Defense tick in Cyrodiil needs to be given more often, not just when keep unflags

Cuwen · July 2023

When and why did ZoS change the defense tick rule to where you only get a tick if the keep unflags?? We used to get one every few minutes. We just spent an hour defending Alessia, and we got absolutely no AP whatsoever for it. I'm not mad we lost. It was a great fight. I just think it is utter garbage that we get no AP for all of that, no defense tick. Please, ZoS, switch it so that we get good ticks every few minutes, not only when the keep unflags. All three factions should agree with this.

Libonotus · July 2023

Cuwen wrote: »

When and why did ZoS change the defense tick rule to where you only get a tick if the keep unflags?? We used to get one every few minutes. We just spent an hour defending Alessia, and we got absolutely no AP whatsoever for it. I'm not mad we lost. It was a great fight. I just think it is utter garbage that we get no AP for all of that, no defense tick. Please, ZoS, switch it so that we get good ticks every few minutes, not only when the keep unflags. All three factions should agree with this.

I like it the way it is if you don’t manage to defend it you get no AP vice versa

Treeshka · July 2023

For defense tick to occur there should not be any player death within castle range for a set amount of time.

kargen27 · July 2023

I imagine this would be easy to abuse.

Dark_Lord_Kuro · July 2023

Ap are a reward for completing an objective, such as successfully defending a keep or taking one
We shouldnt be rewarded for failinf at those. Also it would be easy to abuse. Ride alone to an eneme keep flag it and let the kill you, here take your at least you tried ap.

Naftal · July 2023

They haven't changed anything. Def tick happens one minute after the last death within that objective range.

jaws343 · July 2023

Libonotus wrote: »

Cuwen wrote: »

When and why did ZoS change the defense tick rule to where you only get a tick if the keep unflags?? We used to get one every few minutes. We just spent an hour defending Alessia, and we got absolutely no AP whatsoever for it. I'm not mad we lost. It was a great fight. I just think it is utter garbage that we get no AP for all of that, no defense tick. Please, ZoS, switch it so that we get good ticks every few minutes, not only when the keep unflags. All three factions should agree with this.

I like it the way it is if you don’t manage to defend it you get no AP vice versa

It's pretty awful currently.

I was at a BRK defense the other night for around 40 minutes. The fight at the keep was basically over but we had to wait another 20 minutes before the defensive tick hit. 20 minutes where we either had to lose our on 150k AP tick or defend other keeps and overwrite the AP gain from 40 mins of effort.

It needs to tick more frequently, with a final tick for a successful defense.

Holycannoli · July 2023

But how would offense ticks work then? You only get it if the keep is captured?

This is also easy to abuse.

jaws343 · July 2023

Holycannoli wrote: »

But how would offense ticks work then? You only get it if the keep is captured?

This is also easy to abuse.

It should probably tick off of the keep being unflagged as well as player deaths nearby.
There is no reason a trickle of players coming in and dying for 20 minutes should prolong a successful 40 minute defense against two factions. I'm talking 40 minutes of repelling and repairing broken walls and doors. Only to have to wait 20 more minutes, after literally taking Sej with the defending group, and BRK remains unflagged, for 20 more minutes, with no d tick. All because a few players trickled in to die for that time.

BahometZ · July 2023

Abuse will happen no matter what. Players find cheese. The point of generous ongoing d ticks is to incentivise defence. There's a point reached after a long defence where you may as well concede simply for the sake of less time wasted. If you get no AP maintaining a defence, then may as well let em take, take it back, and cyrodiil becomes PvDoor.

h9dlb · July 2023

It's broke at the minute

tomofhyrule · July 2023

There is also the case to be made for offense as well.

Imagine if one alliance owns a keep and another comes to siege. They could be sieging for 30+ minutes, playing well, dealing with camps, etc. and then the offensive alliance finally breaks through and goes the the flags. The offense finally defeats the defenders and stands on the flags. That means that the first alliance, despite fighting PvP for over half an hour, gets nothing for their time.
...and then the third alliance comes in with a zerg/ball through the open doors, wipes everyone before the flags flip, and then the second alliance also has nothing to show for their work.

I do agree that not giving AP ticks for ongoing battles really incentivizes... not battling other players because you only get minimal AP gains from kills, so if it's a standoff then each side is wasting their time (after all, how many people will walk away with lots of AP from a battle at Alessia bridge?). If there were AP ticks from actual siege, then it may help to incentivize more defending keeps and less "ah, let's just leave them to PvD it and then we'll take it back when they're gone."

katanagirl1 · July 2023

I think the AP ticks are fine, they seem to be the same as long as I have been playing in Cyrodiil, sometime before Summerset I think.

Something in the code for unflagging keeps and AP ticks has just become extremely laggy. I have been at a keep that was just flagged to draw players away from another keep and the flagger was gone, the keep completely repaired, and still a 2-3 minute wait for the AP tick. They need to find out what is causing that lag.

EDIT: it also took just as long as the AP tick for the keep to unflag as well

MindOfTheSwarm · July 2023

This could be changed to award AP when getting kills while defending or attacking keeps, but you lose AP if you die while doing these things. No AP would be awarded or lost for field deaths. There would be no cheesing then as no one would want to lose their AP.

Freelancer_ESO · July 2023

I think it would make more sense to switch more towards splitting the ticks with the winning party getting a bit more than the losers over the current winner take all design.

You want your reward design to support the styles of behavior you want players to engage in.

Winner take all favors faction imbalances, zerging, and PvDoor from players that aren't very good because engaging in that style of behaviour can provide them a steady return.

NyassaV · July 2023

Libonotus wrote: »

Cuwen wrote: »

When and why did ZoS change the defense tick rule to where you only get a tick if the keep unflags?? We used to get one every few minutes. We just spent an hour defending Alessia, and we got absolutely no AP whatsoever for it. I'm not mad we lost. It was a great fight. I just think it is utter garbage that we get no AP for all of that, no defense tick. Please, ZoS, switch it so that we get good ticks every few minutes, not only when the keep unflags. All three factions should agree with this.

I like it the way it is if you don’t manage to defend it you get no AP vice versa

Then there is no incentive to defend unless you have a big group and know for a fact you'll win.

Jamie_Aubrey · July 2023

Ticks need to be buffed, we spent 30 mins defending a keep only to get 17k ( yes there would have been hundreds of people around ) but we could have got more taking a few keeps and outposts

Other times you can run into a keep and kill everyone in 30 seconds and get a bigger tick for less work

Dagoth_Rac · July 2023

I don't think ZOS want to incentivize defense. They prefer active maps, with keeps easily flipping and unflipping on a steady basis.

Vulkunne · July 2023

Yeah this is truly something that at very least really feels like a random occurrence.

Would be nice perhaps in upcoming PTS Notes they could provide us with more info on how this works excatly.

katanagirl1 · July 2023

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

I don't think ZOS want to incentivize defense. They prefer active maps, with keeps easily flipping and unflipping on a steady basis.

You’re supposed to get double AP defending versus attacking, right?

What do they call it, native objectives, aka home keeps?

MindOfTheSwarm · July 2023

I think they should add PvE Daedra that attempt to take keeps now and again. Might spice the game up a bit… although I guess that’s what Imp City is for.

Reverb · July 2023

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

I think they should add PvE Daedra that attempt to take keeps now and again. Might spice the game up a bit… although I guess that’s what Imp City is for.

Like invasions in New World. I like the idea. It would add an interesting component to the map if Drake or Warden suddenly lit up with no notice and needed defended from daedra. It would open the door for double teaming the faction fighting NPCs as well as swooping in and taking an enemy keep that the daedra had opened up for you.

As always though I worry about the performance impact.

Dagoth_Rac · July 2023

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

I don't think ZOS want to incentivize defense. They prefer active maps, with keeps easily flipping and unflipping on a steady basis.

You’re supposed to get double AP defending versus attacking, right?

What do they call it, native objectives, aka home keeps?

I always assumed the double was for campaign scoring, not AP. Like if DC holds Roebuck or Chalman, those would each be worth 1 point at score refresh, but DC holding Aleswell and Ash would each be worth 2 points because those are DC keeps. I have never investigated that too deeply, though. I always seem to crash right before a big D-tick and miss them, so not sure about an Ash tick versus a Roe tick for similar fight. Seriously, I can go days without a crash but if there is a big D-tick about to pop, boom ... crash!

katanagirl1 · July 2023

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

I don't think ZOS want to incentivize defense. They prefer active maps, with keeps easily flipping and unflipping on a steady basis.

You’re supposed to get double AP defending versus attacking, right?

What do they call it, native objectives, aka home keeps?

I always assumed the double was for campaign scoring, not AP. Like if DC holds Roebuck or Chalman, those would each be worth 1 point at score refresh, but DC holding Aleswell and Ash would each be worth 2 points because those are DC keeps. I have never investigated that too deeply, though. I always seem to crash right before a big D-tick and miss them, so not sure about an Ash tick versus a Roe tick for similar fight. Seriously, I can go days without a crash but if there is a big D-tick about to pop, boom ... crash!

Oh that could be the case. Dang I thought I was getting more AP. Oh well, I have to defend because not many other players will do it, though it would make more sense if they did if you are correct, lol.

Luede · July 2023

Cuwen wrote: »

When and why did ZoS change the defense tick rule to where you only get a tick if the keep unflags?? We used to get one every few minutes. We just spent an hour defending Alessia, and we got absolutely no AP whatsoever for it. I'm not mad we lost. It was a great fight. I just think it is utter garbage that we get no AP for all of that, no defense tick. Please, ZoS, switch it so that we get good ticks every few minutes, not only when the keep unflags. All three factions should agree with this.

that's not the case either, you get a def tick if no defender dies a certain time. i've gotten several def ticks in a fight where i was defending alone.

geonsocal · July 2023

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

I think they should add PvE Daedra that attempt to take keeps now and again. Might spice the game up a bit…

i can see it now, just prior to getting gated, the hammer, along with a bunch of evil daedra coming to stomp your guts out...that would be funny indeed...

katanagirl1 · July 2023

So you want to make a PvP area have more PvE??? No thanks