Throwing sets at the problem

Woodenplank · May 2023

ZOS Balance idea:
To prevent people from repeatedly spamming Dodge Roll with reckless abandon, a 'roll fatigue' debuff is stacked, increasing the cost of further subsequent rolls. In fact, once you get past 4 rolls in a row, we start adding 2 stacks at a time!
ZOS Balance idea:
To prevent people from repeatedly spamming Sorcerer Bolt Escape with reckless abandon, a 'bolt escape fatigue' debuff is stacked, increasing the cost of further subsequent bolt escapes.
ZOS Balance idea:
To prevent people from repeatedly casting Purge with reckless abandon, we've added a set to the game which, if your enemy happens to be using it, will immediately punish you and any innocent bystanders in your general vicinity if you use Purge or any other cleansing effect even once.

Now I know the Plaguebreak set has been discussed to death, but I promise this is only a stepping stone to adressing a larger issue.
Setting aside for the nonce the issue of attempting to fix fundamental game issues via item sets, I must say that Plague Break never even fufilled its stated purpose.
The set procs on its DoT "expiring" before the full 10 sec duration runs out, but this includes premature death, of course. Meaning that, even now after a several rounds of nerfs, the set still functions as another Vicious Death - with the added flavour of triggering off of purges as well.
Moreover, the set doesn't punish "repeatedly casting," but punishes a single cast - with immediate effect! If they truly wanted to punish excessive purging, wouldn't a more appropiate effect be something like: Leaves an irremovable DoT on enemies, lasting for 10 seconds. Whenever a cleansing effect would've removed the DoT, refresh the duration and increase damage tick by X%.
This way the set would
(A) Not be VD 2.0;
(B) actually punish multiple Purges;
(C) Not punish, say, Templars and Wardens who'd like to use their class skills without potentially nuking their own friends.

But in any case, Plaguebreak is not the problem, but a symptom of a problem. An example of ZOS' continued attempts to address central game issues - related to core mechanics - by slappin' a New-set bandaid on the issue.

MagSorcs shield stacking to point of invincibility? Introducing Shield-Breaker, for a nifty 12% extra damage vs. shields!
AoE-caps made it too hard to take on large group, and we gutted Proximity Detonation? Introducing Vicious Death! Every ally near you is now a potential bomb!
Purge-spam makes it hard to take down groups with siege and debuffs? Introducing Vicious Death with Purge-punish Plaguebreak! Every ally near you is now a potential bomb Every purging spell could kill you!
Tanks stacking seemingly infinite resistances? Turn it against them with the Hrothgarr set! And also blast nearby innocent bystanders, just because.
Not being able to Purge spam makes people complain about being bogged down with slows and roots? Introducing Snow Treaders! With Mythics™ you can disable a game mechanic of your choice!
Coordinated groups stacking too many HoTs (Echoing Vigor, Radiating Regen,...)? Well now you can have enemies drink snake venom whenever they try to heal themselves; introducing Snake In The Stars!
...

I apologize for all the drab snark of trying to make a point, but I hope the point gets across. I'm not the first to raise this issue, nor will I be the last; for the devs don't seem to learn from their mistake - that attempting to fix core issues with new item sets only ever introduces new problems. I think the issue boils down to two main points:

Balancing sets is hard -Historially counter sets have often been (A) undertuned and ineffective; or (B) overtuned and effective outside their intended use - Plaguebreak being a strong example of the latter, Hrothgarr's Chill an example of the former. PB doesn't just punish excessive Purging, but any purging. Hrothgarr's manages a decent proc vs. heavy tanks, and virtually no damage against mid-tier armors. Throw in the possibility of PVE- or PVP-oriented sets having uses in the opposite camp, and you've got a recipe for disasters.
This means that many counter sets eventually receive nerfs, spawning a whole slew of unhappy Players who golded out their sets, only to have them nerfed into the dirt later.
Sets are a random counter to a definite problem - To put it succintly; counter sets are only a problem, if you run into someone using them. No Plaguebreaks around? You can Purge to your hearts content. No Snake in the Stars? Hots stacking works as well as always. Everyone not wearing Shieldbreaker will still struggle against shields, etc. etc. Ofc, in large Cyrodiil battles the likelihood of someone wearing the counter set tends towards 100%, but it's never a gaurantee.

I believe it's high time ZOS took the scary option of changing base mechanics.

Purge being spammed? Add a Fatigue debuff, just like Roll Dodge or Bolt Escape.
Healing stacked too high? Make subsequent applications of the same ability drop effectiveness (1st Echoing Vigor is 100%, second is e.g. half of that, third even lower, and so on).
Worried about too many people in Cyrodiil stacking too close and being unkillable? Remove AoE caps (see? They already did this one. Nice change. Thank you!)
...

Don't get me wrong, I like funky sets that shake the game up a bit. But it should be an extension of game mechanics, not a half-measure attempt at fixing them.

Source for dev quote on Plaguebreak:

Similar to Dark Convergence, we targeted large groups again with this set, focusing on their ability to have numerous purges running, making locking them down and bleeding them out incredibly difficult to do. Now, larger groups must purge more carefully, running the risk of setting off ticking time bombs and having to heal up the aftermath instead of repeatedly casting it with reckless abandon.

samp curse-you-for-nerfing-our-new-favourite-set thread:

p.s. I know it's beating a dead horse at this point, but the horse keeps spitting out proc sets, so I feel it's our duty to keep making suggestions like this.

Artim_X · May 2023

Lot's of great points! Sets that affect mechanics can be interesting, but sets shouldn't be the primary solution to countering other mechanics.

Woodenplank · May 2023

Artim_X wrote: »

Lot's of great points! Sets that affect mechanics can be interesting, but sets shouldn't be the primary solution to countering other mechanics.

Exactly.
For instance a set like Mechanical Acuity flips Critical Hit considerations upside down. Because you actually want as little crit chance as possible, and stack crit damage instead.
But a Crit is still a Crit, and your best defense against Mechanical Acuity is still Critical Resistance... Same as any other crit-oriented damage build.

Necrotech_Master · May 2023

hrothgars was actually overtuned when it first came out, then they over-nerfed it after they fixed a bug with it

it originally was 26% of the sum of resistances, but had a bug where it was ignoring battle spirit

instead of fixing the bug with battle spirit and leaving it as a niche set, they nerfed it too by cutting its dmg in half (so between the bug fix and the nerf it took -75% dmg hit in pvp), which is why its rarely used nowadays

i dont think its necessarily a problem to add sets that add a niche way to play and alter a game mechanic

i will definitely agree on set balance, when something is seen as too powerful, everyone is going to use it (i would actually say the biggest offender of this in pvp is probably maras balm, which has had to get nerfed in almost every patch since it came out), i think plague is far more balanced than maras, people need to die in pvp and fights need to end instead of 20-30 min stalemates constantly that only break due to one side getting a reinforcement zerg

Finedaible · May 2023

This is primarily why I dislike this trend of adding sets to counter other sets in PvP these last two years. Plaguebreak, Dark Convergence, Nocturnal's Ploy, Hrothgar's Chill, Mara's Balm, Shellsplitter, Snake in the Stars, some of these were very problematic sets, which then required the other sets to be introduced to 'counter' them. Counters should not exist solely within set bonuses and a conditional proc, they should exist within player SKILLS (abilities) so that all players have fair access to them. The way it is now, you either take your chances you don't come across one or more of these sets (pretty rare that you don't in large-scale pvp) or you can somehow grind up and carry all the counter sets with you, which is a massive waste of time and character bag space.

Jamie_Aubrey · May 2023

Lets add "Anti ball group sets" but the ball groups end up using them anyway

Glad I play No CP and no longer have to suffer with this

Woodenplank · May 2023

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i will definitely agree on set balance, when something is seen as too powerful, everyone is going to use it (i would actually say the biggest offender of this in pvp is probably maras balm, which has had to get nerfed in almost every patch since it came out), i think plague is far more balanced than maras,

For what it's worth, when PB first came out it was near ubiquitous in every game mode. Cyrodiil zergs? Everyone got it. Cyrodiil ball groups? It was a stronger Vicious Death --> so ofc. they used it.
Battlegrounds where you'll only blast 4 people at most? --> Plaguebreak.
1v1s where it was amazing DoT pressure and also NOPE'd on Templar's Ritual or Warden Netchs? --> Plaguebreak.

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

...people need to die in pvp and fights need to end instead of 20-30 min stalemates constantly that only break due to one side getting a reinforcement zerg

I agree that time to kill could go down several notches, but I believe sets like Hrothgarr's Chill and Plaguebreak are disingenious ways of doing it. Because those sets punish/punished you for being in the vicinity of someone who screws up.

Even if you're running a lightweight build relying on speed and shields, if you happen to be within 7m of a 40k/40k tank monster when they're hit with Hrothgarr's, you're going to be hit just as hard (and won't have resistances to deal with it).
Even if you've never even unlocked the Purge Skill on your bars, and you've unslotted your Ritual of Retribution or Betty Netch or whatever, just being close to someone using a random purge can blow you up in an instant.

If ZOS wants time to kill going down, they should go to the source, rather than applying sets that may address the issue in a roundabout way. Nerf HotS stacking by nerfing the stacking of HotS, nerf Purge spam by making Purge spam too expensive to keep up, etc. etc.

Now, I won't say counter builds shouldn't exist at all, but ZOS shouldn't assume that the existence of a counter set will solve fundamental issues.
Tanks and Tank-killers should be legit PVP roles in my opinion, but Hrothgarr's was never a good solution imho: before or after nerf.

Finedaible wrote: »

This is primarily why I dislike this trend of adding sets to counter other sets in PvP these last two years. Plaguebreak, Dark Convergence, Nocturnal's Ploy, Hrothgar's Chill, Mara's Balm, Shellsplitter, Snake in the Stars, some of these were very problematic sets, which then required the other sets to be introduced to 'counter' them. Counters should not exist solely within set bonuses and a conditional proc, they should exist within player SKILLS (abilities) so that all players have fair access to them. The way it is now, you either take your chances you don't come across one or more of these sets (pretty rare that you don't in large-scale pvp) or you can somehow grind up and carry all the counter sets with you, which is a massive waste of time and character bag space.

Just my point (well; one of them).
If an organized group is aggressively Purge spamming you have to *hope* someone with Plaguebreak comes along and uses it competently. If you equip PB yourself, then you'll be missing out on some other counter set.

I also think ZOS could do more with Class abilities as well. Right now Negate is one of a kind, and nothing else really stops group bursts in the same way. But other classes should also have neat tools for PVP. A Necromancer DoT that siphons Healing Over Time buffs?
I don't know. -- I won't claim to have all the answers, of course. But I'm fairly confident adding more sets isn't it.

YandereGirlfriend · May 2023

Just want to say that there isn't any cap on AOE ability damage.

There ARE caps typically on debuffs applied by abilities (e.g. Minor Vulnerability on Lotus Fan) but that is only for the extra effect of the ability.

However, basically every heal in the game IS capped at 6 targets per tick.

Just wanting to clarify mechanics.

Woodenplank · May 2023

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Just want to say that there isn't any cap on AOE ability damage.

There ARE caps typically on debuffs applied by abilities (e.g. Minor Vulnerability on Lotus Fan) but that is only for the extra effect of the ability.

However, basically every heal in the game IS capped at 6 targets per tick.

Just wanting to clarify mechanics.

I'm well aware. When I referenced AoE caps, I was talking about the old mechanic where Area of Effect damage abilities were indeed capped at a certain max damage.
People hated it so fervently that it was eventually removed - but not before a set like Vicious Death was introduced in an attempt to mediate the issue.