Opt out Mudballs/Pie

SilverBride · July 2023

My day isn't ruined if I get hit once by a mudball when running through town. It is however if someone repeatedly his me with them to prevent me from opening lockboxes because they wanted them, which I've experienced.

These types of items have a huge potential for harassment and trolling and that alone is a good reason for a toggle.

spartaxoxo · July 2023

Braffin wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

rootkitronin wrote: »

Let's look at it another way, ZOS has x amount of time and resources, and they want to distribute those across 50 to 100 QoL improvements. They are going to want to address the most critical issues first.

QOL improvements, are by definition, not things of critical importance. They are small changes that generally improved the user experience. These things do no affect balance or performance but are minor things that make the game better. Things like the all-in-one crafting station, being able to search by unknown in guild traders, etc, etc.

This change would not bump something critically important.

And "this minor issue is much more important than this other minor issue" doesn't seem like a great reason to keep it off the "minor issues to fix when we fix minor issues" list to me, personally.

That's simply not true. While QoL improvements don't add anything new to the game per definition, they can indeed be of critical importance.

One example would be bugfixing, which is definitely improving gaming experience. Of course this bugs can be difficult to address (for the "stuck in combat" bug) and therefore bind substantial development resources.

Same goes for accessibility options, difficulty options, server performance and similar topics. All of that is affecting QoL.

So things have to be prioritized, and to prevent occasional mudballing isn't exceedingly important to most players, I dare to say.

The reason they called it a bug fixing and quality of life changes patch is because bug fixing is not the same thing as quality of life. Neither is accessibility options, which also has it's own term.

Quality of life changes are minor issues that may not have a big impact on performance or balance, but can have a significant impact on the user experience.

That may be your personal opinion and I respect that but allow myself to oppose it.

I mean sure but they literally note that QOL is a separate thing happening at the same time as the bug fixing. The developers speak about them routinely as two different things.

"Q3: Focus on Quality-of-Life improvements and bug fixes. "

spartaxoxo · July 2023

rootkitronin wrote: »

@spartaxoxo what you consider to be minor on the front end may not be minor at all on the backend, QoL improvements aren't just limited to small scoped things. There is nothing saying that QoL improvements can't be critical or large in scope - especially when we're talking about the work that needs to go into them on the backend.

As for "this very minor issue is much more important than this other very minor issue" - that is a great reason to keep it off the minor issues to fix list. Why wouldn't you prioritize much more important minor issues or less important minor issues??

They can't fix all the issues, that will never happen. So they fix the issues that necessary, most requested, have the best work to payout ratios - if this minor issue is none of those (which it absolutely seems to be) why would they even bother? That time could be spent elsewhere.

Given that mud balls are not unique, and seem to be incorporated into a larger system that involves interactions between players, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that it's probably not as easy a resolution as many people here might be thinking - most likely, it's one aspect of a much bigger system, and as a dev, you don't want to screw around with that unless it's absolutely needed.

This minor issue is actually one of the most frequently requested on the forums, actually.

And people are asking for it to be added to the list. Why should one issue being fixed first mean another shouldn't even be added to the list?

I'd understand if it was like "I'd hope they fix guild trader search before this" but the opposition is that it's not a reasonable request at all. And it can't be added to the minor issues list because other minor issues exist. And that I don't agree with.

QOL can be something large in scope development time wise. But stuff like critical bug fixes fall under the category of bug fixes. They are by definition not things of critical importantance

Braffin · July 2023

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

rootkitronin wrote: »

Let's look at it another way, ZOS has x amount of time and resources, and they want to distribute those across 50 to 100 QoL improvements. They are going to want to address the most critical issues first.

QOL improvements, are by definition, not things of critical importance. They are small changes that generally improved the user experience. These things do no affect balance or performance but are minor things that make the game better. Things like the all-in-one crafting station, being able to search by unknown in guild traders, etc, etc.

This change would not bump something critically important.

And "this minor issue is much more important than this other minor issue" doesn't seem like a great reason to keep it off the "minor issues to fix when we fix minor issues" list to me, personally.

That's simply not true. While QoL improvements don't add anything new to the game per definition, they can indeed be of critical importance.

One example would be bugfixing, which is definitely improving gaming experience. Of course this bugs can be difficult to address (for the "stuck in combat" bug) and therefore bind substantial development resources.

Same goes for accessibility options, difficulty options, server performance and similar topics. All of that is affecting QoL.

So things have to be prioritized, and to prevent occasional mudballing isn't exceedingly important to most players, I dare to say.

The reason they called it a bug fixing and quality of life changes patch is because bug fixing is not the same thing as quality of life. Neither is accessibility options, which also has it's own term.

Quality of life changes are minor issues that may not have a big impact on performance or balance, but can have a significant impact on the user experience.

That may be your personal opinion and I respect that but allow myself to oppose it.

I mean sure but they literally note that QOL is a separate thing happening at the same time as the bug fixing. The developers speak about them routinely as two different things.

"Q3: Focus on Quality-of-Life improvements and bug fixes. "

Sure, we could quibble all day long. 😆

But nonetheless I think the positions are clear, so there is no need to do so.

Tarloch_S · July 2023

merpins wrote: »

Right? They should also stop doing PVP specific events, because as a PVE player, I'm being excluded since that is content I don't want to participate in..

Comparing this subject to an action someone has a choice to participate in is asinine as you have no choice in this matter.

rootkitronin wrote: »

So, as someone who pays to play this game, I would much rather ZOS focus their QoL efforts on actual problems (of which their are many) and improvements that will provide a positive return for a large number of players, rather than catering to a very small group of people that lack of the maturity to cope with the odd mud ball being thrown at them from time to time.

These are grown adults making mountains out of mud balls, and it's just silly.

Exactly what data is there to support your claim that "it's a very small group"? It may be that 90% of paying customers despise the mechanic and want it changed.

Unsubstantiated claims that it's a small group and attempting to delegitimize others views by making accusations of immaturity or over-reactive, histrionic behavior seems like an attempt to justify your view while diminishing others.

Braffin · July 2023

SilverBride wrote: »

My day isn't ruined if I get hit once by a mudball when running through town. It is however if someone repeatedly his me with them to prevent me from opening lockboxes because they wanted them, which I've experienced.

These types of items have a huge potential for harassment and trolling and that alone is a good reason for a toggle.

I agree that harassment and trolling aren't tolerable. But we have already a code of conduct to deal with such behaviour.

[Snip]

[Edited for naming/shaming]

rootkitronin · July 2023

Tarloch_S wrote: »

Unsubstantiated claims that it's a small group and attempting to delegitimize others views by making accusations of immaturity or over-reactive, histrionic behavior seems like an attempt to justify your view while diminishing others.

Yeah, I've been playing the game since Morrowind's release, actively involved in the public test server, numerous discord communities, the ESO reddit - and this does not come up as a significant issue ever. Slight annoyance every now and then, sure, but that's it.

As for immature, yes, it is immature, and even more so when you're going to try and compare a mud ball in a video game to an assault in real life - I think I'm justified in calling that out for what it is. Seriously, you're an adult, and if you can't deal with someone throwing a mud ball at you in ESO, then the mud ball really isn't your problem. Do you want to mute the trumpet emote too? What about apex amounts? Those can be annoying, right? And don't even get me started on the new teleport effect! Like come on, no one is saying you have to like everything in ESO, but let's all grow up a little bit and learn how to just accept and deal with some of these things.

The reality is, if mud balls were the issue that the select few people in this thread make them out to be, that issue would have been corrected ages ago - you would see far more posts on the subject, and they would not be limited to only the official forums. I don't see that, I don't see the frequency, and I don't see the numbers, I don't see it in my own experience, or the experience of the many different people I play with.

Do I have official numbers, no, but then again, no one here does either - so I'm making the best guess of what information I have available. If you actually are about the issue, then do some work and go out and get the numbers, I would love to see them.

Veloth_Redothril · July 2023

As long as Zenimax also adds a toggle allowing me to bypass the "no mudballs pretty plz" toggle option, as my inability to target other players whenever and wherever I like would directly affect my enjoyment of the game.

spartaxoxo · July 2023

rootkitronin wrote: »

Tarloch_S wrote: »

Unsubstantiated claims that it's a small group and attempting to delegitimize others views by making accusations of immaturity or over-reactive, histrionic behavior seems like an attempt to justify your view while diminishing others.

Yeah, I've been playing the game since Morrowind's release, actively involved in the public test server, numerous discord communities, the ESO reddit - and this does not come up as a significant issue ever. Slight annoyance every now and then, sure, but that's it.

Significant? No. I'd agree, it's not a significant issue. I've seen only a small amount of people describe it as anything beyond annoying or trolling. So I do agree with you on that part.

It's a QOL change not a major issue. But, I mean there's a whole patch getting dedicated to QOL changes and bug fixes. I think that's a pretty good time to address frequent quality of life requests.

The most frequent I have seen (I don't support all of them, just reporting the ones I remember seeing most)

*Better searchable guild traders
*Separate queue for dlc and base game dungeons
*Hiding summons blocking crafting tables
*All-in-one crafting table for homes (coming in Q3)
*Searchable crafting stations and ways to track which recipes are known
*More item slots in houses (current known stance is impossible due to tech reasons)
*Toggle for mudballs
*A fix for the lead situation in treasure maps
*Better rewards from playing the game instead of crown store
*Stackable treasure maps
*Better separation of face cosmetics and more skimpy outfits

I'm sure there are some frequent ones I'm forgetting, but these are the ones that spring immediately to mind because I've seen them so often.

rootkitronin · July 2023

spartaxoxo wrote: »

rootkitronin wrote: »

Tarloch_S wrote: »

Unsubstantiated claims that it's a small group and attempting to delegitimize others views by making accusations of immaturity or over-reactive, histrionic behavior seems like an attempt to justify your view while diminishing others.

Yeah, I've been playing the game since Morrowind's release, actively involved in the public test server, numerous discord communities, the ESO reddit - and this does not come up as a significant issue ever. Slight annoyance every now and then, sure, but that's it.

Significant? No. I'd agree, it's not a significant issue. I've seen only a small amount of people describe it as anything beyond annoying or trolling.

It's a QOL change not a major issue. But, I mean there's a whole patch getting dedicated to QOL changes and bug fixes. I think that's a pretty good time to address frequent quality of life requests.

The most frequent I have seen (I don't support all of them, just reporting the ones I remember seeing most)

*Better searchable guild traders
*Separate queue for dlc and base game dungeons
*Hiding summons blocking crafting tables
*All-in-one crafting table for homes (coming in Q3)
*Searchable crafting stations and ways to track which recipes are known
*More item slots in houses (current known stance is impossible due to tech reasons)
*Toggle for mudballs
*A fix for the lead situation in treasure maps
*Better rewards from playing the game instead of crown store
*Stackable treasure maps
*Better separation of face cosmetics and more skimpy outfits

I'm sure there are some frequent ones I'm forgetting, but these are the ones that spring immediately to mind because I've seen them so often.

Really good list, thank you for sharing! Honestly, if mud balls are really negatively impacting people - like what Silverbride said about preventing them from accessing a lockbox - then hell yeah, report that punk because I'm pretty sure that kind of behavior does violate the TOS.

But changing the whole game because of something that's annoying - I dunno, where does that stop, and who is to say what is or isn't annoying - pretty sure more people have issues with radiant apex mounts and other visual/audio effects than mud balls. It sounds like a slippery slope.

Honestly, I wasn't really caring too much about mud balls to begin with - I think it's extremely silly (enter Throws-Wet-Dirt) - but when people start acting like it's violating their "rights", or comparing it to actual physical assault (which I can assure you, from personal experience - is nothing even remotely like being hit with a mud ball in ESO) that's when I started to take a stance and put my foot down.

That being said, I still think it might be a more complicated problem to solve (the mud balls), and a toggle may not be as straight-forward... but only ZOS knows for sure.

spartaxoxo · July 2023

rootkitronin wrote: »

Really good list, thank you for sharing! Honestly, if mud balls are really negatively impacting people - like what Silverbride said about preventing them from accessing a lockbox - then hell yeah, report that punk because I'm pretty sure that kind of behavior does violate the TOS.

But changing the whole game because of something that's annoying - I dunno, where does that stop, and who is to say what is or isn't annoying - pretty sure more people have issues with radiant apex mounts and other visual/audio effects than mud balls. It sounds like a slippery slope.

The lockbox and other issues are the reasons I think this is more deserving of a toggle than other annoyances. As I said before, I personally think the fact it's an unnecessary crowd control ability that can actually impact someone's gameplay to be of greater significance than other annoyances. Although, to be honest, I also wouldn't mind a low performance mode where all cosmetics of other players can't be seen and people are in default outfits. I think in addition to solving others being annoyed by apex mounts, it would probably improve issues with performance. I know some games have low graphic modes for that reason.

Honestly, I wasn't really caring too much about mud balls to begin with - I think it's extremely silly (enter Throws-Wet-Dirt) - but when people start acting like it's violating their "rights", or comparing it to actual physical assault (which I can assure you, from personal experience - is nothing even remotely like being hit with a mud ball in ESO) that's when I started to take a stance and put my foot down. That being said, I still think it might be a more complicated problem to solve (the mud balls), and a toggle may not be a straight-forward... but only ZOS knows for sure.

That bothered me as well, which is why I pointed out that mudballs are not inherently harassment. But, that doesn't change that mudballs are an effective tool for harassment (for those few who take things too far) because they aren't able to be opted out and they forcibly CC the target. I wouldn't really want to lose the animation, so I'd prefer a toggle. There's really nothing essential about them that this form of harassment can't just be fixed by removing the ability to use it for harassment. It's not like voice chat.

endgamesmug · July 2023

I can see the potential for trolling chests and lockboxes for sure, i just got grumpy the last time from trying to hand in my daily writ - like #$^* off already! 😆

LalMirchi · July 2023

These mementoes are part of the Jesters Festival and as such should only be active during the festival. However that is a much larger topic.

I'm really puzzled by the opposition to a simple toggle, if I do not want to take part in this questionable "fun" activity should I be able to opt-out or not?

defcon.dealer1b14_ESO · July 2023

Another option would be to make those a cosmetic thing only, that doesn't come with making the toon do any sort of animation when hit.

whitecrow · July 2023

To be honest, I thought there already was a toggle. Every once in a while I get the message "that is not a valid target" or something along those lines. The player does not seem to be doing anything in particular, just standing there.

SpacemanSpiff1 · July 2023

absolutely not. how else would i let people know that i'm attention starved?