Strong disagree, at least for heights. Why? Well, because most people seem to min height ("cuteness factor") or max height (so puddles don't = swimming) so you'd just get a whole lot of 8 foot tall players.

Body shape size, yeah I don't care I didn't know that those were different per race. I guess fat distribution and bone shape could differ but still would make sense to let them all be any shape.

Credible_Joe wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Strong disagree, at least for heights. Why? Well, because most people seem to min height ("cuteness factor") or max height (so puddles don't = swimming) so you'd just get a whole lot of 8 foot tall players.

Body shape size, yeah I don't care I didn't know that those were different per race. I guess fat distribution and bone shape could differ but still would make sense to let them all be any shape.

With what I proposed you wouldn't be able to make anything taller than an altmer, but you would be able to make nords or orcs as tall. Or, almost that tall, if we would have to find a midpoint.

Like, maxing out an altmer slider on a bosmer makes a dunmer sized elf. That sort of thing.

Altmer are like 8 feet tall if my memory serves right and nords have the same sliders. I do wish we could make taller Khajiit though.

Such a change would force viewing and in many cases altering motifs and costume designs due to clipping. Since there needs to be a limit somewhere it makes sense to leave the sliders as they are.

I think I didn't convey this correctly. Probably from the title. I should have said "Expand racial body slide constraints"

I'm not saying we should remove the limits entirely. That would produce clipping issues and be entirely too wild for the stability of the aesthetic.

I'm saying we should expand the sliders to encompass the limits of every race for any character, not just your chosen race.

So if you want to make an orc the size of a bosmer, you could. They wouldn't be as short or as thin, but you could get close. Or, if you wanted a taller argonian, you'd be able to approach the nord & altmer height limit. But not exceed it.

This would go for body morphs as well; for instance, nords and orcs are allowed to be a lot heavier than every other race. So the only hefty characters you see are nords and orcs. Inversely, the limit to how thin you can make them puts them at average bulk compared to bretons and dunmer.

All cosmetic meshes already have morphs for the whole range I'm proposing, so that wouldn't be an issue.

Credible_Joe wrote: »

I think I didn't convey this correctly. Probably from the title. I should have said "Expand racial body slide constraints"

I'm not saying we should remove the limits entirely. That would produce clipping issues and be entirely too wild for the stability of the aesthetic.

I'm saying we should expand the sliders to encompass the limits of every race for any character, not just your chosen race.

So if you want to make an orc the size of a bosmer, you could. They wouldn't be as short or as thin, but you could get close. Or, if you wanted a taller argonian, you'd be able to approach the nord & altmer height limit. But not exceed it.

This would go for body morphs as well; for instance, nords and orcs are allowed to be a lot heavier than every other race. So the only hefty characters you see are nords and orcs. Inversely, the limit to how thin you can make them puts them at average bulk compared to bretons and dunmer.

All cosmetic meshes already have morphs for the whole range I'm proposing, so that wouldn't be an issue.

I have not read other posts but I did not expect you meant to get rid of them altogether since that would clearly be impossible. 1-millimeter tall characters and others that go through the top of the sky are not something I expected you thought should be possible.

However, clipping issues can easily still occur within the suggested possibilities you are mentioning here.

Even then, Zenimax chose the limitations of the height sliders so that each race fell within their parameters of what each race should look like which is also likely includes the designs for each race across the multiple TES games we have enjoyed over the years.

As such, it would not make sense to make the change lore wise let alone all the additional work that would be required to redesign armor motifs and costumes to prevent clipping with changes to the height sliders.

I for one would like more options in body shapes.

I tried to make a muscular female orc, but the triangle slider basically just added muscle definition when moving between Thin and Muscular. In comparison the male orc adds a lot bulk when moving the slider to Muscular, which is what I would have liked.

This feels like a very artificial limitation. I feel like they mixed up the body shape and muscle definition and for some reason came to different conclusions between male and female.

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

I don't think this should be a thing, nor is it a needed change in the game, for several reasons.

1. The constraints for motifs and the base meshes they are designed on are already made to fit the current body types available. Creating the largest (fattest) character available already causes huge issues with clipping and distortion, floating belts, and other problems. (These issues can also sometimes be seen with gloves and shoulders on max muscle slider characters in the largest races). These problems would only be magnified if alterations were to occur to the character creator beyond what we have now, and development time would have to be put into fixing them.

Since this is already a problem with the constraints as they stand now, I don't see how this would make it worse. Again, let me reiterate, none of the current maximums or minimums would be altered. Height ceiling & floor, the tallest altmer and shortest bosmer. Body morph limits, the fattest orc and thinnest bosmer. Allowing other races to be tall, short, fat, or thin won't exacerbate the clipping issues already present in a handful of cosmetics.

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

2. Changes to character creators never end well for already existing characters. Often times, you cannot just change a character creator without altering the parameters of whatever already exists, effectively destroying many peoples characters they have worked hard on and played for years. I have seen changes to character creators that have made it impossible to make a character look like "themselves" again. No, a free character alteration voucher is not a good enough band-aid to fix this.

This is a fair point, but there are solutions to it. Quick and dirty solution is to only apply the new sliders to new characters. There are ways to maintain a legacy system while rolling out an updated version. We're also assuming the relative slider values are married to your character's current appearance. It could very well be that those are just data points that tell the character creator what positions to be in when using a token. In this case it would affect your appearance, but only for body, and only when you use an appearance change token.

Ultimately speculating on the technical barriers to this request (or any request) is moot since none of us are familiar with the game on a technical level (beyond UI and the API). We could presume any problem and solution back and forth forever, probably without ever getting close to how the system actually works.

That being said, if your assumption is correct and there isn't a way to implement this without borking everyones' character, then obviously, yes, don't bother. That's for the devs to assess, if they decide to engage with this at all.

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

3. PVP. In games where extreme alteration of characters occur, PVP players will often make the smallest, thinnest possible character in order to make themselves difficult to target with skills that have to be manually aimed. The character creator should allow nothing shorter than the shortest bosmer, and nothing thinner than what we already have to avoid exploits.

Since this request isn't about extreme characters, this point is moot. I've reiterated several times already that the request is for allowing access to the current minimums and maximums for every race, nothing beyond what's currently possible. There wouldn't be anyone shorter or smaller than the shortest, smallest bosmer.