Bring back inevitable det.

Lord_Invel · May 2023

Just as the title says ... can we have inevitable det be relevant again? I don't understand how we have an entire pvp skill line where inevitable detonation is not used in pvp at all and it's base tooltip is around 1800. It makes no sense to me that a single target ability with a cast time does absolutely no damage to a single target individual. Where is the risk to reward payout for casting this ability ever? Even in zergs it does absolutely no damage, so why not just remove the amount of aoe damage it does and buff it back to 12k or 13k just like curse. Make Proxy det the zerg busting ability and make inevitable det act like a sorcs curse. I think it would bring more build diversity back to classes like mag sorc since the class is pretty much straightjacketed in pvp to having one playstyle (aka spamming overload). As a mag sorc myself I don't like how overload is right now and think it should be reverted to it's old 3rd bar form but that's just a different story altogether. I still think bringing back inevitable det as a valid single target ability would make the game much more enjoyable from a mag sorc standpoint and a general gaming standpoint. Other classes can use it as well for some pretty sick combos like back in the day. I'd like to hear what other people think about this idea!

Thecompton73 · May 2023

Inevitable det has always been under used by people. I agree that nerfing the base damage was unnecessary, especially since it was Proxy Det that people would use as part of a gank/bomb against solo players, which is what got it nerfed. Sure both morphs can reach fairly high damage numbers still when they scale with 10 players and then crit. But considering how tanky groups and even most small group/solo players have become I would fully be in favor of buffing them both. 20K on a crit against a player in an organized raid only takes them to 50% as they mostly run 40K health. But then in the same global cooldown that player has enough hots tick to give it all back. Back in the day when 30K was considered high and healing wasn't hybrid taking a burst of 20K was a big deal, now it's nothing to those groups.
Going back to my sentiment that it's underused: despite being nerfed and the annoying cast time a large number of people spamming it on a tightly packed raid would likely be very problematic even for those that are fully optimized.
If 10-15 people were casting it on them continuously it wouldn't take long before enough explosions synched to do 50-60K or even more in one global cooldown. I believe that much at once combined with all the other player damage and siege damage would likely wipe just about any group. But alas because of the long cast time Inevitable Det feels clunky to use (especially in lag) and seems so ineffective when used solo no one who tries it ever thinks it's worth the bar space and it never reaches the critical mass of people running it to do its job.

Necrotech_Master · May 2023

another reason the dmg is pitiful with it too is that many ball groups run major (and possibly minor) evasions, that is an additional 30% mitigation since this is considered an aoe, on top of whatever else they are running

Lord_Invel · May 2023

Thecompton73 wrote: »

Inevitable det has always been under used by people. I agree that nerfing the base damage was unnecessary, especially since it was Proxy Det that people would use as part of a gank/bomb against solo players, which is what got it nerfed. Sure both morphs can reach fairly high damage numbers still when they scale with 10 players and then crit. But considering how tanky groups and even most small group/solo players have become I would fully be in favor of buffing them both. 20K on a crit against a player in an organized raid only takes them to 50% as they mostly run 40K health. But then in the same global cooldown that player has enough hots tick to give it all back. Back in the day when 30K was considered high and healing wasn't hybrid taking a burst of 20K was a big deal, now it's nothing to those groups.
Going back to my sentiment that it's underused: despite being nerfed and the annoying cast time a large number of people spamming it on a tightly packed raid would likely be very problematic even for those that are fully optimized.
If 10-15 people were casting it on them continuously it wouldn't take long before enough explosions synched to do 50-60K or even more in one global cooldown. I believe that much at once combined with all the other player damage and siege damage would likely wipe just about any group. But alas because of the long cast time Inevitable Det feels clunky to use (especially in lag) and seems so ineffective when used solo no one who tries it ever thinks it's worth the bar space and it never reaches the critical mass of people running it to do its job.

Yeah I agree with much of what you are saying. Which is why I'm basically advocating it to behave more like sorc curse. If it has a tooltip of like 13k base damage but only does say 25%~50% of that 13k as aoe damage ... then it wouldn't have that much of a problem with respect to raid groups. Sorc curse isn't much of a problem so I don't see how making inevitable det closer to a sorc's curse would be a problem either. I think it would be more balanced if proxy has really high aoe damage but low single target damage whereas inevitable det damage should be high with respect to single targets but it's aoe damage lower with respect to larger groups. With this change it would make inevitable det a viable option for solo pvp or small group and it wouldn't be abused by zergs.

Lord_Invel · May 2023

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

another reason the dmg is pitiful with it too is that many ball groups run major (and possibly minor) evasions, that is an additional 30% mitigation since this is considered an aoe, on top of whatever else they are running

Yes I agree with that observation as well. There really is not that much of a valid reason as to why inevitable det should have such a low tooltip since most aoe damage is successfully mitigated by cp and shuffle. Making inevitable det how it was the old way wouldn't really hurt zergs honestly. But I still think inevitable det should have high single target damage and lower aoe damage ... whereas proxy det should have high aoe damage and low single target damage. A 13k to 14k base tooltip for inevitable det would be great where it only does around a 25%~50% damage increase with each target in its area and about a 7k to 8k proxy det tooltip where it does around 50%~100% damage increase per person in its area. I'm just throwing out percentages as an example not as an actual percentage for which I am advocating.

YandereGirlfriend · May 2023

Wait, why are people advocating to buff this ability?

Proxy is a high-risk and high-reward ability - you have to physically PUT YOURSELF into the middle of a hostile group in order to actually have it hit for meaningful damage.

On the other hand, Inevitable is a low-risk and lower-reward. And that is fine. You can cast it from 35 meters away and be at no risk whatsoever from those that you cast it on.

Yet those in this thread want to make it low-risk and high-reward? That makes no sense at all and just seems like a bid to reward low effort play. If you want to deal big damage then go and actually work for it.

Also, for those comparing Inevitable to Curse and talking about AOE damage - I must remind you that the AOE portion of Curse is a measly 5 meters. That is functionally useless in wide-open Cyrodiil. And if you gave Inevitable high single-target damage, that scales, all in a relatively giant 8-meter radius... Sorcerers would be more than justified in looking around and feeling VERY BAD about how their own class ability was just stolen and then giga-buffed by a class-agnostic skill line. So much for incentivizing classes to use their own skills....

That said, I can agree with removing the cast time because in 2023 NO ABILITY should have a cast time.

Lord_Invel · May 2023

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Wait, why are people advocating to buff this ability?

Proxy is a high-risk and high-reward ability - you have to physically PUT YOURSELF into the middle of a hostile group in order to actually have it hit for meaningful damage.

On the other hand, Inevitable is a low-risk and lower-reward. And that is fine. You can cast it from 35 meters away and be at no risk whatsoever from those that you cast it on.

Yet those in this thread want to make it low-risk and high-reward? That makes no sense at all and just seems like a bid to reward low effort play. If you want to deal big damage then go and actually work for it.

Also, for those comparing Inevitable to Curse and talking about AOE damage - I must remind you that the AOE portion of Curse is a measly 5 meters. That is functionally useless in wide-open Cyrodiil. And if you gave Inevitable high single-target damage, that scales, all in a relatively giant 8-meter radius... Sorcerers would be more than justified in looking around and feeling VERY BAD about how their own class ability was just stolen and then giga-buffed by a class-agnostic skill line. So much for incentivizing classes to use their own skills....

That said, I can agree with removing the cast time because in 2023 NO ABILITY should have a cast time.

No, that isn't how sorcs would feel because if inevitable det were to return then it would be similar to curse and sorcs can stack curse and inevitable det like they used to do back in the day. Instead of having a spammable sorcs would line up a burst combo and have more build diversity in that regards. And I already said that inevitable det should have high single target damage and low aoe damage whereas proxy det should have low single target damage but high aoe damage. So I don't think you're concerns and criticisms are valid because I wasn't advocating for a lazy playstyle. I even stated in previous comments that inevitable det should have around a 13k tooltip but only do like 25% of that damage as aoe damage that way it doesn't wipe out zergs an incentivize laziness. And the risk to casting inevitable det is you are caught in a cast time so there is a risk to using it in a 1v1 or a small group scenario.

MindOfTheSwarm · June 2023

Remove the cast time, buff the base damage and reduce or remove the scaling with extra targets. This would make Proxy Det the group killer, while Inevitable Det would be the pressure tool for single targets.

Lord_Invel · June 2023

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Remove the cast time, buff the base damage and reduce or remove the scaling with extra targets. This would make Proxy Det the group killer, while Inevitable Det would be the pressure tool for single targets.

Honestly ... I agree 100 percent with you haha

Iriidius · June 2023

Actually both morphs are intended for bombing and deal the same dmg, They both have the same base dmg tooltip and scaling. The cast time doesnt matter that much because the skill is precast and delayed anyway and never gets interrupted when used right and unlike dizzy you also dont get time to react. It doesnt make a difference if you keep or remove it except in heavy lag when the cast time gets much longer or the skill doesnt cast at all.
The low single target dmg is intended because it is a tool for bombing and not for single target ganking or bursting. Maybe it could also be buffed a bit, but I definitely dont want the scaling to be reduced. When you hit deto in a 20man stack then it should hit really hard because stacking is an error and zerging is bad for pvp if you dont fight other zergs.
Proxy deto is for meele bomb, while inevitable deto is for range bomb.

TybaltKaine · June 2023

The double-edged sword here is if they buff it to make it ideal in PVP, it will be abused in PVE (see Plaguebreak) which will lead to it getting nerfed again until it is useless in both.

I do think that there needs to be some consideration given that it is a PVP skill intended to be used in PVP situations, and should be balanced for that, but short of disabling skills from the Assault and Support lines in PVE (which would eliminate Warhorn and Barrier from Trial use and basically make some content unplayable on the high end), I can't really see it becoming viable anytime soon.

Maybe have it only work in PVP by assigning the Battle Spirit modifier and then cranking the damage, but that seems to be beyond the scope of adjustments for whatever reason, despite it being a simple fix for a TON of issues in terms of PVP/PVE balancing.

Lord_Invel · June 2023

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Remove the cast time, buff the base damage and reduce or remove the scaling with extra targets. This would make Proxy Det the group killer, while Inevitable Det would be the pressure tool for single targets.

Honestly ... I agree 100 percent with you haha

Iriidius wrote: »

Actually both morphs are intended for bombing and deal the same dmg, They both have the same base dmg tooltip and scaling. The cast time doesnt matter that much because the skill is precast and delayed anyway and never gets interrupted when used right and unlike dizzy you also dont get time to react. It doesnt make a difference if you keep or remove it except in heavy lag when the cast time gets much longer or the skill doesnt cast at all.
The low single target dmg is intended because it is a tool for bombing and not for single target ganking or bursting. Maybe it could also be buffed a bit, but I definitely dont want the scaling to be reduced. When you hit deto in a 20man stack then it should hit really hard because stacking is an error and zerging is bad for pvp if you dont fight other zergs.
Proxy deto is for meele bomb, while inevitable deto is for range bomb.

we understand that they are both intended to be bomb type skills to help against zergs... but what I'm saying and many posters are saying is the single cast ability should do high single target damage with low aoe damage and the melee version should do high aoe damage but low single target damage.

JerBearESO · June 2023

Could simply increase its tooltip greatly and reduce it's scaling per target aspect. I would love to see this morph become relevant

tsaescishoeshiner · June 2023

I think it should be given more features to make it a better tool to group players up and deal damage. Maybe a smaller explosion with a brief snare before the big one? Or a "ring" effect that damaged people when they cross it (like some dremora have). Something that required players to react.

Or, it could be changed to a big slow projectile that deals damage when it lands—think Flare, but with a boom at the end that scales with the number of players hit.

Also, the cast time should go. Since it's meant for high-density fights, the cast would frequently stop, go longer than 1 second, double-cast, or not even start for me when I used to use it. Maybe it's better now with the server refresh.