Request for Developer input on the state of Dragonknight class imbalance

SandandStars · May 2023

Hello @ZOS_GinaBruno and @ZOS_Kevin,

There are a number of threads on various forums here that express concern over the imbalanced state of the Dragonknight class. The general consensus is that the class is so overpowered it has led to a lack of class diversity, and also significantly diminished the ability of other classes to viably compete (in PVP, for example).

Without getting into the weeds on specific adjustments to consider, I would simply like to ask:

1) Does the Combat Development Team agree that the Dragonknight class is significantly more powerful than other classes?

2) If yes, does the Combat Development Team view this as a problem?

To clarify #2: Many players may assume that closely balanced classes are a desirable end-goal the team is striving for, as this would lead to good class diversity, hence a dynamic and fun gaming experience. But perhaps the Combat Development Team views this differently, and has a different goal in mind? If so, it would be really helpful to understand the team's thinking.

Thanks so much for all the great work you do! I really appreciate the dedication and skill that goes into crafting such a beautiful game with an expansive, detailed, lore-rich world!

Heresyall · May 2023

Agreed

Kusto · May 2023

Maybe devs are playing DK.

bachpain · May 2023

This thread makes me giggle.

Wikter_Bravo · May 2023

Yet I see more mag sorcs and wardens in PvP

I_killed_Vivec · May 2023

Yeah... check out the number of flappy and ask yourself why, if DK is so overpowered, pet sorc HA is so prevalent.

SandandStars · May 2023

@I_killed_Vivec - If you are suggesting that a Pet Sorc is more overpowered than a DK, I respectfully disagree.

Perhaps we are thinking of different contexts? When I play battlegrounds with experienced players, DKs are clearly the most popular class, and also have no trouble killing Pet Sorcs. In fact, I consider Magsorc and Necromancer to be the least powerful classes in PvP at the moment.

Maybe you’re seeing some less experienced players in Cyrodiil?

Afterip · May 2023

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

Yeah... check out the number of flappy and ask yourself why, if DK is so overpowered, pet sorc HA is so prevalent.

Apparently, you have not yet met Stamdotsorcs with vateshran/ master duals and marselok. After these guys, HA Magsorcs with pets will seem quite balanced

But DK can kick both their asses. I saw some of good skilled DKs, who literally IMMORTAL and could solo fight vs enemy team and win.

Turtle_Bot · May 2023

Wikter_Bravo wrote: »

Yet I see more mag sorcs and wardens in PvP

You're seeing more HA petsorcs and HA wardens in PvP because it's midyear mayhem and all the PvE players are currently in PvP zones to get the event tickets (and they are bringing their PvE characters because that's what they have to play).

I have yet to see a HA build get a kill outside of using the unintended interaction of tri-focus on NPCs in IC zones, so they can't be doing that well, despite how many of them have left PvE zones to participate in the PvP event.

Wikter_Bravo · May 2023

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Wikter_Bravo wrote: »

Yet I see more mag sorcs and wardens in PvP

You're seeing more HA petsorcs and HA wardens in PvP because it's midyear mayhem and all the PvE players are currently in PvP zones to get the event tickets (and they are bringing their PvE characters because that's what they have to play).

I have yet to see a HA build get a kill outside of using the unintended interaction of tri-focus on NPCs in IC zones, so they can't be doing that well, despite how many of them have left PvE zones to participate in the PvP event.

Not really, I also didn't say HA Builds because that's not what I mean. Maybe you haven't been playing cyro much, but most of the organised groups I seen and know use Sorcs, Wardens and Templars. You do get a few groups of DK's with the same build (Corro, Sea Serpent), but I've seen more 40k health wardens than DKs. Yeah, some changes to DK were not needed, but most of these builds can be countered.

Beffagorn · May 2023

There's a reason why nobody that has any input in game balance at ZoS ever reads these forums and threads like these are why.

Same old "nerf X" thread without understanding that except corrosive armor, dk has nothing to do with with it's perceived overperformance. You nerf corrosive armor the next meta is going to be Warden/Stamsorc like the last 5 times this exact same scenario happened, but do go ahead.

Just prepare yourself because, when the abomination that is Corrosive Armor is gone, the exact same builds will still be meta. Except this time they'll be lightning or frost flavored instead poison and fire and then the cycle will begin anew.

SandandStars · May 2023

I think it’s more complex than simply Corrosive, but if you read my original post, you’ll see I wasn’t asking for any specific nerfs.

The questions are asking for the Combat Dev Team’s vision of class balance.

This, for me, is a larger and more interesting issue than “getting into the weeds on specific adjustments to consider.”

Turtle_Bot · May 2023

Wikter_Bravo wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Wikter_Bravo wrote: »

Yet I see more mag sorcs and wardens in PvP

You're seeing more HA petsorcs and HA wardens in PvP because it's midyear mayhem and all the PvE players are currently in PvP zones to get the event tickets (and they are bringing their PvE characters because that's what they have to play).

I have yet to see a HA build get a kill outside of using the unintended interaction of tri-focus on NPCs in IC zones, so they can't be doing that well, despite how many of them have left PvE zones to participate in the PvP event.

Not really, I also didn't say HA Builds because that's not what I mean. Maybe you haven't been playing cyro much, but most of the organised groups I seen and know use Sorcs, Wardens and Templars. You do get a few groups of DK's with the same build (Corro, Sea Serpent), but I've seen more 40k health wardens than DKs. Yeah, some changes to DK were not needed, but most of these builds can be countered.

Not sure which server you play on, but on PC EU, most of the ball groups I've encountered are, 1 cro (convergence colossus + res ulti) or a dedicated RoA NB/DK/sorc, 1-2 sorc (negate + streak bot), 1 plar (cleanse/heal bot), 1 warden healer (toughness buff and best group healing) + a bunch of spin to win NBs and DKs (with 1 DK usually being the main synergy user and first or second into the dump spot as or behind the RoA/streak/convergence user since the DK gets the benefit of corrosive buffed synergies/spin to win and huge mitigation to tank any counter play thrown at the dump spot).

As for my comment, I was referring more towards solos/small scales and generally unorganized groups/zergs of random players, not organized groups who will always optimize the best combination of every class to get the most out of the group. I also mentioned HA builds and pet builds since those are the most common magsorc builds I have seen for the types of players I was referring to with my comment.

As for the sorcs I have seen that are solo/small scale players, majority of them have been stamina (bow) proc-sorcs, very few actual magsorcs have been running around for quite a while now (this data is from my last few sessions in Cyrodiil, the most recent is about 12 hours ago).
I saw, at most, 4 actual magsorcs across my entire last session in Cyrodiil (roughly 5 hours of playing about 12 hours ago) that were not HA builds in the middle of zergs (and Malcolm and myself accounted for 2 out of those 4 magsorcs).
The other sorcs I saw that entire time playing that were not myself or Malcolm were:
- 2 magsorcs (1 was another good player, the other was average at best and was only killing questers in bruma)
- 1 sorc between the 2 ball groups that were running at that time that was being used to counter negate enemy dumps or streak stun through the ulti dump spot (mostly streak since reds had the only 2 ball groups up at that time).
- The rest of the non-HA sorcs I saw (about 5) were stamina (bow) proc sorcs being ran by small scalers.

Wikter_Bravo · May 2023

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Wikter_Bravo wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Wikter_Bravo wrote: »

Yet I see more mag sorcs and wardens in PvP

You're seeing more HA petsorcs and HA wardens in PvP because it's midyear mayhem and all the PvE players are currently in PvP zones to get the event tickets (and they are bringing their PvE characters because that's what they have to play).

I have yet to see a HA build get a kill outside of using the unintended interaction of tri-focus on NPCs in IC zones, so they can't be doing that well, despite how many of them have left PvE zones to participate in the PvP event.

Not really, I also didn't say HA Builds because that's not what I mean. Maybe you haven't been playing cyro much, but most of the organised groups I seen and know use Sorcs, Wardens and Templars. You do get a few groups of DK's with the same build (Corro, Sea Serpent), but I've seen more 40k health wardens than DKs. Yeah, some changes to DK were not needed, but most of these builds can be countered.

Not sure which server you play on, but on PC EU, most of the ball groups I've encountered are, 1 cro (convergence colossus + res ulti) or a dedicated RoA NB/DK/sorc, 1-2 sorc (negate + streak bot), 1 plar (cleanse/heal bot), 1 warden healer (toughness buff and best group healing) + a bunch of spin to win NBs and DKs (with 1 DK usually being the main synergy user and first or second into the dump spot as or behind the RoA/streak/convergence user since the DK gets the benefit of corrosive buffed synergies/spin to win and huge mitigation to tank any counter play thrown at the dump spot).

As for my comment, I was referring more towards solos/small scales and generally unorganized groups/zergs of random players, not organized groups who will always optimize the best combination of every class to get the most out of the group. I also mentioned HA builds and pet builds since those are the most common magsorc builds I have seen for the types of players I was referring to with my comment.

As for the sorcs I have seen that are solo/small scale players, majority of them have been stamina (bow) proc-sorcs, very few actual magsorcs have been running around for quite a while now (this data is from my last few sessions in Cyrodiil, the most recent is about 12 hours ago).
I saw, at most, 4 actual magsorcs across my entire last session in Cyrodiil (roughly 5 hours of playing about 12 hours ago) that were not HA builds in the middle of zergs (and Malcolm and myself accounted for 2 out of those 4 magsorcs).
The other sorcs I saw that entire time playing that were not myself or Malcolm were:
- 2 magsorcs (1 was another good player, the other was average at best and was only killing questers in bruma)
- 1 sorc between the 2 ball groups that were running at that time that was being used to counter negate enemy dumps or streak stun through the ulti dump spot (mostly streak since reds had the only 2 ball groups up at that time).
- The rest of the non-HA sorcs I saw (about 5) were stamina (bow) proc sorcs being ran by small scalers.

I am sorry, but that's not what I see. My whole point is that people are complaining about DK's, those asking for flat out nerfs or ridiculous changes have no idea that there are worse things currently out there than DK.

Weckless · May 2023

Beffagorn wrote: »

There's a reason why nobody that has any input in game balance at ZoS ever reads these forums and threads like these are why.

Same old "nerf X" thread without understanding that except corrosive armor, dk has nothing to do with with it's perceived overperformance. You nerf corrosive armor the next meta is going to be Warden/Stamsorc like the last 5 times this exact same scenario happened, but do go ahead.

Just prepare yourself because, when the abomination that is Corrosive Armor is gone, the exact same builds will still be meta. Except this time they'll be lightning or frost flavored instead poison and fire and then the cycle will begin anew.

If you think corrosive is the only thing dks have [snip]

[edited for baiting]

NordSwordnBoard · May 2023

Beffagorn wrote: »

There's a reason why nobody that has any input in game balance at ZoS ever reads these forums and threads like these are why.

Same old "nerf X" thread without understanding that except corrosive armor, dk has nothing to do with with it's perceived overperformance. You nerf corrosive armor the next meta is going to be Warden/Stamsorc like the last 5 times this exact same scenario happened, but do go ahead.

Just prepare yourself because, when the abomination that is Corrosive Armor is gone, the exact same builds will still be meta. Except this time they'll be lightning or frost flavored instead poison and fire and then the cycle will begin anew.

Where does OP ask for a nerf to corrosive in this thread? The word corrosive is not in the OP. Same old cut and paste reaction to a nerf thread, except its not a nerf thread. It seems to be seeking explanations, and although they may not be answered directly by devs, asking them is still legitimate.

Beffagorn · May 2023

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

Where does OP ask for a nerf to corrosive in this thread? The word corrosive is not in the OP. Same old cut and paste reaction to a nerf thread, except its not a nerf thread. It seems to be seeking explanations, and although they may not be answered directly by devs, asking them is still legitimate.

OP can ask all the question he wants and hope for all the answers in the world, I am just pointing out a singular point that feigning ignorance that this thread's main cause isn't Corrosive and other "less informed" opinions about DK without even seeing the actual root problem of why DK may or may not be overperforming is just intellectual dishonesty and everyone with a braincell and the bare minimum of pvp knowledge can see through it. Not to mention that like any DK OP thread this too will degenerate into the same Corrosive argument if it gets traction regardless so it's better to just immediately point out the futility in thinking that this atrocious pvp meta will somehow change once that is gone.

[snip]

[edited to remove quoted content]

Turtle_Bot · May 2023

Wikter_Bravo wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Wikter_Bravo wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Wikter_Bravo wrote: »

Yet I see more mag sorcs and wardens in PvP

You're seeing more HA petsorcs and HA wardens in PvP because it's midyear mayhem and all the PvE players are currently in PvP zones to get the event tickets (and they are bringing their PvE characters because that's what they have to play).

I have yet to see a HA build get a kill outside of using the unintended interaction of tri-focus on NPCs in IC zones, so they can't be doing that well, despite how many of them have left PvE zones to participate in the PvP event.

Not really, I also didn't say HA Builds because that's not what I mean. Maybe you haven't been playing cyro much, but most of the organised groups I seen and know use Sorcs, Wardens and Templars. You do get a few groups of DK's with the same build (Corro, Sea Serpent), but I've seen more 40k health wardens than DKs. Yeah, some changes to DK were not needed, but most of these builds can be countered.

Not sure which server you play on, but on PC EU, most of the ball groups I've encountered are, 1 cro (convergence colossus + res ulti) or a dedicated RoA NB/DK/sorc, 1-2 sorc (negate + streak bot), 1 plar (cleanse/heal bot), 1 warden healer (toughness buff and best group healing) + a bunch of spin to win NBs and DKs (with 1 DK usually being the main synergy user and first or second into the dump spot as or behind the RoA/streak/convergence user since the DK gets the benefit of corrosive buffed synergies/spin to win and huge mitigation to tank any counter play thrown at the dump spot).

As for my comment, I was referring more towards solos/small scales and generally unorganized groups/zergs of random players, not organized groups who will always optimize the best combination of every class to get the most out of the group. I also mentioned HA builds and pet builds since those are the most common magsorc builds I have seen for the types of players I was referring to with my comment.

As for the sorcs I have seen that are solo/small scale players, majority of them have been stamina (bow) proc-sorcs, very few actual magsorcs have been running around for quite a while now (this data is from my last few sessions in Cyrodiil, the most recent is about 12 hours ago).
I saw, at most, 4 actual magsorcs across my entire last session in Cyrodiil (roughly 5 hours of playing about 12 hours ago) that were not HA builds in the middle of zergs (and Malcolm and myself accounted for 2 out of those 4 magsorcs).
The other sorcs I saw that entire time playing that were not myself or Malcolm were:
- 2 magsorcs (1 was another good player, the other was average at best and was only killing questers in bruma)
- 1 sorc between the 2 ball groups that were running at that time that was being used to counter negate enemy dumps or streak stun through the ulti dump spot (mostly streak since reds had the only 2 ball groups up at that time).
- The rest of the non-HA sorcs I saw (about 5) were stamina (bow) proc sorcs being ran by small scalers.

I am sorry, but that's not what I see. My whole point is that people are complaining about DK's, those asking for flat out nerfs or ridiculous changes have no idea that there are worse things currently out there than DK.

This thread isn't asking for a DK nerf though? It's asking for the devs to provide some insight into how they view DK in its current form and what they see for the class in the future due to how strong and overperforming the class currently is.

The thread is asking for the devs to provide some information into how they view all classes overall. Are the devs happy with the current state of the classes, do they see them as balanced, and if so, then an explanation as to why they think the current state is balanced is being asked for so the community can be more knowledgeable about the devs vision for the game.

Syiccal · May 2023

Corrosive is an issue but not the issue, the fact is Dk has the best sustain, best dots, best control, best aoe burst potential with out really any drawbacks..I main a templar and with little effort on a class I'm fairly new to can be more successful with less effort without even using corrosive

Tommy_The_Gun · May 2023

Tbh. The only class that maybe comes close (or 2nd) to DK is a NB, but, but....

...NB in order to play effectively requires way more skill & experience and does not forgive mistakes. Also, sometimes it is impossible to use NB's full potential as the class is very situational and you need to use moments of opportunity.

DK on the other hand is actually quite simple to play and is way more effective than NB while requiring overall lesser entry level skill & player experience and is far less situational.

...But, what I have just said does not apply to the next patch as DK is getting small buff, while NB gets a significant indirect nerf in form of detection potions being ridiculously buffed. So if you are playing a classic "stealth" NB bomber / ganker - then your playstyle will be nerfed significantly. If you are playing a brawler type of NB - then for the most part any class is better at that.

WoppaBoem · May 2023

Wikter_Bravo wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Wikter_Bravo wrote: »

Yet I see more mag sorcs and wardens in PvP

You're seeing more HA petsorcs and HA wardens in PvP because it's midyear mayhem and all the PvE players are currently in PvP zones to get the event tickets (and they are bringing their PvE characters because that's what they have to play).

I have yet to see a HA build get a kill outside of using the unintended interaction of tri-focus on NPCs in IC zones, so they can't be doing that well, despite how many of them have left PvE zones to participate in the PvP event.

Not really, I also didn't say HA Builds because that's not what I mean. Maybe you haven't been playing cyro much, but most of the organised groups I seen and know use Sorcs, Wardens and Templars. You do get a few groups of DK's with the same build (Corro, Sea Serpent), but I've seen more 40k health wardens than DKs. Yeah, some changes to DK were not needed, but most of these builds can be countered.

Corrosive has no counter, you cannot kill the DK and the DK can kill you easily. If it ends they turtle up and can do way to well get back ultimate and we go again. IT HAS NO COUNTER

WoppaBoem · May 2023

Syiccal wrote: »

Corrosive is an issue but not the issue, the fact is Dk has the best sustain, best dots, best control, best aoe burst potential with out really any drawbacks..I main a templar and with little effort on a class I'm fairly new to can be more successful with less effort without even using corrosive

I want DK's to be strong there very important and part of ESO PVP gameplay but indeed they have it all without any drawbacks and it aint right. Nerfing Corrosive would be a great start because being unkillable and very easy to kill others sums up the state of DK's actually and they cannot be so strong in survival and killing. Then again they are in a great stop but corrosive makes them very irritating. People just build for tankiness and zero pen and zero sustain bank completely on Corrosive uptime to kill. Removing this would be very good for the game. Leap is an amazing ult I want to see DK's leap again.

boi_anachronism_ · May 2023

All i can say is that as an end game player i see a shocking amount of posts on discord asking specifically for dk dps for achievement runs.

SandandStars · May 2023

@ZOS_GinaBruno & @ZOS_Kevin -- I would be really grateful to hear back on this. It seems like an important issue to a lot of players on these forums, and some insight into the Combat Developer's thoughts on this would be very much appreciated, and certainly dispel some confusion.

I know you guys are busy; I appreciate your work!