I don't see the need. I completed all Cyrodiil achievements in two sessions, I played off peak using my HA templar and player interaction was minimal to non existent. I was killed twice. Even got a couple of kills myself during those sessions. Most folk were pretty chill to be fair. If you avoid the emp ring when theres fighting you'll have the map to yourself. So no to civvie cyro. There is no need with minimal effort.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Tarloch_S wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Your last paragraph makes no sense at all: Of course players are interested in rewards, that's the very nature of an online game for a lot of players. Let's look at daily writs for example, thousands upon thousands people do their writs every day. Why is that? Do they like being in a crafting menu? For the majority that's unlikely. They do it for the rewards exclusively. So, shall we remove crafting? Or is it better to implement more attractive rewards to PvP?

This makes no sense as my last paragraph did not imply what you are saying. It referenced another posters argument and I merely say that if that's the case then it may be doomed. :shrug: Maybe some communication confusion with us, but I hear what you are saying.

Personally I'm not driven to do things in any game for a reward. I'm driven to do things I enjoy. If that reaps some kind of in game reward great...if not I could care less. If a reward is locked behind an activity I do not enjoy, I just don't get the reward. I'm sure as heck not going to pay someone to do activities in my free time that I do not enjoy...for any reason.

Well, I share your point of view regarding rewards. Personally I also don't get it why a lot of people try to do content they don't enjoy just for the sake of some digital remuneration. I never would.

Thing is, it's a reality for a whole bunch of people, as we see every day ingame as well as on forums. Also most complaints are about "being forced" to do something unenjoyable to get the desired shiny at the end, especially regarding PvP (and PvE endgame of course). That's not an issue with the game in my opinion but human error. That's why I oppose your suggested changes. I simply refuse to destroy a working system just to cater to behaviour I can't describe in any other term than narrowminded greed.

I think VaranisArano described very well the mechanics to "lure" people in trying out something, and I'm convinced that's a good thing. I discovered PvP the same way back in 2014 (The heck, I discovered the joy of online games in general this way. I got lured into it, or let's say I was invited to try it out.) and still play it casually on occassion. This system should be extended, not gutted.

I'm sure this opportunity for the many "silent" gamers outweights the complaints of some unsatisfied players by far. Especially when we consider, that a lot of the ranting we witness(particulary during events) isn't caused by an utter rejection in general, but includes a lot of hot temper due to failed expectations. Nobody enjoys to die, nonetheless that's part of the learning process, in PvP and in any other part of a video game.

I hope this helps a bit in removing the communication confusion the two of us definitely have

That said, I would support a PvE instance of Cyrodiil and IC, so that people may quest and explore this zones, but with deactivated achievements, shards, rewards and so on. A honest question: Do you think that would satisfy the people which try to enforce PvE Cyrodiil for literally 10 years meanwhile? I don't think so, because I'm convinced they are after the rewards.

While I agree in general, I do want to push back a little on the "narrow-minded greed" with a little more nuance because in discussing it through the years and my own experiences with FOMO, it is more nuanced.

Yes, there's some degree of just wanting the rewards, easier. However, I really think its less about greed and more about the idea that "I play games to enjoy myself. Why should I have to play content I don't enjoy to get the rewards I want?"

That's a common refrain I've seen from players in these types of threads through the years. And yes, FOMO is not fun. Feeling "forced" or "goaded" to play content they don't enjoy to get rewards is not fun. And yeah, many players genuinely don't find PVP fun for lots of reasons even if they are willing to queue up and participate when the rewards are good enough.

While ZOS clearly wants players to play ALL the content if they want ALL the rewards for the good of the game regardless of whether or not players are having fun doing it, that answer will never satisfy players for whom having fun is the primary purpose of games.

And so we're always going to have these threads where players effectively say "Risking PVP for event tickets, jubilee boxes, endeavors, skyshards, quests, etc. is not fun for me. Can we get a PVE-only option so I can have fun?"

I agree to an extent, it is indeed more nuanced. Nonetheless the core of the issue remains.

"Why should I have to play content I don't enjoy to get the rewards I want?" Look at this question. The activity, content itself, is already in the background here, the focus goes to the rewards instead.

But what is a reward without the appropriate content? There is no inherent value inside a video game, I think we all agree on that. So it has to be something else. Membership to a group? Unlikely, given the lack of interest in the activity itself and the community enjoying it. But I won't speculate any further about that, it's only important for the affected individuals.

Nonetheless it's interesting that this specific form of FOMO extends only to the rewards, not the activity. The latter is happily missed out on purpose because it's not enjoyable.

I wouldn't bother with this behaviour, if there weren't damage caused to others. But there is damage, a lot of it.

First of all it creates a toxic environment and impacts the playerbase negatively by splitting them in groups hostile to each other.
Additionally the game itself is negatively affected.

In my opinion it's not the game which needs to change here, nor the general community but only the players affected by this suffering.

Honestly, they sit in a rabbit hole and it helps nobody if we run after them and take place next to them.

There's great pve in Cyrodiil already with town quests and in the sewers. I think you just have to either get better at pvp or accept occasionally that you'll die while doing it. If you accept it, it's a lot of fun and more lore is there.

SimonThesis wrote: »

Cyrodiil is a pvp zone, there are dozens of questing zones.

Personally they should just remove all of the pve elements from cyrodiil. I believe that you should build for whatever kind of content you go to, cyro put on a pvp build, trials put on a vet trial build, IC put on an IC build etc.

I have heard "Cyrodiil is a PVP zone" many times and don't particularly agree with this statement. Based on the overwhelming amount of PVE focused content in the zone, I'm not sure how it's justified. It seems more like a PVE zone that PVP has been enable in. At the very least it's equal right? Dolmens, delves, overland quests, fishing, skyshards etcetera. None of which has anything to do with PVP. (except you may run into someone and be forced into a PVP situation) idk :shrug:

Now if you said the Battlegrounds is a PVP zone...that makes sense to me as (there are no PVE activities in there correct?)

I've also heard many make the statement "build for whatever kind of content you go to" which is not irrational but is it rational to expect that of the casual player base?. For this to make sense to me, everyone would have to have the amount time and desire to accomplish that...and though I have no data to support it, I would place a bet that a majority fall into one of those 2 (lack of time or desire) and absolutely do not have optimized builds to be able to just jump into any scenario and succeed in a fun manner.

Again, thanks to all who embrace intellectual discussions.

Tarloch_S wrote: »

SimonThesis wrote: »

Cyrodiil is a pvp zone, there are dozens of questing zones.

Personally they should just remove all of the pve elements from cyrodiil. I believe that you should build for whatever kind of content you go to, cyro put on a pvp build, trials put on a vet trial build, IC put on an IC build etc.

I have heard "Cyrodiil is a PVP zone" many times and don't particularly agree with this statement. Based on the overwhelming amount of PVE focused content in the zone, I'm not sure how it's justified. It seems more like a PVE zone that PVP has been enable in. At the very least it's equal right? Dolmens, delves, overland quests, fishing, skyshards etcetera. None of which has anything to do with PVP. (except you may run into someone and be forced into a PVP situation) idk :shrug:

Now if you said the Battlegrounds is a PVP zone...that makes sense to me as (there are no PVE activities in there correct?)

Again, thanks to all who embrace intellectual discussions.

I'll admit I'm guilty of using "its a PVP zone" as a shorthand for "Its a PVP-enabled zone. If you queue up for it, don't expect it to quest and skyshard hunt like you can in the PVE-only safe part of the game."

So please, let me apologize for any confusion I've caused. I do know the more accurate term for it, and I should be better about calling it a PVP/PVE zone.

..................................................

*Takes a deep breath*

Here's why PVP/PVE is the accurate term for Cyrodiil and Imperial CIty, with some sources.

PVP/PVE is the term that ZOS uses. It's their game so I assume they'd be the experts, right?

For example, here's some excerpts from the Imperial City Launch details: https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/25357

"While exploring and fighting your way through the Imperial City, be prepared to face not only Molag Bal's forces, but also enemy players from the opposing alliances."

"Fight Molag Bal's personal guard, the elite Xivkyn, and other invaders from Coldharbour to win Tel Var Stones, the currency used to trade for mighty Veteran Rank 16 armor sets. But be on your guard—enemy Alliance members lurk around every corner throughout the Imperial Districts and Sewers. Should you fall to an enemy player, they can claim your hard-earned Tel Var Stones in their own quest for glory."

"A brand new PvP/PvE space, including the six Imperial City Districts"


But let's look at something more recent. As far Events go, the PVP/PVE nature of Whitestrake's Mayhem is all over ZOS' official announcement. Sometimes they even come out and say it directly, like in This Event's announcement here: https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/64353

During this event, you can earn up to three Event Tickets each day by completing two different PvP activities:

• Two Event Tickets from the first Cyrodiil or Battleground daily repeatable quest. Note that these can include Bounty Board quests, a Town Daily, the Conquest Board quests, or the daily Battleground quest
• One Event Ticket from a District daily quest within the Imperial City

(What's that? ZOS including the Town Dailies and IC District Quests in the list of, and I quote, "PVP activities"? Hmmm. That's kind of awkward for the idea that those are PVE quests, wholly unrelated to PVP except for the risk of fighting another player. Well, ZOS are the experts, I'd say.)

......................................

Cyrodiil and Imperial City are clearly not PVE-only zones. And you're right, they also are clearly not PVP-only zones.

They're PVP/PVE. They're Alliance War Zones, and unlike every PVE-only zone in the game, you have to specifically queue up for them because they are PVP-enabled.

ZOS deliberately and intentionally mixed PVP and PVE elements in Cyrodiil and Imperial City.

• Cyrodiil as a PVP/PVE zone: please review my first comment this thread where I listed out for you all the ways that dolmens, delves, skyshards, and fishing are in fact related to Cyrodiil PVP. Also, I don't know how much Alliance War experience you have, but Cyrodiil is built primarily for AvAvA fighting to capture and defend keeps and resources. Its definitely not a regular PVE zone with PVP tacked on.
• Imperial City as a PVP/PVE zone: please review the Launch details link, the Tel Var guide here https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/guides/imperialcitytelvar, and if you want, I will be happy to give you a similar list of how ZOS deliberately tied the daily quests, the main quest, skyshards and fish into the PVP aspects of Imperial City. We can talk about how ZOS set up questers to get ganked in the Arena. Literally, its an achievement!

...........................................

So while I'm very sorry if I'm been inaccurate by calling Cyrodiil/Imperial CIty "PVP zones", its also inaccurate to say that quests, dolmens, skyshards, etc in PVP/PVE zones are the equivalent of "PVE-only" content in other zones. That's not how PVP/PVE zones work. You're intended to do the PVE content mixed in with PVP or at least with the threat of PVP. That comes through in ZOS' game design AND their promotional materials.

I realize that some players may not LIKE that design choice, but that's irrelevant to how Cyrodiil and Imperial City are supposed to work.

......................................

TL;DR because I'm sorry I'm longwinded:



And I've certainly appreciated the discussions as well.

Tarloch_S wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

So please, let me apologize for any confusion I've caused.
Here's why PVP/PVE is the accurate term for Cyrodiil and Imperial CIty, with some sources.

PVP/PVE is the term that ZOS uses. It's their game so I assume they'd be the experts, right?

No apology necessary for sure and I hope my thoughts did not covey arrogance or irritability. My social interactive skills are very out of practice as I am a hermit who avoids interacting with people like the Bubonic plague (both irl and games.) Miscommunication Is inevitable and I'm quite often guilty of not conveying my hyperactive thoughts articulately. (They call it ADDHD now and market drugs for it but in the 70's I was just that hyper kid in class.)

I was/am attempting to truly view the situation from a perspective out of the "normal" and funny enough I thought about adding much of what you added...(after the fact out on the tractor.) I have often felt that technicalities and such can mask actualities and vise versa . So I agree with much while at the same time just shaking my head as I see things and understand where people are coming from on multifaceted levels...if that makes any sense at all.

There have been many instances over the years where I have observed (and participated with) people discussing this topic
in game. After a very short time here in the forums I've learned that it's a recurring discussion for many years.

I spent just a few minutes browsing 1000's of threads and quickly surmised (no data to validate this) that the number of players that even show up here are minute. Now split that with the very small number who actually participate and then by how many are active at any give point and it's simple enough to deduce that votes and responses here are not an accurate representation of the active player base, but the trumpets of a minority in time.

Evidence indicates that this topic of conversation is defiantly a multi year cross platform issue which would seem to merit a real investigation...(or if it were my business it would.) I won't presume to advise ZOS to offer some form of in game communication (over there around the feedback area) that can be opted in/out of where they can administer controlled polls on subjects to try and get a more accurate metric of active player complaints and desires. Nor would I claim that you can entice many to participate with some silly pet or nonsense...just like twitch drops. It would still be skewed by those who have multiple accounts and no integrity...or if a minority participated but probably better than looking at these forum posts? idk :shrug:

I didn't read arrogance or irritability from you, so no worries. Tone is hard on the Internet for everyone, I think.

And you're totally right that this is a common, evergreen topic in game and on the forums.

And yes, you're totally right that there's relatively few people on the forums compared to the playerbase as a whole, and we're not representative of the playerbase. Our polls are laughably small.

That being said, ZOS already has the in-game data they need to accurately evaluate the success or failure of PVP/PVE zones: they've got the literal server data of who logs in on a day-to-day basis, how many players earn how many event rewards, and all that. They also know how many people never participate in PVP or who buy event tickets and Alliance War skill lines/skyshards to avoid PVP. They know that IC is really low population when its not an event and that its population booms when it is.

So sure, they could do an email survey of some sort. They've done those before.

But they already have the data to determine how many PVPers play regularly and how many PVE-preferring players are actually willing to go to PVP/PVE zones to get the rewards they want. And so far, that's been enough players that they continue to run Whitestrake's Mayhem twice a year and PVP/PVE endeavors regularly, enough players that they've left Imperial City PVP/PVE untouched except to add rewards like costumes monster helms and leads to it, and enough players that they've been rewriting the code so they can (maybe, hopefully, finally, who knows at this point) fix Cyrodiil's persistent performance issues.

And while there might be enough players asking for a PVE-zone on a survey of the whole playerbase, its also worth remembering that it doesn't matter how many players ask if its against ZOS' vision for the game.

For example: an Auction House instead of or in addition to Trading Guilds. Its a long-running topic that's fairly popular outside of the forums, but everything ZOS has said or done about it indicates that's not how they want to run the game economy.

Charitably, I'd suggest that everything ZOS has done over the years suggests that they are happy to keep PVP/PVE zones as mixed environments and Whitestrake's Mayhem as a PVP-centric event. (And less charitably to ZOS, I'd suggest they're also happy to make $$$ selling event tickets and skill lines/skyshards to people who'd rather avoid PVP/PVE zones completely. When players Play OR Pay, its a win-win for ZOS.)

Now, obviously, ZOS could announce something tomorrow or years down the line that'll prove me wrong about their intentions. I've been wrong before. But until then, I'm going to keep teaching PVE-preferring players how to make their PVP/PVE experiences a little easier, because that's the ESO we play.

LoL watch all the toxic pvp players drive away more people from playing pvp with their toxicity.
The pathetic gankers preying on questers this event are enough to drive me away. They are out in plague proportions this event.

To keep within the lore an armistice campaign could be an option. No AP gain maybe, but content wouldn't need any tweaking.

Civilians in cyro get killed to lol. Ever seen what happens when a resource is taken or the merchant flags in the towns. Js

"2. A Civilian can still be attacked and killed by soldiers but the offender would be marked as a "War criminal" and suffer some form of critically severe punishment to dissuade such behavior."

I'd be all for this just so I could see "LF war crimes group" in zone chat.

Tarloch_S wrote: »

Civilian noun a person who is not on active duty with a military, naval, police, or fire fighting organization. Maybe Citizen is a more appropriate tag as in game that's what you are before being forced as a volunteer?

Proposal noun a plan or suggestion, especially a formal or written one, put forward for consideration or discussion by others.
====== Not to be confused with: ======
Request noun an act of asking politely or formally for something.
Desired outcome: Inspire a discussion about the subject matters plausibility, feasibility and overall positive or negative impact it could have on the community.

Proposal: By adding a Civilian option you would be opening areas of the game to a population of players who choose not to experience them rather than be forced to endure a playstyle they do not enjoy and participate in a war they may not support. Currently you enter as a Citizen and are forced to become enlisted as a Volunteer (active duty with a military) and deemed the enemy by other alliances. All activities/rewards coded around the war (PVP) would be unavailable to a Civilian.

Would you be in favor of a Civilian mode in the Alliance War? Would opening the war to PVE civilian players take anything away from the PVP player? Why or why not?

Some thoughts:

1. Allow players to join a campaign (locked for it's entirety) as a Civilian.

2. A Civilian can still be attacked and killed by soldiers but the offender would be marked as a "War criminal" and suffer some form of critically severe punishment to dissuade such behavior.

3. "War criminal" - What should the punishment be if any?

4. How to prevent antagonists from posing as a Civilian and trying to gank Soldiers into a kill?

• Civilian tag should be Very distinguishable.
• Delayed damage? Perhaps it takes multiple attacks with almost no damage to start the kill process?
• Civilian can't cause damage to soldiers?

5. Combat between 2 players marked as "Civilian" would be controlled by the duel code currently in place.

6. Marked civilians have no alliance thus allowing travel through all areas?

• Maybe, quests that let you acquire travel papers to navigate zones not in your alliance origin?

Interesting, I've been suggesting to developers that the 40+ PVE zones be open for PVP. Why should PVE'ers be allowed to hide in PVE zones where I cannot attack them? I think I should be allowed to attack them at banks (and then take their gold, maps, etc.) and while afk'ing at craft stations or run a PVP group through a public dungeon, world bosses or even in their trial instances and wipe them while they are practicing their tactics for scripted encounters. Maybe even invade their guild halls and pilfer their loot. That would be entertaining.

In fact, we should be able to make them prisoners and then they would be like a forced companion and follow us around. That would be even better.

But I doubt that would happen.

My advice to those afraid to enter a PVP zone. Learn to PVP or enjoy any of the 40+ overland PVE zones, 100+ delves, dungeons and trials. Plenty of PVE content out their before asking to overhaul one of our only 2 zones when there already major improvements needed. Either that, you could just queue up to Ravenwatch. The 10 or so regulars who play that campaign probably would not even notice you.