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The Current State of Vet 4 Player Dungeons is becoming a SERIOUS Issue.
ElderSmitter
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Hi, everyone. This is about Vet Dungeons as Normal Dungeons is a whole nether topic. I just wanted to Say as an Experienced Tank and DPS (Not a Healer) That one of my Favorite parts of ESO is Vet Dungeons. I enjoy them way more than trials even. I am starting to see a really really bad trend that i hope ESO can find a common solution to fix down the road. Maybe raise the CP threshold i don't know.
My Problem is this. SKIPPING ADDS Dying (causing adds to lose aggro) then Fighting a Boss is becoming all too common and Lower CP Players are picking up terrible bad Habits then relying on a Higher DPS player in their group to take down the Bosses or the groups fold. A Prime Example is Graven Deep. Lesser experienced or Bad DPS barely get past the First Boss and the Tank usually does 15%+ DPS because Lower DPS Players have been taught to skip and not learn how to use their rotations properly so when they get to these higher end bosses they fail miserably. Lower end Tanks that have no survivability then also fail making the group a disaster unless it has 1 Really experienced player. Many times, i Once again have to switch from DPS to a Tank thanks to the Armory and take over just to allow 1 dps and a healer slowly get thru a boss and try to teach the other tank what he is doing wrong. Skipping 75% of the Graven Deep adds to get to First boss is a Joke. Good Groups can melt these Adds Faster than skipping and dying.
Graven Deep 2nd Boss. All Adds are Skipped almost all the time leaving many players frustrated that 1 player runs to 2nd boss then starts the fight dies and waits for everyone to Join. Then someone has to rez that person and fight the boss and sometimes they die rezzing.
3rd and Final Boss same. Someone Skips all the adds and then forces the whole to group to Die to then make it to main Boss. I refuse to DIE when i am tanking Graven Deep and can finish the main boss with 2 players if someone gets upset and quits but that is not the point. Why even Allow for such Unprofessional Dungeon Play.
ESO either needs to put in mechanics that REWARD players for Clearing adds and i do not mean 1 achievement. Maybe increase the EXP they give or Special rare drops etc etc.
Falkreath Hold i will intentionally pull all the adds that people skip when tanking because it is so frustrating when someone pulls adds while trying to skip and half the group gets killed by someone else skipping.
I Will say the newer dungeons like Scriveners Hall I hope stays this difficult because it is going to force players to learn how to play the game as a group and it does not allow for skipping other than the fun part and getting the keys.
I could go on and on but i think you get my point. I did a test once and We could Clear Fungal Grotto1 faster than a Group skipping to final boss and swimming. By the time they Rezzed and Beat Final Boss my timed Group was already at Boss and our DPS took out the Final boss faster Plus it was way more fun. I am not saying that every single add pack needs to be defeated either but the constant skipping and dying needs to stop.
Regards
ElderSmitter
Edited by ZOS_Icy on June 13, 2023 3:08PM My Problem is this. SKIPPING ADDS Dying (causing adds to lose aggro) then Fighting a Boss is becoming all too common and Lower CP Players are picking up terrible bad Habits then relying on a Higher DPS player in their group to take down the Bosses or the groups fold. A Prime Example is Graven Deep. Lesser experienced or Bad DPS barely get past the First Boss and the Tank usually does 15%+ DPS because Lower DPS Players have been taught to skip and not learn how to use their rotations properly so when they get to these higher end bosses they fail miserably. Lower end Tanks that have no survivability then also fail making the group a disaster unless it has 1 Really experienced player. Many times, i Once again have to switch from DPS to a Tank thanks to the Armory and take over just to allow 1 dps and a healer slowly get thru a boss and try to teach the other tank what he is doing wrong. Skipping 75% of the Graven Deep adds to get to First boss is a Joke. Good Groups can melt these Adds Faster than skipping and dying.
Graven Deep 2nd Boss. All Adds are Skipped almost all the time leaving many players frustrated that 1 player runs to 2nd boss then starts the fight dies and waits for everyone to Join. Then someone has to rez that person and fight the boss and sometimes they die rezzing.
3rd and Final Boss same. Someone Skips all the adds and then forces the whole to group to Die to then make it to main Boss. I refuse to DIE when i am tanking Graven Deep and can finish the main boss with 2 players if someone gets upset and quits but that is not the point. Why even Allow for such Unprofessional Dungeon Play.
ESO either needs to put in mechanics that REWARD players for Clearing adds and i do not mean 1 achievement. Maybe increase the EXP they give or Special rare drops etc etc.
Falkreath Hold i will intentionally pull all the adds that people skip when tanking because it is so frustrating when someone pulls adds while trying to skip and half the group gets killed by someone else skipping.
I Will say the newer dungeons like Scriveners Hall I hope stays this difficult because it is going to force players to learn how to play the game as a group and it does not allow for skipping other than the fun part and getting the keys.
I could go on and on but i think you get my point. I did a test once and We could Clear Fungal Grotto1 faster than a Group skipping to final boss and swimming. By the time they Rezzed and Beat Final Boss my timed Group was already at Boss and our DPS took out the Final boss faster Plus it was way more fun. I am not saying that every single add pack needs to be defeated either but the constant skipping and dying needs to stop.
Regards
ElderSmitter
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ZOS_IcymodGreetings,
After further review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic.
Thank you for your understanding.
1 -
Braffin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I assume you're talking about pug runs here, as I never witnessed such behaviour in premade groups.
As much as I can understand you anger about this practice, it's unfortunately what happens, when players are starting to do their dungeons only for the rewards, not for the gameplay itself.
Best solution is to stop pugging and go in there with trustworthy group members from your friendlist or from guilds you're in.Never get between a cat and it's candy!
---
Overland difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including One Tamriel, an overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver & Gold as a "you think you do but you don't" - tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game. I'm bored of dungeons, I'm bored of trials; make a personal difficulty slider for overland. It's not that hard.1 -
jaws343✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I am not quite sure what you are talking about regarding Fungal 1 skipping? Who is rezzing on a Fungal 1 skip? There is no possible way that you are clearing the whole dungeon in the same time it takes a group to beat only 2 bosses in the dungeon.
The first add group skip in Graven is nice as it cuts the time a bit. And again, who is dying and not just reverting to killing the adds if they aggro.
Everything else you mentioned is just speed run stuff. But also, this is the ABSOLUTE worst time to complain about Graven Deep add skipping. People are only even doing the dungeon on repeat because they are farming the Style page. And people only skip Falkreath because they are farming chests for the Mythic lead.0 -
ElderSmitter✭✭✭✭✭Yes, i Enjoy Pugging Groups. I enjoy Helping others. Pre-Made Groups i get invited to all the time as well. Point is absolutely you can make it to final boss Fungal with good dps and clear all bosses and Adds by the time people jump in the river and Swim to boss. It does not cut that much time of a run and it is so easy why Skip it to try and save what 1-2 minutes lol. You can Farm and Clear adds at the same time. Once again If you do not have the DPS and are skipping you should not be in the dungeon or do pre made skip farm groups then. I see 350 CP DPS trying to skip adds because that is what they have been taught and they have no rotation no understanding of how to deal damage and rely on Better Players to complete content because of it. I will continue to Pug and deal with it but ESO needs to look at the state of their Vet dungeons and figure it out. This is not how imo dungeons should be run. Scrivener's is a Good Start and maybe they are addressing it with newer dungeons from here on out.
Regards
ElderSmitter1 -
jaws343✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ElderSmitter88 wrote: »Yes, i Enjoy Pugging Groups. I enjoy Helping others. Pre-Made Groups i get invited to all the time as well. Point is absolutely you can make it to final boss Fungal with good dps and clear all bosses and Adds by the time people jump in the river and Swim to boss. It does not cut that much time of a run and it is so easy why Skip it to try and save what 1-2 minutes lol. You can Farm and Clear adds at the same time. Once again If you do not have the DPS and are skipping you should not be in the dungeon or do pre made skip farm groups then. I see 350 CP DPS trying to skip adds because that is what they have been taught and they have no rotation no understanding of how to deal damage and rely on Better Players to complete content because of it. I will continue to Pug and deal with it but ESO needs to look at the state of their Vet dungeons and figure it out. This is not how imo dungeons should be run. Scrivener's is a Good Start and maybe they are addressing it with newer dungeons from here on out.
Regards
ElderSmitter
But, ads do not teach rotations. So I am unsure how you think their time on the ad pull is somehow going to make a bad player suddenly good at a boss fight. And I will repeat, it is literally impossible for it to take more time skipping bosses in fungal than it is to do the whole dungeon. It is very simple math.0 -
Braffin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭ElderSmitter88 wrote: »Yes, i Enjoy Pugging Groups. I enjoy Helping others. Pre-Made Groups i get invited to all the time as well. Point is absolutely you can make it to final boss Fungal with good dps and clear all bosses and Adds by the time people jump in the river and Swim to boss. It does not cut that much time of a run and it is so easy why Skip it to try and save what 1-2 minutes lol. You can Farm and Clear adds at the same time. Once again If you do not have the DPS and are skipping you should not be in the dungeon or do pre made skip farm groups then. I see 350 CP DPS trying to skip adds because that is what they have been taught and they have no rotation no understanding of how to deal damage and rely on Better Players to complete content because of it. I will continue to Pug and deal with it but ESO needs to look at the state of their Vet dungeons and figure it out. This is not how imo dungeons should be run. Scrivener's is a Good Start and maybe they are addressing it with newer dungeons from here on out.
Regards
ElderSmitter
I get your point, and I'm also not a big fan of skipping adds, especially not by unskilled players. Indeed I avoid this type of players completely and don't care if they call me "elitist" for it anymore.
Thing is, it's legitimate to die through a dungeon and I see no way to change that without affecting everyone else. If you change dungeon rules in general all players will be affected, even if they are going in as premade farming group. If you change the rules of going in via finder, every premade using it is affected too.
But the players you're describing aren't harming me as long as I avoid playing with them. That's why I'm against a change here.
PS: We both have specific imaginations how dungeons should be done, so it's our fail if we click "random" without being willing to do so.Never get between a cat and it's candy!
---
Overland difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including One Tamriel, an overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver & Gold as a "you think you do but you don't" - tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game. I'm bored of dungeons, I'm bored of trials; make a personal difficulty slider for overland. It's not that hard.0 -
ElderSmitter✭✭✭✭✭ElderSmitter88 wrote: »Yes, i Enjoy Pugging Groups. I enjoy Helping others. Pre-Made Groups i get invited to all the time as well. Point is absolutely you can make it to final boss Fungal with good dps and clear all bosses and Adds by the time people jump in the river and Swim to boss. It does not cut that much time of a run and it is so easy why Skip it to try and save what 1-2 minutes lol. You can Farm and Clear adds at the same time. Once again If you do not have the DPS and are skipping you should not be in the dungeon or do pre made skip farm groups then. I see 350 CP DPS trying to skip adds because that is what they have been taught and they have no rotation no understanding of how to deal damage and rely on Better Players to complete content because of it. I will continue to Pug and deal with it but ESO needs to look at the state of their Vet dungeons and figure it out. This is not how imo dungeons should be run. Scrivener's is a Good Start and maybe they are addressing it with newer dungeons from here on out.
Regards
ElderSmitter
But, ads do not teach rotations. So I am unsure how you think their time on the ad pull is somehow going to make a bad player suddenly good at a boss fight. And I will repeat, it is literally impossible for it to take more time skipping bosses in fungal than it is to do the whole dungeon. It is very simple math.
Are you kidding? Running into a group of Adds without a doubt teaches rotation. By the time my DPS is at the group of add i already have 4-6 abilities running. I do not wait until i am at the adds to start using abilities. I am also not a 1 bar build or HA build so maybe you're referring to those types of builds.0 -
El_Borracho✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I tank and DD dungeons. I don't care if the adds are skipped or not, but if the plan is to skip adds to pull the group to the boss, this needs to be announced at the beginning of the dungeon run. I know skipping adds in Graven Deep and Falkreath is a common tactic, primarily because the adds are annoying. Plus, in dungeons like Falkreath, most are there to farm a gear set.
You're right, it doesn't teach mechanics. But running a random dungeon isn't about teaching mechanics. That's what guilds and/or friends are for. The random vet is about getting through a dungeon quickly with experienced players.2