxo · July 2023

fall0athboy wrote: »

All they want is the rules of the forum enforced on this topic, in the same way that it would be enforced on any other real-life topic.

While I'm sure some people want it closed for bigoted reasons and the rules just happen to align with them, wanting it closed in and of itself doesn't make someone a bigot. If someone wants the voice silenced in general (as in the news/yt shouldn't talk about it, the employee should not be able to gather evidence, etc) then yes, that's bigoted. But, you can care about this topic and not think every platform out there is an appropriate place for it.

I support the employee if things happened as alleged because transphobia has no place in the workplace. If it didn't and ZOS's version of events disproves it, I'm open to that too.

I don't think this is an appropriate place because it's not an informative place. And the end result is a lot of comments coming from a place that isn't interested in the information but rather pushing politics.

fall0athboy · July 2023

spartaxoxo wrote: »

fall0athboy wrote: »

All they want is the rules of the forum enforced on this topic, in the same way that it would be enforced on any other real-life topic.

While I'm sure some people want it closed for bigoted reasons and the rules just happen to align with them, wanting it closed in and of itself doesn't make someone a bigot. If someone wants the voice silenced in general (as in the news/yt shouldn't talk about it, the employee should not be able to gather evidence, etc) then yes, that's bigoted. But, you can care about this topic and not think every platform out there is an appropriate place for it.

Yeah, I agree with your take on this; I just couldn't word it as well as you did, thank you.

BlindingBright · July 2023

spartaxoxo wrote: »

fall0athboy wrote: »

All they want is the rules of the forum enforced on this topic, in the same way that it would be enforced on any other real-life topic.

While I'm sure some people want it closed for bigoted reasons and the rules just happen to align with them, wanting it closed in and of itself doesn't make someone a bigot. If someone wants the voice silenced in general (as in the news/yt shouldn't talk about it, the employee should not be able to gather evidence, etc) then yes, that's bigoted. But, you can care about this topic and not think every platform out there is an appropriate place for it.

The issue is, this thread and the video/subject matter IS directly related to the game. The reasons for this thread to be removed/silenced really don't apply. It's asking a question about the developers directly, and how their employees are treated.

Trying to silence the discussion because at the core the employees status and issues faced is sadly a "pollical topic" shouldn't be an issue. It's easy for bigotry to hide behind "rules"

Soraka · July 2023

I'm pretty surprised this has stayed open this long. Kinda disappointed that it's turned into meltdown central and kinda proves zos right that we need to be so heavily moderated and can't be chill and look at information and make our own opinions.

spartaxoxo · July 2023

BlindingBright wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

fall0athboy wrote: »

All they want is the rules of the forum enforced on this topic, in the same way that it would be enforced on any other real-life topic.

While I'm sure some people want it closed for bigoted reasons and the rules just happen to align with them, wanting it closed in and of itself doesn't make someone a bigot. If someone wants the voice silenced in general (as in the news/yt shouldn't talk about it, the employee should not be able to gather evidence, etc) then yes, that's bigoted. But, you can care about this topic and not think every platform out there is an appropriate place for it.

The issue is, this thread and the video/subject matter IS directly related to the game. The reasons for this thread to be removed/silenced really don't apply. It's asking a question about the developers directly, and how their employees are treated.

Trying to silence the discussion because at the core the employees status and issues faced is sadly a "pollical topic" shouldn't be an issue. It's easy for bigotry to hide behind "rules"

I understand that. And I wouldn't normally be against it being up for that reason. But, they have apparently decided this type of discussion shouldn't be moderated according to the normal rules either. There's a lot of blatantly venomous things being left up. And the topic has become a place where the normal rules of calmly and respectfully debating things on the facts seem to have been thrown out the window.

If that's what they feel is needed to keep the topic open on this forum, then I don't think this is an appropriate topic for the forum at all.

TybaltKaine · July 2023

The developers don't make decisions on hiring and firing, they cannot do anything about this.

This isn't hard to understand. Digging in and calling everyone a bigot doesn't help either. And saying someone is exhibiting bigoted behavior is tantamount to calling them a bigot.

This discussion matters, but this isn't the place for it, that is all we are trying to say

Ask them directly on Twitter/Threads/et.al That's going to generate FAR more exposure than a forum post that requires an obstacle course of hurdles to jump through just to post.

Demanding equity is fine, but screaming into the void is not an effective strategy, and to be clear, posting here and demanding communication from the dev team is the same as screaming into the void.

We all want this to be a place of inclusion and joy, but creating topics like this only serve to stir the pot and create vitriol, because people are entrenched into their opinions and text on a screen will not change that.

I will disengage from this discussion I didn't want to wade into in the first place, but felt I had to in order to calm people. I hope that you can get some traction on this, all of you that demand it, but I sincerely doubt that it will happen here, and fostering resentment isn't going to help anyone at all.

I get the rush from arguing, and wanting to be right, but choosing your battlefield is as important as choosing your battles.

RaikaNA · July 2023

Xandreia_ wrote: »

I'm always the first to call zos out on bs, but why should they have an explanation for this? We have only heard 1 side of this and that could/was most likely taken way out of context for the most part. We didn't see their deadlines/work prior to being fired. We don't know if their work suffered or what it was like working for them. They also illegally recorded conversations in the work place then posted them online. If anything zos could sue them for privacy violations. For a company like this, deadline's and punctuality matters along with quality of work, if any of these 3 deteriorate they were 100% have the right to dismis that employee. Also, the whole dead name thing. They changed their pic but they didn't say anywhere that they officially changed their name on company records. Unless you change a name on legal records its not a name change 🤷‍♀️. This isn't the place for this. If zos wish to speak out on this and give their side then great. But they won't. Privacy and data protection would be completely ruined and they would open themselves to a full on legal nightmare.

Narvuntien wrote: »

RaikaNA wrote: »

Narvuntien wrote: »

Saint-Ange wrote: »

what are the odds of getting perma banned from both the forum and the game for posting this?
I'd say 95-100 %, so why OP?
Do you even know that person?
Is it worth it?
You knew what was going to happen, right?

I don't see why that would happen. I am not posting threats, simply asking for an explanation.

Fighting for human rights is always worth it, expecting accountability from the companies and governments that are part of your life is important.

I don't want to see you banned, but according to ZOS... and they're quite touchy about this... what you're doing may be considered "Baiting". You're opening up a discussion that is highly political that may cause heated up arguments.

This isn't a human rights advocacy forum. This forum is about ESO - Elder Scrolls Online. It's a gaming community.

Also, ZOS doesn't owe you an explanation over an article that you read on some site, or finish watching a video from youtube that came from a disgruntled former employee. Do you honestly believe that you were going to get an official response? Maybe they're not allowed to talk about it due to legal reasons? I honestly don't care. What I care about is reading the patch notes and hoping that the developers fix the game.

Why did you bother to make a post then? if it's not something you care about move on.

Okay, I am making the title of the thread to be more specific to prevent any further "baiting" hopefully you'll be more comfortable not knowing that the company and studio that makes the game feels okay firing employees because one of their managers appears to be transphobic and gave them a bad internal review.

The evidence provided is pretty damming, its 4 hours!

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

BlindingBright wrote: »

wilykcat wrote: »

BlindingBright wrote: »

wilykcat wrote: »

BlindingBright wrote: »

It's pretty common for companies to project an air of "Acceptance" and "Support" of LGBT workers- but then to just completely muck up ACTUALLY being an ally.

No amount of trainings or seminars will help... if anything those trainings & seminars teach the true bigots how to keep being bigots AND keep their job. And with the way things are now, the company can 100% have a policy, and even "programs" designed for LGBT employees... but that doesn't stop people in the workforce from being bigots... nor is it a reason to burn ESO to the ground.

The term bigots needs to be used more. A lot of them that have felt more empowered lately than I've ever seen. Going through transition on the job is a royal PITA- having co-workers act-a-fool and producing bigoted behavior? sad reality.... No cooperate policy can protect an employee from a bigoted manager, they'll always find a loop-hole to mess with a trans employee if they want to.

Normally I am against releasing of "private" work meetings/emails/info, but in the case of exposing bigotry and mistreatment- is 100% justified. Many people in that situation don't have many other options, and finding/affording proper council can be difficult.... Most lawyers would never want to take this sort of case on, and even LGBT law centers do practically NOTHING to help people in these situations, unless... it becomes newsworthy, which it is now. These sorts of issues happen all the time and never see the light of day.

I wish people would just chill out on trans peeps and the rest of the rainbow- life has been pretty intense lately for a lot of folk. You don't need to know their struggles- just treat people with respect, and give them the space they need to deal with their medical stuff.

wilykcat wrote: »

This discussion should be closed as it is causing lots of heated arguments on a very sensitive/controversial/personal topic.

It is upsetting everyone on both sides. I don't like seeing discussions like this as it ruins the fun and enjoyment of the forums and the games.

People here are upset, threatening to report and ban others, lots of misunderstandings, lots of personal information being shared, and trolling/baiting/attention seeking.

@ZOS_Icy @ZOS_Kevin

Please close this. It will do everyone a favor.

Let the bigots be upset... and may as well start silencing users like they have tried to silence their employee? By ignoring this issue it only favors those that are protected from such discrimination and further illustrates a deeper problem. IMHO you're a bigot(not a slur, or derogatory term) for wanting to silence this issue. Don't want to read this thread, don't engage- no reason to try and silence others.

I'm not a bigot
I'm not taking sides. How dare you insult me, my opinions, and beliefs.

"a person who is obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, especially one who is prejudiced against or antagonistic toward a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group." by definition trying to shut down discussion about persecution of a group of people based on the fact you don't like it? I mean.... okay.

Again, re-emphasize, bigot is not a slur term, and in this case(and with a lot of replies in this thread) people are displaying bigoted behavior whether they label it as such or not. This is not a direct response to your post, nor was I trying to call the kettle black.

IStop calling me that word. Like I said I'm not taking sides on this issue. Why can't you understand my post. This discussion is annoying. I have no purpose here in this discussion anymore.

I'm sorry you assume people are bigots based on their beliefs. Everyone has the own opinions, values, standards, life style, and beliefs. Live and let live.

To re-iterate, I'm not calling you a bigot. I am saying that trying to silence the discussion on this issue is bigoted behavior. There is a difference.

But it‘s not. It‘s an official gaming forum. This issue doesn’t belong here and is of no interest here. Saying that is neither ignorant, nor is it transphobic or makes me a bigot. I honestly don’t care about this at all, all I’m caring about in this forum is ESO. That’s the reason why this topic doesn’t belong here and that‘s the only reason that matters.

Just out of curiosity, would it hurt you to ignore the thread, and let others debate if they wish? Why is it necessary to close the thread? Why do you need to impose your ideas of what the forum should contain on others?

ZoS could have closed this down on the first page. Doesn't the fact that they haven't indicate that some might feel that the discussion does belong here?

What you're wanting to debate has nothing to do with ESO.. it's purely political. Do you understand that this is not socially appropriate? 2 number 1 rules is to never engage in politics or religion because it's always going to end up badly.

spartaxoxo · July 2023

TybaltKaine wrote: »

And saying someone is exhibiting bigoted behavior is tantamount to calling them a bigot.

No, it's not. A person can do a bigoted thing or even have a bigoted belief without even realizing it, and not be an overall bigot. For example, they might believe a stereotype about a nation that isn't true. But, overall be supportive of that nation and its people.

Edited: I don't agree wanting this thread closed is bigoted. But, that needs to be said because people have difficulty learning and growing from their mistakes if they aren't open to correction.

SimonThesis · July 2023

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I understand that. And I wouldn't normally be against it being up for that reason. But, they have apparently decided this type of discussion shouldn't be moderated according to the normal rules either. There's a lot of blatantly venomous things being left up. And the topic has become a place where the normal rules of calmly and respectfully debating things on the facts seem to have been thrown out the window.

If that's what they feel is needed to keep the topic open on this forum, then I don't think this is an appropriate topic for the forum at all.

I agree, but I do believe this is an appropriate discussion to have we are paying this company and we expect them to treat their employees right no matter how different they are. Several ESO stream team members have commented on this and its being picked up by gaming articles. That being said everyone here needs to act with respect and kindness. It is very easy to believe the employee, especially seeing the hate filled comments here and the audio tapes of a manager making transphobic comments.

I do agree they have decided to be hands off as it is a sensitive topic, but blatantly venomous comments on both sides need to be taken down. Everyone should treat everyone with kindness no matter how different they are, hate against a minority should never be tolerated. I am grateful they are allowing this discussion to happen, standing up for a discriminated employee that worked on this game is forum business.

BlindingBright · July 2023

spartaxoxo wrote: »

BlindingBright wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

fall0athboy wrote: »

All they want is the rules of the forum enforced on this topic, in the same way that it would be enforced on any other real-life topic.

While I'm sure some people want it closed for bigoted reasons and the rules just happen to align with them, wanting it closed in and of itself doesn't make someone a bigot. If someone wants the voice silenced in general (as in the news/yt shouldn't talk about it, the employee should not be able to gather evidence, etc) then yes, that's bigoted. But, you can care about this topic and not think every platform out there is an appropriate place for it.

The issue is, this thread and the video/subject matter IS directly related to the game. The reasons for this thread to be removed/silenced really don't apply. It's asking a question about the developers directly, and how their employees are treated.

Trying to silence the discussion because at the core the employees status and issues faced is sadly a "pollical topic" shouldn't be an issue. It's easy for bigotry to hide behind "rules"

I understand that. And I wouldn't normally be against it being up for that reason. But, they have apparently decided this type of discussion shouldn't be moderated according to the normal rules either. There's a lot of blatantly venomous things being left up. And the topic has become a place where the normal rules of calmly and respectfully debating things on the facts seem to have been thrown out the window.

If that's what they feel is needed to keep the topic open on this forum, then I don't think this is an appropriate topic for the forum at all.

To most this topic shouldn't be talked about anywhere. It is political, at the core of the issue is... bigotry and the bigoted mistreatment of a human being that worked to make this game, that this forum is for.

Though if anything I am glad that at least a few people are starting to understand and an actual discussion on bigotry, what it is, is not, is happening... even if it only opens the eyes of one person, it's wroth the discussion. Talking issues out and coming to a better understanding is how things heal and get worked out.

Syldras · July 2023

RaikaNA wrote: »

What you're wanting to debate has nothing to do with ESO.. it's purely political. Do you understand that this is not socially appropriate? 2 number 1 rules is to never engage in politics or religion because it's always going to end up badly.

Weird. I often discussed politics with total strangers. It's interesting, you actually learn about people, about different views, cultural, religious, ethical and philosophical backgrounds, you might even get new insights and question your beliefs and prejudices and get a better picture of things (or maybe you agree to disagree). Put shortly: You grow as a person. I'd say: People should discuss more. The only problem is that many people seem to be incapable of being polite, considerate and open-minded nowadays. A lack of character. But that won't change by avoiding discussions altogether.

Katheriah · July 2023

BlindingBright wrote: »

To most this topic shouldn't be talked about anywhere.

Is that true though? And most of what? People on the forum? In ESO? The internet? The US? The world?

VaranisArano · July 2023

Seeing as how the ESO forums are my first (and frequently only) source of news when it pertains to Zenimax, I appreciate finding out about this from the forums. I especially appreciate those who've posted sources and articles where I can do further reading.

TybaltKaine · July 2023

spartaxoxo wrote: »

No, it's not. A person can do a bigoted thing or even have a bigoted belief without even realizing it, and not be an overall bigot. For example, they might believe a stereotype about a nation that isn't true. But, overall be supportive of that nation and its people.

Edited: I don't agree wanting this thread closed is bigoted. But, that needs to be said because people have difficulty learning and growing from their mistakes if they aren't open to correction.

That's fair but expecting people to make that distinction in the moment is difficult. Emotion tends to cloud judgement, especially when one feels insulted or attacked.

AzuraFan · July 2023

I think the "this is a really, really important topic and if you don't want it here you're a bigot and you want to erase trans people" team and the "if you want this here, you're woke and need to shut up you entitled so-and-so" team should take it to Cyrodiil and go at each other.

(Where the heck are the mods?)

Katheriah · July 2023

TybaltKaine wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

No, it's not. A person can do a bigoted thing or even have a bigoted belief without even realizing it, and not be an overall bigot. For example, they might believe a stereotype about a nation that isn't true. But, overall be supportive of that nation and its people.

Edited: I don't agree wanting this thread closed is bigoted. But, that needs to be said because people have difficulty learning and growing from their mistakes if they aren't open to correction.

That's fair but expecting people to make that distinction in the moment is difficult. Emotion tends to cloud judgement, especially when one feels insulted or attacked.

And looking at the subject, I think we all know people WILL take things personal and feel insulted or attacked.

spartaxoxo · July 2023

SimonThesis wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I understand that. And I wouldn't normally be against it being up for that reason. But, they have apparently decided this type of discussion shouldn't be moderated according to the normal rules either. There's a lot of blatantly venomous things being left up. And the topic has become a place where the normal rules of calmly and respectfully debating things on the facts seem to have been thrown out the window.

If that's what they feel is needed to keep the topic open on this forum, then I don't think this is an appropriate topic for the forum at all.

I agree, but I do believe this is an appropriate discussion to have we are paying this company and we expect them to treat their employees right no matter how different they are. Several ESO stream team members have commented on this and its being picked up by gaming articles. That being said everyone here needs to act with respect and kindness. It is very easy to believe the employee, especially seeing the hate filled comments here and the audio tapes of a manager making transphobic comments.

I do agree they have decided to be hands off as it is a sensitive topic, but blatantly venomous comments on both sides need to be taken down. Everyone should treat everyone with kindness no matter how different they are, hate against a minority should never be tolerated. I am grateful they are allowing this discussion to happen, standing up for a discriminated employee is forum business.

I would be if they moderated like normal.

Bashing, hate speech, etc shouldn't be allowed. Both the employee and each other.

I'm not even saying that you have to agree with the employee but there's a big difference between

"The employee is wrong about the name tag because that software causes a lot of issues with renaming people. The name changes don't stick and it can take months to resolve. "

And she just wants special treatment, she's entitled, or blatant transphobia.

The latter is bashing and transphobia is hate speech and wouldn't be allowed on any other topic. I'm not really interested in a discussion here because the employee is not being given the same respect that is required when discussing other things about ZOS as a company or other ZOS employees. That's just a huge bummer.

Any topic that can't be moderated doesn't need to be here. IMO

RaikaNA · July 2023

Syldras wrote: »

RaikaNA wrote: »

What you're wanting to debate has nothing to do with ESO.. it's purely political. Do you understand that this is not socially appropriate? 2 number 1 rules is to never engage in politics or religion because it's always going to end up badly.

Weird. I often discussed politics with total strangers. It's interesting, you actually learn about people, about different views, cultural, religious, ethical and philosophical backgrounds, you might even get new insights and question your beliefs and prejudices and get a better picture of things (or maybe you agree to disagree). Put shortly: You grow as a person. I'd say: People should discuss more. The only problem is that many people seem to be incapable of being polite, considerate and open-minded nowadays. A lack of character. But that won't change by avoiding discussions altogether.

Strange. I don't typically walk up to strangers on the street, and ask if they support this candidate or that candidate. I get to know the person first before I start engaging in sensitive subjects like religion or politics.

BlindingBright · July 2023

Katheriah wrote: »

BlindingBright wrote: »

To most this topic shouldn't be talked about anywhere.

Is that true though? And most of what? People on the forum? In ESO? The internet? The US? The world?

Yes, majority of people rather not have to read about or deal with trans people or their issues altogether. When issues like this come up on anything other than an LGBT site there are always detractors saying it doesn't belong "here"... Speaking from personal experince having seen plenty of vitriol and hate spewed across the internet, so take that with a grain of salt.

Most would prefer trans people just go away and not be visible, at all, anywhere... and likewise, most trans people rather the general public just leave them alone. There has been a rise in hate crimes committed in the last few years as the /real/ bigots are fired up more now than ever.

If you've been in the LGBT community, more than likely at some point you've felt silenced at some point... either by not being comfortable to be open around potentially bigoted people, or actively being silenced/argued with/yelled at about their.... existence and the validity of who they are.

That's why its important to NOT silence this topic, to not let bigotry win. Only by shining a light in spaces that would rather remain dark can we make progress. That is the reason I'd like to think ESO includes topics like bigotry in it's storylines, not to promote it- but to open discussion up around the topic and maybe, just maybe, make people think.

spartaxoxo · July 2023

TybaltKaine wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

No, it's not. A person can do a bigoted thing or even have a bigoted belief without even realizing it, and not be an overall bigot. For example, they might believe a stereotype about a nation that isn't true. But, overall be supportive of that nation and its people.

Edited: I don't agree wanting this thread closed is bigoted. But, that needs to be said because people have difficulty learning and growing from their mistakes if they aren't open to correction.

That's fair but expecting people to make that distinction in the moment is difficult. Emotion tends to cloud judgement, especially when one feels insulted or attacked.

Sure. Which is I generally refrain from using that type of language. It's inflammatory and gets people's defenses up. It definitely shouldn't be something easily said on here, where there's a different standard of civility expected.

But, I nevertheless felt it important to point out because we've all said bad things we regret. But, how you respond to being corrected is important. Do you learn and grow and change? Or do you cling to things like maybe someone wasn't artful in their delivery or excuses and double down on the behavior? Perhaps in the moment it's difficult. But later?

Anyway, I am glad I know about this now. I'll be keeping an eye out for it in the news. So, for that reason I am somewhat glad OP made the thread even though I don't think it's appropriate here lol. I'm really glad someone linked a news article too. I think ultimately the news sites is where it's better off discussed.

fall0athboy · July 2023

One thing I found is that Maryland is a two-party consent recording state. A key thing to Maryland's law on this is that recording, even with consent of both parties, with tortious intent, is illegal.

It is absolutely an uphill battle to prove the recordings were done with the intent to sue, but if this gets to courts, that's how it'll get dragged out.