Opt out Mudballs/Pie

Braffin · July 2023

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Also, I gotta say, throwing a mudball at someone isn't harassment. It's only harassment if the person asks you to stop or obviously doesn't want to participate and you keep hitting them with it. While I support a toggle, I think it's important to remember that mudballs are a part of the game. People aren't harassing anyone because they want to play the game as it's designed.

They definitely should have a toggle for people who don't want to opt in. But there's also people who quite enjoy it, and a lot of fun, spontaneous fun to be had with them. These are social tools to have fun with friends and break ice with strangers. The guild I have been in the longest? I joined because of a spontaneous mudballs fight. The guild leader didn't want to be mudballed and asked she not be, so I didn't mudball her again. Her officers on the other hand got into a big mudball battle with me and my friend. We all had a good time tossing mudballs and discussing fashion. They asked me to join their guild and I did and I've been a member for years now.

A toggle aides both the groups of players who just want to be able to enjoy some silly fun and the people who hate them. The ones that enjoy throwing them can be more sure that the people they can throw them are at the least indifferent or maybe even enjoy them. And the ones that don't like them don't have to deal with it. Win, win.

You're right of course. Nonetheless I don't see the need for a toggle for this comparatively minor issue. As you say for yourself, if anyone is using this mementos to actively harass other players, we already have an established way of reaction: First ask them to stop, after that report them. Otherwise the occassional mudball/cake doesn't any consistent harm to anybody.

It's a shared world in the end, having to deal with other players around (and their divergent interpretations of fun) is part of that reality.

spartaxoxo · July 2023

Braffin wrote: »

It's a shared world in the end, having to deal with other players around (and their divergent interpretations of fun) is part of that reality.

It's an interrupt that doesn't serve a balance purpose and frustrates some users. I think that makes it worthy of an opt-out toggle, personally. I personally enjoy them, but I can understand why others don't.

AzuraFan · July 2023

SilverBride wrote: »

I'd like to opt out of all things that can be done to my character without my permission.

Yes, please. Including having heals and other abilities cast on me in town.

rootkitronin · July 2023

I think I'm going to have to make more of an effort to throw mudballs going forward.

Might even have to make a whole character dedicated to the craft... most likely an Argonian (Throws-Wet-Dirt), though a Wood Elf could work too.

I would try an Imga, but there may be some concern that what they're tossing isn't mud. Plus, that race hasn't be released yet, which definitely makes things more difficult.

Maybe a deranged High Elf that worships Peryite... so many ideas to try out.

Thank you for this!

Braffin · July 2023

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

It's a shared world in the end, having to deal with other players around (and their divergent interpretations of fun) is part of that reality.

It's an interrupt that doesn't serve a balance purpose and frustrates some users. I think that makes it worthy of an opt-out toggle, personally. I personally enjoy them, but I can understand why others don't.

Well, that holds true for almost every interaction/memento/emote/pet/mount/etc. in social hubs.

Sure, nothing wrong with a toggle, I don't oppose the idea in general. But I think there are more urgent matters, which are to be solved with a toggle before these minor inconveniences should be adressed. At the current state of the game it's simply a waste of development resources.

Kendaric · July 2023

Braffin wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

It's a shared world in the end, having to deal with other players around (and their divergent interpretations of fun) is part of that reality.

It's an interrupt that doesn't serve a balance purpose and frustrates some users. I think that makes it worthy of an opt-out toggle, personally. I personally enjoy them, but I can understand why others don't.

Well, that holds true for almost every interaction/memento/emote/pet/mount/etc. in social hubs.

Sure, nothing wrong with a toggle, I don't oppose the idea in general. But I think there are more urgent matters, which are to be solved with a toggle before these minor inconveniences should be adressed. At the current state of the game it's simply a waste of development resources.

It's not a minor inconvenience for a lot of people. And since ZOS will hopefully work on some QoL features in addition to bug fixes, it's worth to remind them of what would be a nice QoL feature.

Braffin · July 2023

Kendaric wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

It's a shared world in the end, having to deal with other players around (and their divergent interpretations of fun) is part of that reality.

It's an interrupt that doesn't serve a balance purpose and frustrates some users. I think that makes it worthy of an opt-out toggle, personally. I personally enjoy them, but I can understand why others don't.

Well, that holds true for almost every interaction/memento/emote/pet/mount/etc. in social hubs.

Sure, nothing wrong with a toggle, I don't oppose the idea in general. But I think there are more urgent matters, which are to be solved with a toggle before these minor inconveniences should be adressed. At the current state of the game it's simply a waste of development resources.

It's not a minor inconvenience for a lot of people. And since ZOS will hopefully work on some QoL features in addition to bug fixes, it's worth to remind them of what would be a nice QoL feature.

As it's worth to remind them that a lot of people don't care about mudballs at all and have other priorities.

rootkitronin · July 2023

Kendaric wrote: »

It's not a minor inconvenience for a lot of people.

I shudder to imagine what those people consider a major inconvenience to be... the horror.

spartaxoxo · July 2023

Kendaric wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

It's a shared world in the end, having to deal with other players around (and their divergent interpretations of fun) is part of that reality.

It's an interrupt that doesn't serve a balance purpose and frustrates some users. I think that makes it worthy of an opt-out toggle, personally. I personally enjoy them, but I can understand why others don't.

Well, that holds true for almost every interaction/memento/emote/pet/mount/etc. in social hubs.

Sure, nothing wrong with a toggle, I don't oppose the idea in general. But I think there are more urgent matters, which are to be solved with a toggle before these minor inconveniences should be adressed. At the current state of the game it's simply a waste of development resources.

It's not a minor inconvenience for a lot of people. And since ZOS will hopefully work on some QoL features in addition to bug fixes, it's worth to remind them of what would be a nice QoL feature.

There's a whole patch dedicated to Quality of Life features in part because they've been neglected for years. So, I actually don't know what development resources would be getting wasted working on this. It's just going to be a different quality of life feature if not this one. In a never ending game there will always be balance issues, it doesn't mean that QOL features should go neglected. They set aside time working on them, and that development time is going to go to a QOL feature.

See also: being unable to search for unknown at guild traders.

Braffin wrote: »

Well, that holds true for almost every interaction/memento/emote/pet/mount/etc. in social hubs.

No, the vast majority do not have an interrupt (a form of CC) on them. The mudball actively CCs another user. I mean an interrupt in the gameplay sense, not someone disliking a visual that has absolutely zero effect on them.

Jaimeh · July 2023

Braffin wrote: »

Is this a server specific issue? I'm on pc eu and barely see anyone throwing mudballs or cakes randomly around, even in social hubs.

The only exception to that are flappysorcs which refuse to despawn their eyesore in towns. But as we're all civilized people here, I assume nobody here is practicing this form of harassment either.

Winning comment ^

rootkitronin · July 2023

"You pray for rain, then you also have to deal with mud too."
- Throws-Wet-Dirt (probably)

SilverBride · July 2023

No one would walk up to a stranger on the street and toss mud on them so why is it ok here? The person playing the character is every bit a human being as the person walking down the street.

rootkitronin · July 2023

SilverBride wrote: »

so why is it ok here?

Because it's a video game, and no one is tossing mud at the person playing the character - which is a pretty big difference.

SilverBride · July 2023

rootkitronin wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

so why is it ok here?

Because it's a video game, and no one is tossing mud at the person playing the character - which is a pretty big difference.

They are tossing mud at a character being played by a real person without their permission. By doing so they are interrupting the other player's enjoyment of the game they paid to play.

Braffin · July 2023

SilverBride wrote: »

rootkitronin wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

so why is it ok here?

Because it's a video game, and no one is tossing mud at the person playing the character - which is a pretty big difference.

They are tossing mud at a character being played by a real person without their permission. By doing so they are interrupting the other player's enjoyment of the game they paid to play.

They don't do it without permission, as they are using a memento the game itself provides in the intended way. As someone already pointed out, there is also an achievement for mudballing, so the game is encouraging this harmless little fun.

You are free to dislike that and ask them to stop.

Its_MySniff · July 2023

I guess I've been lucky, at 2400 cp plus, I hardly ever get mudballed. If so, I move on and shazaam, I'm free of mud. But yeah, a toggle would be fine. However, thousands of hours in game, I feel for those that are hounded, it just never happens to me. Just move on and I promise it'll stop. Cheers.

spartaxoxo · July 2023

SilverBride wrote: »

rootkitronin wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

so why is it ok here?

Because it's a video game, and no one is tossing mud at the person playing the character - which is a pretty big difference.

They are tossing mud at a character being played by a real person without their permission. By doing so they are interrupting the other player's enjoyment of the game they paid to play.

For the same reason I whip a ball at someone on the block and hit them, it's assault. But, if I whip a ball at someone and hit them while playing dodgeball, they're out.

And while I appreciate that it does interrupt some people's enjoyment, it also greatly increases others. I have made friends from this activity and also had great laughs with strangers who just passing through. I've had a ton of positive whispers and feedback.

There's no way to know which is which until I throw the mudball. That's one of the reasons I support a toggle. I don't want to target people who don't like being targeted anymore and I always stop when asked.

rootkitronin · July 2023

SilverBride wrote: »

They are tossing mud at a character being played by a real person without their permission. By doing so they are interrupting the other player's enjoyment of the game they paid to play.

They don't need your permission. You have no ownership over anything in ESO, your account, your character, any items purchased in the crown store - those are owned by ZOS, you have a limited license of use, that's it.

You don't have a right not to be hit by mud balls, it's part of the game's mechanics, and has been for quite some time. Can it be annoying - sure. But you seem to be trying to spin this as if it's some sort of abuse or violation of your rights, it's not. ZOS allows all players to throw and be hit by mud balls, paying or otherwise. The vast majority of the community has no problems with it - if you do, that's a you problem, not an ESO problem.

The fact that you compare your virtual character being hit by a mud ball to someone being physically assaulted in the real world not only beyond ridiculous, but it makes a mockery of serious real world issues. Despite you trying to draw comparisons, these are not the same, not even close.

If you don't like a specific player throwing mud balls at your character, if they're griefing you with them, then block them or choose not to play with them. But thinking that this needs to be made into an issue and the game needs to be changed because you don't like the way other people play it - that's entitlement at its peak.

Mud balls are a non-issue, and ZOS probably has a lot more serious issues with actual harassment, and far more significant game-impacting problems to deal with. Your character being interrupted every now and then isn't one of them.

SilverBride · July 2023

spartaxoxo wrote: »

And while I appreciate that it does interrupt some people's enjoyment, it also greatly increases others.

The player that does not find these things fun has a right to not participate. This is why we need a toggle for all the activities that affect a players' enjoyment of their game.

rootkitronin · July 2023

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

And while I appreciate that it does interrupt some people's enjoyment, it also greatly increases others.

The player that does not find these things fun has a right to not participate. This is why we need a toggle for all the activities that affect a players' enjoyment of their game.

Why do you feel you should be afforded the right to pick and choose? It's not your game, it's ZOS's, they and they alone have that right.

And as far as a toggle for all activities that "affect a player's enjoyment of their game", that would literally be everything in the game. And again, it's not their game, it belongs to ZOS.

If being hit by a mud ball every now and then is impacting your ability to enjoy the game - then maybe the problem isn't the game or the mud ball.

SilverBride · July 2023

A toggle to opt out of being an unwilling target is a quality of life feature that would enhance the enjoyment of the game for everyone who does not wish to participate in these activities.

LunaFlora · July 2023

most of the time i do not even know who threw a pie or a mudball or whatever at me. and i cannot read a nametag from far away really fast and whisper them to stop. a lot of the time i am in the menu as well.

a toggle would be really good. i do not want to be mudballed or pied.
why are there always people against toggles? it's so needlessly rude. it doesn't hurt you that somebody does not enjoy you throwing mudballs or pies at them.
if you have friends that like it, that's awesome! just do it with them.

if someone is doing it to a stranger it is rude, unless they like it but you cannot know that unless they make that clear.

everytime there's posts about toggles there's so many opposition for no good reason

merpins · July 2023

Right? They should also stop doing PVP specific events, because as a PVE player, I'm being excluded since that is content I don't want to participate in. they should also doing PVE specific events, because as a PVP player, I'm being excluded since that is content I don't want to participate in. I also shouldn't have to tip at restaurants. If you want to get paid more, get a better paying job. And I shouldn't need to pay taxes either, it's my money, why should I pay to live? They should also stop teaching that the earth is round in schools, because it can't be proven and the earth is definitely flat.

... this is pretty ridiculous sensationalism I'd say. At best this is a virtual game that has no effect on you in real life other than the fact that you paid to be here, and at worst you're getting baited by trolls. This is a non issue, and is sensationalism like the satirical examples I gave above.

spartaxoxo · July 2023

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

And while I appreciate that it does interrupt some people's enjoyment, it also greatly increases others.

The player that does not find these things fun has a right to not participate. This is why we need a toggle for all the activities that affect a players' enjoyment of their game.

Yes, that's why I agreed I think a toggle is fair and mutually beneficial. I don't have to worry about looking for signs they don't want to be mudballed and they get to enjoy the game without random CC. Everyone wins.

I'm in favor of a toggle. I don't agree that mudballs are inherently harassment and akin to hitting someone with mud IRL.

rootkitronin wrote: »

If being hit by a mud ball every now and then is impacting your ability to enjoy the game - then maybe the problem isn't the game or the mud ball.

It's a fair and reasonable QOL request. It's CC that isn't needed for balancing the game, so it's a bit different to sounds or colorful mounts or whatever else people tend to dislike.

rootkitronin · July 2023

spartaxoxo wrote: »

It's a fair and reasonable QOL request. It's CC that isn't needed for balancing the game, so it's a bit different to sounds or colorful mounts or whatever else people tend to dislike.

That's where I disagree, I don't think it's reasonable at all.

Let's look at it another way, ZOS has x amount of time and resources, and they want to distribute those across 50 to 100 QoL improvements. They are going to want to address the most critical issues first... those could be minor, but there's a good chance they'll take up a lot of resources. Beyond that, they're going to want to focus on improvements that have the best return - issues that can be easily address that will positively affect large groups of players.

This isn't either of those. It's not a critical, and while we don't have official numbers, most players don't seem to have any issues with the mud balls.

So, as someone who pays to play this game, I would much rather ZOS focus their QoL efforts on actual problems (of which their are many) and improvements that will provide a positive return for a large number of players, rather than catering to a very small group of people that lack of the maturity to cope with the odd mud ball being thrown at them from time to time.

These are grown adults making mountains out of mud balls, and it's just silly.

spartaxoxo · July 2023

rootkitronin wrote: »

Let's look at it another way, ZOS has x amount of time and resources, and they want to distribute those across 50 to 100 QoL improvements. They are going to want to address the most critical issues first.

QOL improvements, are by definition, not things of critical importance. They are small changes that generally improved the user experience. QOL changes are by definition things that do not have significant impacts on balance or performance but instead are minor things that make the game better. Things like the upcoming all-in-one crafting station, or the often requested being able to search by unknown in guild traders, etc, etc.

This change would not bump something critically important. It might delay something else of equally trivial importance.

And "this unnamed very minor issue is much more important than this other very minor issue" doesn't seem like a great reason to keep it off the "minor issues to fix when we fix minor issues" list to me, personally. I think it's reasonable that minor issues are fixed during the time period devoted to fixing minor QOL issues. That's kind of the purpose of devoting some time to QOL. To fix all the little minor things that irritate players.

And unnecessary CC annoys many players. Heck, necessary CC annoys lots of players. In Overwatch, when they moved to the sequel they gutted the amount of CC in the game. There's plenty of people that don't like CC and mudballs aren't even necessary for balance. They aren't even asking for it to be deleted, just the ability to opt out of it. Seems fair to me.

Braffin · July 2023

spartaxoxo wrote: »

rootkitronin wrote: »

Let's look at it another way, ZOS has x amount of time and resources, and they want to distribute those across 50 to 100 QoL improvements. They are going to want to address the most critical issues first.

QOL improvements, are by definition, not things of critical importance. They are small changes that generally improved the user experience. These things do no affect balance or performance but are minor things that make the game better. Things like the all-in-one crafting station, being able to search by unknown in guild traders, etc, etc.

This change would not bump something critically important.

And "this minor issue is much more important than this other minor issue" doesn't seem like a great reason to keep it off the "minor issues to fix when we fix minor issues" list to me, personally.

That's simply not true. While QoL improvements don't add anything new to the game per definition, they can indeed be of critical importance.

One example would be bugfixing, which is definitely improving gaming experience. Of course this bugs can be difficult to address (for the "stuck in combat" bug) and therefore bind substantial development resources.

Same goes for accessibility options, difficulty options, server performance and similar topics. All of that is affecting QoL.

So things have to be prioritized, and to prevent occasional mudballing isn't exceedingly important to most players, I dare to say.

spartaxoxo · July 2023

Braffin wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

rootkitronin wrote: »

Let's look at it another way, ZOS has x amount of time and resources, and they want to distribute those across 50 to 100 QoL improvements. They are going to want to address the most critical issues first.

QOL improvements, are by definition, not things of critical importance. They are small changes that generally improved the user experience. These things do no affect balance or performance but are minor things that make the game better. Things like the all-in-one crafting station, being able to search by unknown in guild traders, etc, etc.

This change would not bump something critically important.

And "this minor issue is much more important than this other minor issue" doesn't seem like a great reason to keep it off the "minor issues to fix when we fix minor issues" list to me, personally.

That's simply not true. While QoL improvements don't add anything new to the game per definition, they can indeed be of critical importance.

One example would be bugfixing, which is definitely improving gaming experience. Of course this bugs can be difficult to address (for the "stuck in combat" bug) and therefore bind substantial development resources.

Same goes for accessibility options, difficulty options, server performance and similar topics. All of that is affecting QoL.

So things have to be prioritized, and to prevent occasional mudballing isn't exceedingly important to most players, I dare to say.

The reason they called it a bug fixing and quality of life changes patch is because bug fixing is not the same thing as quality of life. Neither is accessibility options, which also has it's own term.

Quality of life changes are minor issues that may not have a big impact on performance or balance, but can have a significant impact on the user experience. They are intended to improve the usability of the game.

Braffin · July 2023

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

rootkitronin wrote: »

Let's look at it another way, ZOS has x amount of time and resources, and they want to distribute those across 50 to 100 QoL improvements. They are going to want to address the most critical issues first.

QOL improvements, are by definition, not things of critical importance. They are small changes that generally improved the user experience. These things do no affect balance or performance but are minor things that make the game better. Things like the all-in-one crafting station, being able to search by unknown in guild traders, etc, etc.

This change would not bump something critically important.

And "this minor issue is much more important than this other minor issue" doesn't seem like a great reason to keep it off the "minor issues to fix when we fix minor issues" list to me, personally.

That's simply not true. While QoL improvements don't add anything new to the game per definition, they can indeed be of critical importance.

One example would be bugfixing, which is definitely improving gaming experience. Of course this bugs can be difficult to address (for the "stuck in combat" bug) and therefore bind substantial development resources.

Same goes for accessibility options, difficulty options, server performance and similar topics. All of that is affecting QoL.

So things have to be prioritized, and to prevent occasional mudballing isn't exceedingly important to most players, I dare to say.

The reason they called it a bug fixing and quality of life changes patch is because bug fixing is not the same thing as quality of life. Neither is accessibility options, which also has it's own term.

Quality of life changes are minor issues that may not have a big impact on performance or balance, but can have a significant impact on the user experience.

That may be your personal opinion and I respect that but allow myself to oppose it.

rootkitronin · July 2023

@spartaxoxo what you consider to be minor on the front end may not be minor at all on the backend, QoL improvements aren't just limited to small scoped things. There is nothing saying that QoL improvements can't be critical or large in scope - especially when we're talking about the work that needs to go into them on the backend.

As for "this very minor issue is much more important than this other very minor issue" - that is a great reason to keep it off the minor issues to fix list. Why wouldn't you prioritize much more important minor issues or less important minor issues??

They can't fix all the issues, that will never happen. So they fix the issues that necessary, most requested, have the best work to payout ratios - if this minor issue is none of those (which it absolutely seems to be) why would they even bother? That time could be spent elsewhere.

Given that mud balls are not unique, and seem to be incorporated into a larger system that involves interactions between players, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that it's probably not as easy a resolution as many people here might be thinking - most likely, it's one aspect of a much bigger system, and as a dev, you don't want to screw around with that unless it's absolutely needed.