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The issue with Tanks and Healers

MindOfTheSwarm
MindOfTheSwarm
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1. Tanking and Healing skills in general have little value outside of PvP and Endgame Veteran content. This is mainly due to the fact that most normal content is very easy and for the rare situations things get sticky, an on demand heal is all that is needed. Especially with Oakensoul being a thing and giving you all of the tank buffs you need.

2. Healing is very dull even in endgame content as it is primarily all you are doing with a few debuffs such as off balance thrown in the mix. Some enemy applied debuffs on raid and dungeon groups that require purges and some heal skill exclusive buffs would help to make things more interesting.

3. Because tanking and healing is primarily a necessary thing in vet endgame and almost useless in any other content. Why are there dedicated skill lines for them and why are both morphs directed at fulfilling those roles? It seems a waste of skill line slots when these abilities only account for 10% of the entire content in the game. Especially when 9 times out of 10, one morph is clearly superior and more meta than the other morph. It would be interesting and useful if the community had the data on skill and morph usage so that we can see what needs changing.

Solution? I’m not certain. Perhaps a hard or veteran overworld mode.

Alternatively make healers and tanks relevant in none vet content. Because right now there is 0 point in queuing as either in anything else.
  • Mrtoobyy
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    Yes overland hard mode please!!!
  • endgamesmug
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    I just moved on from tanking and healing and am throughly enjoying dps for sometime now, its boring thankless and mostly unnecessary support roles or becoming more so as people become more knowledgeable and experienced as a whole and no longer need the safety net.
  • MidniteOwl1913
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    I enjoy healing even in normal dungeons. I would like to see the RR nerf rolled back, but I'm still at it.
    PS5/NA
  • MindOfTheSwarm
    MindOfTheSwarm
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    I enjoy healing even in normal dungeons. I would like to see the RR nerf rolled back, but I'm still at it.

    The issue is that most players can stomp through normal dungeons without a healer or a tank. Also these players will tend to exit the group if there is a dedicated healer due to it ‘being too slow’ and thus end the instance, forcing a players to queue again.

    Personally I would have certain combat buffs only available to support skills. Half the issue is that healers are basically heal bots and very little more.
  • Paramedicus
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    i dont know how this could be fixed. Overland is ez for a reason. And tbh, it is hard for me to imagine that many people would really play vet-overland mode. If they made it base-vet-hard it still would be fairly easy (thus boring). If they made it dlc-vet-hard it would get boring prettey fast (would you really play souls-like eso without good combat-mechanics??).

    people grinding vet arenas do it bacause mechas can be somewhat fun, but overland would be just enemies hitting harder. They wouldnt be able to add any cool mechs because overland is just too big.

    So idk.. maybe changing how healing skills work? Self-heals would have to be weaker and smart heals would have to be disabled (healers would have to aim/prioritize heals just like tanks need to aim/proritize taunts). They wont ever make self-heals weaker because of solor players. Disabling smart heals would require redesign of lot of harder pve content... (so in reality it isnt possible either).

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  • Araneae6537
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    Don’t change how healing works, please, although de-nerfing Radiating Regeneration would be welcome (how about instead not having a dozen of the same HoTs stackable?)

    I WOULD like to see more damage in between one-shot and tickle, so that burning through certain mechanics would be possible only with a good healer and not just huge DPS. I enjoy playing healers and that’s what I find rewarding, saving the day, enabling others to maximize their roles.

    So ideally I’d like the easiest fastest smoothest run of dungeons and arenas to be tank, healer, 2DD — not that you couldn’t do it otherwise, but it would be more grueling to avoid damaging mechanics, etc.
    Edited by Araneae6537 on March 4, 2023 2:26PM
  • MEBengalsFan2001
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    I enjoy healing even in normal dungeons. I would like to see the RR nerf rolled back, but I'm still at it.

    The issue is that most players can stomp through normal dungeons without a healer or a tank. Also these players will tend to exit the group if there is a dedicated healer due to it ‘being too slow’ and thus end the instance, forcing a players to queue again.

    Personally I would have certain combat buffs only available to support skills. Half the issue is that healers are basically heal bots and very little more.

    Almost every MMO game I have played healers have been more than a heal bot; they provided buff and debuffs.
  • mocap
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    Along with heals and some bufs, Im using Dark Conv, Proxy Det and Pulse spam with healer in vet base game dungeons. At least some fun...
  • Langeblan
    Langeblan
    Since 2014, whether in PVP or PVE, I only play as a tank or healer. This game was originally sold with the spirit of freedom where we could build our template according to our desires. In 2023, whether we are level 20 or 40k, if we do not have the right armor set, we can die in two seconds. Healers are useless because players inflict so much damage that it is impossible to keep other players alive. Conversely, some players receive almost no damage despite my 6k power stats. This game has become nonsense. We no longer know what works or not. By the way, you consider healers to have a thankless role, but some, like me, enjoy playing this role. However, these absurd updates will make me quit this game permanently. We are forced into a playstyle that we do not want to play, and we also suffer from the trolls of players who have no manners. Pressing a button to kill a player in one hit has never made you a good player.

    In other words, we have a major portion of players who just want to play in the old spirit of the game, and this new generation of players who want to optimize everything to deal maximum damage, even going as far as joining the right alliance, the right PVP guild, etc. We end up with servers where reds play against greens. Personally, I'm fed up with this game. It doesn't resemble anything anymore. Nowadays, we're forced to use certain spells, character classes, and armor sets... Have we fallen into a *** regime?

  • Soarora
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    Tanking is fun as-is, and welcome in group overland content. But there’s no point in having more than one tank. Don’t think anything would solve that.

    Healing… healing needs help. Ever since I started endgame dungeons I’ve been left out of runs until I started dpsing because of how many runs are 3 dps. I don’t think it’d be right to go back and change old content much but maybe adding more upper dps caps should be considered (newer content has cases of too much dps = too many mechanics = death. Balanced so that 2 good dps can do their thing but 3 can’t.). But something that’s really bothered me is the lack of healer mechanics. I can think of very, very few cases of dungeon healer mechanics let alone ones that are not just “heal good”. Really, the only one that comes to mind that’s not healing related is GD HM orbs. Trials are a bit better about healer mechanics.

    Scrivener Hall and Bal Sunnar spoilers
    Something I was looking specifically for in the new dungeons were healer mechanics. And I’m sad to say that the only ones I’ve found so far are an intense heal check and go stand in a circle. I believe it is possible to have a healer and dps run in SH and have the other dps and tank stay together but I don’t think that’s going to be the method people go with unless a dps doesn’t have vigor for some reason.
    PC/NA Dungeoneer (Tank/DPS/Heal), Trialist (DPS/Tank/Heal), and amateur Battlegrounder (DPS) with a passion for The Elder Scrolls lore
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  • Ishtarknows
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    Half the issue is that healers are basically heal bots and very little more.

    Really? Not sure what content you've been playing, but normal dungeons, vet base game and some earlier DLC dungeons require next to no heals so you're either DPSing or buffing in between applying HoTs.
    The more recent DLC dungeons can benefit from having a healer, but again aoe HoTs will leave you with lots of time to do damage things. Maybe you need to expand the content you're doing or add some different skills to your bar.
    For instance, I heal most dungeons on a DD spec Templar with ritual and breath of life, only changing to healer build on the last boss should I feel the group requires it and we're doing hard mode.
    Even in trials healers are buff bots more than heal bots


  • p00tx
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    If anyone is truly bored and feels healing isn't challenging, those of us in endgame PvE welcome you to join us. Healing in endgame is a lot more challenging and fun and you're responsible for a hefty amount of buffs and mechanics. The role is much more complex and you may find yourself healing, tanking, and doing damage in addition to your buff/debuff regimen.

    Also, wait until you guys see the newest dungeons coming out. Healers are DEFINITELY going to be useful there.
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  • Soarora
    Soarora
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    p00tx wrote: »
    If anyone is truly bored and feels healing isn't challenging, those of us in endgame PvE welcome you to join us. Healing in endgame is a lot more challenging and fun and you're responsible for a hefty amount of buffs and mechanics. The role is much more complex and you may find yourself healing, tanking, and doing damage in addition to your buff/debuff regimen.

    Also, wait until you guys see the newest dungeons coming out. Healers are DEFINITELY going to be useful there.

    It really depends on the content and the person. Even endgame PvE I feel is boring as a healer in many cases because we’re so left out of real mechanics and healing that feels important (ex. I did RPB Tri recently and it was awful. Couldn’t dps or dps would be too high on last boss, couldn’t heal because there’s not much to heal (edit: and of course, I only have so many buffs/debuffs I can do). I literally had to do what felt like nothing.). If I stop healing, people will drop like flies, but while I’m healing I rarely ever notice that and it makes it all feel pretty sad. But yeah, the newest 6 or so dungeons have definitely done a better job at implementing healers. I just wish we had more mechanics not directly related to healing in dungeons, like trial kite healers. Even then, I feel like dpsing vDSR awards you more mechanics than healing it.
    Edited by Soarora on March 6, 2023 6:25PM
    PC/NA Dungeoneer (Tank/DPS/Heal), Trialist (DPS/Tank/Heal), and amateur Battlegrounder (DPS) with a passion for The Elder Scrolls lore
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  • Langeblan
    Langeblan
    Half the issue is that healers are basically heal bots and very little more.

    Really? Not sure what content you've been playing, but normal dungeons, vet base game and some earlier DLC dungeons require next to no heals so you're either DPSing or buffing in between applying HoTs.
    The more recent DLC dungeons can benefit from having a healer, but again aoe HoTs will leave you with lots of time to do damage things. Maybe you need to expand the content you're doing or add some different skills to your bar.
    For instance, I heal most dungeons on a DD spec Templar with ritual and breath of life, only changing to healer build on the last boss should I feel the group requires it and we're doing hard mode.
    Even in trials healers are buff bots more than heal bots


    But we don't want to play like that... What's hard to understand?

  • Langeblan
    Langeblan
    p00tx wrote: »
    If anyone is truly bored and feels healing isn't challenging, those of us in endgame PvE welcome you to join us. Healing in endgame is a lot more challenging and fun and you're responsible for a hefty amount of buffs and mechanics. The role is much more complex and you may find yourself healing, tanking, and doing damage in addition to your buff/debuff regimen.

    Also, wait until you guys see the newest dungeons coming out. Healers are DEFINITELY going to be useful there.

    Once again, the 12-player dungeons and other new 4-player dungeons with instant death mechanics are a burden. If I want to play this type of game, I'll play World of Warcraft. In TESO, dungeons are a good time for me. I don't want to get kicked because I didn't equip set X or use spell Y. I don't want to spend four hours in a dungeon to get set Z and sell it to an NPC. I want flexibility and freedom of gameplay. I found enjoyment in TESO by playing with other players, and that applies to PvP as well. I'm tired of being a healer and seeing a player go right, another go left, and another go middle in battlegrounds. Individualism is a real poison in our societies. Since when do we have to kill 10 players in one click? Since when do we have players who resist everything and kill everyone... It's pointless and it disgusts everyone. This game has become absolutely worthless. I'll keep my last moments with a few guild players and my wife. However, patch after patch, we're becoming more and more disgusted. The developers are happy with what they've done, but in reality, they haven't understood that half of the server is just fed up with their nonsense.
  • Ishtarknows
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    Langeblan wrote: »
    Half the issue is that healers are basically heal bots and very little more.

    Really? Not sure what content you've been playing, but normal dungeons, vet base game and some earlier DLC dungeons require next to no heals so you're either DPSing or buffing in between applying HoTs.
    The more recent DLC dungeons can benefit from having a healer, but again aoe HoTs will leave you with lots of time to do damage things. Maybe you need to expand the content you're doing or add some different skills to your bar.
    For instance, I heal most dungeons on a DD spec Templar with ritual and breath of life, only changing to healer build on the last boss should I feel the group requires it and we're doing hard mode.
    Even in trials healers are buff bots more than heal bots


    But we don't want to play like that... What's hard to understand?

    So you want to be a heal bot?

    In order to need a heal bot team member the current dungeons will need rescaling to be significantly more difficult. I don't think many people want that.
  • Necrotech_Master
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    I enjoy healing even in normal dungeons. I would like to see the RR nerf rolled back, but I'm still at it.

    The issue is that most players can stomp through normal dungeons without a healer or a tank. Also these players will tend to exit the group if there is a dedicated healer due to it ‘being too slow’ and thus end the instance, forcing a players to queue again.

    Personally I would have certain combat buffs only available to support skills. Half the issue is that healers are basically heal bots and very little more.

    1 person leaving the group does not end the instance and force players to queue again
    plays PC/NA
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  • Amottica
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    With the ammount of skills we have in ESO it is hard to suggest that healing skill lines are a waste. There are plenty of skill lines.

    Anyone who has healed challenging content, especially progression, will not find it boring. It is not as simplistic as it is made to sound above. Granted, healing vAA can be boring but that old dungeon is so easy it is boring in any role.

    As a tank, I disagree with the entire statement concerning tanks. Granted, I utilize the ability we have had for years, being able to change builds on the fly. I use a build in an open world that allows me to quest easily but also has me ready to tank a WB when that type of fight presents itself.
  • bachpain
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    I do see the challenges to normal dungeons not really needing heals and people leaving, but in reality if they leave just go on and do the dungeon with 3 people. I can't remember the last time I finished a random normal on that landed on Lair of Maarselok with a full group because everyone leaves as soon as they see what dungeon it is. No big deal, whoever stays finishes it. Normal dungeons don't need all that much. If more challenge is what you want see a vet. Want more, do hard mode/no death and speed run challenges. There are many levels of difficulty already built into the game that will benefit from healing. Sure you can cheese many with 3 DPS and a competent tank, but you can also do them with 2 DPS, tank, and heals.

    I applaud the changes coming in U37 for tanks like the soft taunts on chains, and fixing some of the bugs of so called over taunting. It will make QOL of tanking WAY better. There could be some love to healing, but like was said in the newer content (especially on vet) there is a need for heals.
  • Soarora
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    Amottica wrote: »
    With the ammount of skills we have in ESO it is hard to suggest that healing skill lines are a waste. There are plenty of skill lines.

    Anyone who has healed challenging content, especially progression, will not find it boring. It is not as simplistic as it is made to sound above. Granted, healing vAA can be boring but that old dungeon is so easy it is boring in any role.

    As a tank, I disagree with the entire statement concerning tanks. Granted, I utilize the ability we have had for years, being able to change builds on the fly. I use a build in an open world that allows me to quest easily but also has me ready to tank a WB when that type of fight presents itself.

    I feel the need to say I agree mostly to provide more context to my earlier comments. Healing itself should not be changed, there ARE cases where it’s NOT boring and any more changes to healing would make the good experiences a pain. The newer dungeons, AS, vCR+3, vKA Falg HM, vMGF HM… great experiences to heal, I would heal them again.
    Progressions for sure aren’t boring either, particularly if the healer is progressing too. I speak as now, earlier in my progression as a healer nothing was boring. My boring statement is not to say there’s no good content. Just to me good non-boring healer content constitutes more than just HoTs and buff/debuff rotations. I want to burst heal, feel important, and do mechanics. Not just have any difficulty come from wrangling other players and fiddling with sets. And that’s just not a thing outside of (most, not all) HMs, AS, and vERE.

    That is to argue that healers should NOT only heal in all content. If anything, I’d support the addition of more buffs/debuffs available through the restro skill line, class abilities, global skills, anything. Less room for HoTs = more things to do. I think learning that healers are a swiss army knife and not a warm light is something many healers go through, some kicking and screaming, but it makes a world of difference doing more than just healing.
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  • Turtle_Bot
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    mocap wrote: »
    Along with heals and some bufs, Im using Dark Conv, Proxy Det and Pulse spam with healer in vet base game dungeons. At least some fun...

    I slot dark convergence and colossus/boneyard on my cro healer and as a result more often than not pulling and breach isn't required for adds so the tank can focus on survivability, keeping the boss taunted, etc.

    It's fun to provide that utility that allows for things to go much faster/smoother, especially for daily randoms where often the "tank" just has a taunt slotted and nothing to pull the adds in.

    Gets a little frustrating when the tank (especially a fake tank) gets the credit for my pulls/grouping, but oh well.
  • MindOfTheSwarm
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    I enjoy healing even in normal dungeons. I would like to see the RR nerf rolled back, but I'm still at it.

    The issue is that most players can stomp through normal dungeons without a healer or a tank. Also these players will tend to exit the group if there is a dedicated healer due to it ‘being too slow’ and thus end the instance, forcing a players to queue again.

    Personally I would have certain combat buffs only available to support skills. Half the issue is that healers are basically heal bots and very little more.

    1 person leaving the group does not end the instance and force players to queue again

    No, but if they have crown they can disband.
  • MindOfTheSwarm
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    The point about healing skills having one morph that is way better? Would it not be simpler to to just merge the morphs and then open up the other morph for something more general or casual?

    At the end of the day the original point stands. Entire skill lines that cover 10% of content when the skill line is 30% of a class, is not an even distribution of skill usage.
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