Are the initial Patrons (other than Hlaalu) useless?

bulbousb16_ESO · June 2023

Ok, so I am just a Novice in this game - and I have only played AI opponents, but I have noticed that the Patrons are all useless - other than Hlaalu, who the game revolves around. I assume this may change once I have access to more decks - but why did they release these initial decks with Patrons that no one uses?

Nestor · June 2023

I still use the original 4 Patrons.

Rouz · June 2023

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

Ok, so I am just a Novice in this game - and I have only played AI opponents, but I have noticed that the Patrons are all useless - other than Hlaalu, who the game revolves around. I assume this may change once I have access to more decks - but why did they release these initial decks with Patrons that no one uses?

Nah all the patrons are useful. Some are more niche than others, but they're all useful.

Red - That can be good to get an agent to the top of your deck for an instant play. So you gotta try to predict if sacrificing the power needed to "resurrect" the agent next turn is useful. Maybe you want to res a shield agent to block a power bomb from an enemy. Or perhaps resurrect one to setup a purple combo. Things like that.

Purple - This is really good late game. Once you've got a good deck built out and good gold generation. IF you can get a crow advantage, for example, where you have a bunch of crow cards at once. You can easily generate 20+ gold in one turn. Pop crows patron ability, that's 19 power generated.

Blue - This is a bit more niche and is good for taking out an agent without sacrificing power (and instead sacrificing gold). It can also be leveraged to deny patron wins (can't win via patron if the opponent never places down an agent). That being said, I typically don't advise using it early game. It costs so much and you want to focus on gold generation if able. Such as upgrading cards via treasury patron. If nothing else is there for you to buy.

Yellow - This one is one of my favorite. It allows you to generate power without needing power cards. I'll sometimes leverage this if I find myself behind in power generation against an opponent. As in I've got bad RNG luck and the opponent has a bunch of power generation. Knowing that it will eventually come, I'll start buying cards that I may not necessarily need. However, they have high gold costs. Which means I can use yellows patron ability to sacrifice cards every turn to generate power. Or perhaps give me that extra push during a combo I sacrifice a card to get me over 40+ (or put myself ahead above 40 that they can't catch up).

Personally, I consider Purple and Yellow to be S-Tier patrons.

Treeshka · June 2023

Patrons are useful like very useful in right situations.

Some of them lose their impact effect as the game progresses but still one can achieve patron victory if you make all of them favor you in game.

For example Psijic Patron is good if you just want to get rid of an agent but you do not have any power generating cards on you. In some of my games i used this patron to get rid of an Almalexia agent to free my confined cards.

Once Crow patron can be favored you can not use it again unless it becomes neutral by your opponent. But at the late game you can generate lots of coins with certain cards. So lets say you somehow generated fifty coin in one turn. You can just turn this patron and turn all those coins minus one into power.

SeaGtGruff · June 2023

Agreed that patrons are definitely useful, although not equally so, and using them to good effect can depend on paying close attention to the situations that arise during a match and knowing when it's a good time to use a particular patron.

Also, some patrons tend to work well together, while others might not be as useful in combination with each other.

And some can act as useful counters to a patron who can become problematic if not kept in check.

bulbousb16_ESO · June 2023

Treeshka wrote: »

For example Psijic Patron is good if you just want to get rid of an agent but you do not have any power generating cards on you.

This makes good sense in theory, but the problem is that the Novice AI opponents rarely keep agents around. Basically, all they do is buy cards and Hlaalu them. Once you have this figured out, you can stay one step ahead of them and defeat them unerringly. So, the Novice game, at least, centres around Hlaalu and other patrons are almost never used.

I've just graduated to Intermediate, so we'll see if there is any difference. I've seen a few threads about how the Novice AI is a challenge - not even close.

SeaGtGruff · June 2023

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

I've seen a few threads about how the Novice AI is a challenge - not even close.

I think it can be a matter of what you've gotten used to. Once you've become very familiar with the NPCs' logic, it can be quite easy to beat them. But if you're expecting one thing and the logic has been changed to something else, they're no longer as predictable and it can be easier to lose to them.

MidniteOwl1913 · June 2023

Honestly I find blue to be the most useless (and the time wasting card moving back and forth animation annoying), or at least I did before the latest update. Now it can be important because in Necrom the NPC seems obsessed with a patron win. It's very tedious, not very much fun to play against.

And in the opposite case Hlaalu is a problem because now the NPC will just spam that every turn( throwing away useful cards to the point where it can't win). Again very beatable, but super annoying to play against.

So I use blue now even though I hate it.

tsaescishoeshiner · June 2023

Is this question about patron ability, or about the entire patron deck?

Either way, all 4 are still useful, but some of the patron powers don't come in handy as often. Such as Psijic and Pelin having no impact if there are no agents in your decks. The stronger the agents both players are using, the more helpful they are.

Converting 10-15 gold to power with Crow is a game-winner.

The cards themselves are all useful. Psijic lacks a win condition, but helps you cycle to your best cards. Not all the cards are as useful, though.

SeaGtGruff · June 2023

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

Is this question about patron ability, or about the entire patron deck?

Either way, all 4 are still useful, but some of the patron powers don't come in handy as often. Such as Psijic and Pelin having no impact if there are no agents in your decks. The stronger the agents both players are using, the more helpful they are.

Converting 10-15 gold to power with Crow is a game-winner.

The cards themselves are all useful. Psijic lacks a win condition, but helps you cycle to your best cards. Not all the cards are as useful, though.

I'm not sure what you mean by "a win condition," but it does have some cards which generate Power when comboed, as well as the ability to replace cards in the Tavern, and both of those can certainly contribute to a win.

tsaescishoeshiner · June 2023

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

Is this question about patron ability, or about the entire patron deck?

Either way, all 4 are still useful, but some of the patron powers don't come in handy as often. Such as Psijic and Pelin having no impact if there are no agents in your decks. The stronger the agents both players are using, the more helpful they are.

Converting 10-15 gold to power with Crow is a game-winner.

The cards themselves are all useful. Psijic lacks a win condition, but helps you cycle to your best cards. Not all the cards are as useful, though.

I'm not sure what you mean by "a win condition," but it does have some cards which generate Power when comboed, as well as the ability to replace cards in the Tavern, and both of those can certainly contribute to a win.

In that case, I just mean that the Psijic cards generally help you win in combination with other patron's cards, via deck manipulation. They're very useful, like you say. But if you had ONLY Psijic cards, you would have very few sources of power.

Compared to Hunding, for example, who has both cards that give you Prestige and cards that manipulate your deck.

GCJ_ · June 2023

You should be able to get a patron victory as early as 4 hands, provided you can buy an agent card with 2 power generated to hit Pelin and the npc picks up an agent by then. Hopefully the latter happens first so your Celarus advantage doesn't get negated before you get all 4 favored. I will buy cards just so that the tavern has only agent cards if I notice the npc purposely avoiding them. Eventually they will reluctantly buy one when the scores are nearing the end if this should be your situation when playing only the starting decks, or any game with blue in play. Using the Rajhin deck can make hitting Pelin much easier with its slew of 4 coin cost agents in the event your draw RNG is dead set against dealing you 6 gold generating hands regardless of how many writs you've converted because your power cards are separated and never end up together, ever!

All the patrons are useful. If you've developed a strategy that doesn't need more than one patron's favor, then awesome for you. That doesn't necessarily render the remaining patrons useless just because you and the npc opponent don't use them at all during a single round. As a general rule of thumb against npc opponents, in any turn they don't activate a patron you should try to activate one during yours to gain a 'lead' in patrons favoring you should you ever get into a back n forth swing with them. Eventually one of you will get dealt that one hand in which you cant hit it back and any of the other 3 either. Better that they're already in your favor should you find yourself in this helpless state.