Guild Discord V/C and disabilities

Ulvich · May 2023

During these past couple of weeks I have seen something that I want to share with all of you.
When I first logged on to ESO it was during BETA on November 22, 2013. On April 03, 2014 I created this account, and recently revived my original BETA account. Point being… I have been here a while.
During all these years I have seeing a growing trend and demand for guild members to use Discord and Discord voice chat. Both of which were not around in the beginning.
Two weeks ago I saw someone advertise in zone chat that they were looking for new members, and that Discord was required. I wrote them and requested an invite. I also explained that I cannot do Discord voice chat at all. They read my application and approved my terms. Last week a trial run was being planned for last night. All the while no one told me that v/c was a trial rule and that I MUST have it. After we all entered the trial I was pushed more and more to get on Discord v/c. I once again explained that I cannot use v/c. The pressure kept mounting so I just left the guild and ported out of the trial. Here is my reason: In 2016 I suffered my third lacunar stroke. That being said my hearing is almost totally gone. Being on Discord v/c would be pointless.
I do fully understand the reason behind the voice chat requirement. And it makes total sense to have everyone use it during a trial. But what do you say to someone who can’t hardly hear or hear at all? I knew full well that my toon would die at some point, but so what? I’ve died hundreds of times during these 9 years and I know I will die again.
As a guildmaster myself I require and ask absolutely NOTHING of our members. While their personal issues are their own they will forever be treated as equals. If they have problems following along then we all wait for them. We give them an opportunity to prove to themselves that they can pull through with us. That’s what makes us a guild. And what are we going to gain by kicking them or leaving them behind? Respect? Not hardly. After all, this is just a game. And for guildmasters to look down on someone in such a way is wrong beyond words. And for them to mandate v/c is a most discriminate request.
If someone has a disability we shouldn’t be looking down on them AT ALL. If you want to create a guild and help people then prove it by doing it the right way. Make your Discord v/c a high recommendation and not a deal breaking requirement.
Ironically the PvP leader from the guild I just left is totally deaf. Once I wrote the G/M and explained why I left I was asked to reconsider. I gave my word that I would at least think about it.

Katheriah · May 2023

Ulvich wrote: »

But what do you say to someone who can’t hardly hear or hear at all?

At what point in time did you point this out to the person leading the raid/asking you to join the voicechannel?

It makes no sense for someone with this disability to join a voicechannel, but they do have to know that. People can't smell it, and if you would not have this disability it would be a completely normal request.

TKo_ROUSE · May 2023

People often are requiring discord so they can communicate about trial mechs and ultimates. Call for backups if someone is dead for something like a portal mech.

I play with people who are mute who utilize sound boards. I played with people who barely speak english and sometimes we have to type things out and explain it to them so they understand. This has never been a problem. Maybe just explain to the raid lead that you are unable to hear but still happy to join discord to call out required mechs (things like siroria flare). Most raid leads would likely be completely fine with that and then type any feedback to you as necessary. I don't see why joining discord is such an unreasonable request. Most people are understanding to things like this. Also most discord raids are mainly supports and raid leads talking. Most dps sit on mute and call the very few things they have to call out if necessary. It is not like you need to engage in any big conversations or anything.

If that really is a deal breaker to you join craglorn runs. Almost never do they require jumping into a discord server.

Danikat · May 2023

I don't use voice chat either (I can hear but I'm normally in a noisy room where I can't use headphones, so I wouldn't be able to hear that and definitely couldn't talk).

If a guild says they require or recommend voice chat I don't join. If they don't say I'll ask the recruiter about it when I'm discussing joining, explain I cannot use voice chat even just to listen, and if they say it's required or most people use it I won't join.

Very occasionally I've been assured it's not required then found no one uses guild chat because they're all in Discord, and then I'll leave and find another guild. But I've also been in several guilds over the years (including 3 I'm currently in) where it's genuinely not a requirement. Occasionally a group will choose to use it, but it's up to the people in the group and whenever I've joined and someone asked if we want to use voice chat they accept it when I say I can't.

I think being up-front about it and very clear that this is not negotiable helps. Even if only because I get a straight answer and know not to waste their time or mine.

Ragnarok0130 · May 2023

"Ulvich wrote: »

I do fully understand the reason behind the voice chat requirement. And it makes total sense to have everyone use it during a trial. But what do you say to someone who can’t hardly hear or hear at all? I knew full well that my toon would die at some point, but so what? I’ve died hundreds of times during these 9 years and I know I will die again.
[snip] And for guildmasters to look down on someone in such a way is wrong beyond words. And for them to mandate v/c is a most discriminate request.
If someone has a disability we shouldn’t be looking down on them AT ALL. If you want to create a guild and help people then prove it by doing it the right way. Make your Discord v/c a high recommendation and not a deal breaking requirement.
Ironically the PvP leader from the guild I just left is totally deaf. Once I wrote the G/M and explained why I left I was asked to reconsider. I gave my word that I would at least think about it.

Discord is frequently required for veteran and veteran HM trials (not typically normal trials due to their ease) because in a trial communication is essential. When it's a guild trial run people are always in discord in my guilds even if they know the trial cold as strats may change depending on who the lead is. When my guilds fill from Crag the lead frequently states that discord is required but you do not have to speak. From a personal POV I think speaking is mandatory because during mechs when split second reactions count, or a fast res can be the difference between wiping and downing a boss nobody is reading the chat. And sometimes a raid lead may give some leeway to someone if they have a reputation for knowing the content and their role cold, but that's a one off instance that is rare in my experience.

This type of requirement is not looking down or discriminating against individuals with disabilities or phobias around socializing or speaking with strangers, it's a required tool, like addons, that are frequently also mandated for trials to ensure that the group has the best possibility of clearing the content. I've said it many times here on the forums but when you run group content it's not about you or your comfort zone or even one's disabilities - it's about the communal group experience and the success of the group goal of clearing or getting a specific achievement. If you don't like the discord requirements create your own guilds or trial group and make it optional to use as that's always an option.

Kirawolfe · May 2023

TKo_ROUSE wrote: »

If that really is a deal breaker to you join craglorn runs. Almost never do they require jumping into a discord server.

I've seen many recently (PCNA) that requested voice chat.

I'm with the first person who replied - you do have to tell the folks running it that you can't hear, otherwise they don't know.

Typing stuff that's happening into chat during a trial is really hard when it comes to the combat and alerts they're trying to convey, that's of course why they ask for VC.

What would be really nice is an add-on that takes voice input and turns it into text in its own box. It'll be interesting getting those mob names right, but this would be handy.

You can then type in the group chat box to reach people, which works just fine - something I do a lot because I'm really not the biggest fan of vc.

Ulvich · May 2023

I told them in my application that I can't use v/c. It should ended there. If it was such a big deal breaker then perhaps they should have read more closely to my terms when I applied and not wait two weeks and after we were already inside the trial.
Also, they don't need a reason why. If they can't accept the fact then they should have simply refused my application.

Ulvich · May 2023

Katheriah wrote: »

Ulvich wrote: »

But what do you say to someone who can’t hardly hear or hear at all?

At what point in time did you point this out to the person leading the raid/asking you to join the voicechannel?

It makes no sense for someone with this disability to join a voicechannel, but they do have to know that. People can't smell it, and if you would not have this disability it would be a completely normal request.

As I mentioned... I told them that Discord v/c is not an option when I first applied to the guild. I told them in the application, so they knew and yet they still accepted it.

Marcus684 · May 2023

I used to run pug groups in Cyrodiil back in the Teamspeak days and trying to type out instructions in group chat during a battle is an absolute nightmare! Voice chat removes 90% of the frustration that being a group lead has and I fully understand why many leads require it.

If people are unable or unwilling to meet a requirement for joining a group it’s up to them to address it with the lead, or find a group without that requirement.

TKo_ROUSE · May 2023

Ulvich wrote: »

I told them in my application that I can't use v/c. It should ended there. If it was such a big deal breaker then perhaps they should have read more closely to my terms when I applied and not wait two weeks and after we were already inside the trial.
Also, they don't need a reason why. If they can't accept the fact then they should have simply refused my application.

You do realize that only one guild member has to read and approve the application? That is even if they read it. Even if one person might know, it does not mean everyone else knows or that information was passed along. Often time Raid leads are different people than the guild officers and gm. Just tell the raid lead when you x up to their run. I really don't see why this is a big deal. Communicating with people solves a lot of problems.

Also what do you even mean your terms? There is no contract you guys all signed. They have no obligations towards you....

Grizzbeorn · May 2023

Ulvich wrote: »

Also, they don't need a reason why. If they can't accept the fact then they should have simply refused my application.

This bit of stubbornness is what caused all of the confusion.
If you had just told them that you have significant issues with your hearing then all of this could have been avoided.

I mean, why were you holding back, anyway?
You told everyone here on the forum the reason why, without prompting. Why couldn't you tell the guild people?

Katheriah · May 2023

The thing is, the reason does kinda matter. There's a big difference between not wanting to join voicechat (that used to be me years ago), between not being able to speak in vc but being able to listen and between having a disability which bascially destroys the use of voicechat.

You can choose to not explain why you can't join vc. They can then choose to also not put any effort into finding another way to communicate with you. Communication is key, and you will often find people more willing to compromise when you actually communicate with them instead of just dropping the 'can't join, deal with it'.

By the way, are you sure the person that asked to join vc was also the person that read and accepted your application? And why does it only work your way around, you say you can't follow their rule and they should accept that anyway. Why can you not up front accept that this guild might not be for you and apply anyway?

Dr_Con · May 2023

Players with disabilities aren't really looked down upon in the ESO community, it's the fact that certain guilds and trial groups are not ready to accommodate such players. For people who communicate exclusively over VC, it's unaccounted for. It's like having stairs to a business, what if you were around for decades and someone employs a new worker who is wheelchair-bound? There's no Big Brother to come along and say that your business needs to have a handicap-accessible ramp, so clearly you were told to go up some steps that you couldn't and you went the other way instead, rightfully upset over the situation.

The ESO community is large enough that if you can't find a place that will accept you, that you can create such a location and people will come. It's unfortunate to see that you had a bad experience, but as the "Deaf PVP leader" you mentioned would probably tell you, they don't participate in the Trial content within the same guild because they are unable meet the requirements or unwilling to. Bear in mind that player is also able to gather players for guild activities regardless of their own disability. I'm sure if they led a trial, or if you lead one, you will have your own requirements, but in combining the state of online gaming with the ease of discord, groups that communicate over in-game text only are few and far between.

spartaxoxo · May 2023

I'm always happy to accommodate anyone who has a good reason. If they have anxiety or disability, I don't mind. But, if someone is just being stubborn person who thinks my time isn't valuable (it takes up significantly more time and more odds off failure to use text chat instead) because they simply don't feel like joining, I don't accommodate that.

If you didn't tell the group you needed a accommodation, they probably thought you fell into the later category.

Trials aren't like other content. They require a good deal of communication. Voice chat massively increases odds of success and makes much less work for the trial lead.

TybaltKaine · May 2023

While I do agree that communication is essential in trials and harder content, I will disagree with the idea that it is a requirement to have voice chat or add ons, as I have seen some people mention.

I played on console for years, at a time when voice chat was straight up nonfunctioning on Xbox. My guild still cleared trials, still cleared hard modes and some of them even managed to get a few trifectas (my hands were too far gone by that point to be an active end game seeker).

They did that with in game chat, no add ons and typing things out on an Xbox controller in some cases. Let's not act like voice chat is an absolute necessity for end game. Is it a nice thing to have? Yeah, but it's not required at all.

With all that out of the way, I do think that communicating up front that you have a hearing issue would have made sure that the situation didn't escalate to the point of feeling pressured into VC, or to having to leave the guild. Sometimes our own ego gets in the way of things, even when we are in the right.

I do hope that you can take the time to maybe communicate with these people and tell them what happened to so that if they are in a similar situation in the future, they can better handle it.

We only ever improve by learning, and we only learn from each other by communicating.

Marcus684 · May 2023

TybaltKaine wrote: »

While I do agree that communication is essential in trials and harder content, I will disagree with the idea that it is a requirement to have voice chat or add ons, as I have seen some people mention.

I played on console for years, at a time when voice chat was straight up nonfunctioning on Xbox. My guild still cleared trials, still cleared hard modes and some of them even managed to get a few trifectas (my hands were too far gone by that point to be an active end game seeker).

They did that with in game chat, no add ons and typing things out on an Xbox controller in some cases. Let's not act like voice chat is an absolute necessity for end game. Is it a nice thing to have? Yeah, but it's not required at all.

With all that out of the way, I do think that communicating up front that you have a hearing issue would have made sure that the situation didn't escalate to the point of feeling pressured into VC, or to having to leave the guild. Sometimes our own ego gets in the way of things, even when we are in the right.

I do hope that you can take the time to maybe communicate with these people and tell them what happened to so that if they are in a similar situation in the future, they can better handle it.

We only ever improve by learning, and we only learn from each other by communicating.

It kinda goes beyond "nice thing to have". I personally stopped running groups because it was impossible to get pugs to join voice chat and I could not effectively play the game and type in group chat. This removed a group lead from the game. I personally can think of 4 friends and former guildies that did the same thing, so there's 5 groups leads lost. This game has a massive shortage of players willing to lead groups vs. players that want to participate, and voice chat removes one of the biggest obstacles to leading: good communication. It is an essential part of a vibrant group content scene. Is it essential for every group? Absolutely not, but if were to disappear I think we'd see a huge drop-off in game population as players left to find greener pastures.

TybaltKaine · May 2023

No one is advocating for it to disappear. I also don't think that using your own personal observations as a basis to make sweeping statements about the entire player base is helpful.

I just provided an example that showed that it isn't a necessity for everyone. If you feel that it is, then use it. I'm just saying not everyone needs to, and for a large chunk of time over on Xbox, we straight up couldn't at all. Didn't stop us from finishing up those Blackwood trials as soon as they dropped.

Different strokes for different folks.

Marcus684 · May 2023

TybaltKaine wrote: »

No one is advocating for it to disappear. I also don't think that using your own personal observations as a basis to make sweeping statements about the entire player base is helpful.

I just provided an example that showed that it isn't a necessity for everyone. If you feel that it is, then use it. I'm just saying not everyone needs to, and for a large chunk of time over on Xbox, we straight up couldn't at all. Didn't stop us from finishing up those Blackwood trials as soon as they dropped.

Different strokes for different folks.

Your opinion on the helpfulness of my comment is irrelevant. My experience is no less valid than yours.

I just wanted to highlight that being a group lead is a difficult and usually thankless job, which is made immensely easier by the use of voice chat. If group leads expend effort to include those that are unable to use all of the tools that are available, that's awesome and should be commended, but we shouldn't expect them to nor should we criticize them when they are unwilling to do so. This would most assuredly drive some away and hurt the group content scene as a whole.

TybaltKaine · May 2023

Again, no one is asking you to not use voice chat. Talking in circles accomplishes nothing, so I will disengage from this conversation.

kevkj · May 2023

I wanna point out that joining discord does not automatically equate to joining voice chat. For a lot of guilds/groups it is also their primary text channel of communication. This is where they post schedules, organize events, share boss fight image guides etc etc. It is one thing to be unable to participate in voice chat and it is another thing to not take a look at the graphics that tell you where the raid lead wants you to stand. I know, I know, there's in-game guild chat. Discord allows all this discussion to take place without being logged in which is an incredible advantage in our busy schedules.

spartaxoxo · May 2023

TybaltKaine wrote: »

I just provided an example that showed that it isn't a necessity for everyone. If you feel that it is, then use it. I'm just saying not everyone needs to, and for a large chunk of time over on Xbox, we straight up couldn't at all. Didn't stop us from finishing up those Blackwood trials as soon as they dropped.

I agree that's it not necessary for every group. I certainly think it's extremely useful for trials. I also don't blame any leads that don't want to type things out, as being able to type and monitor chat quickly isn't something many want to bother with or in some cases can even do as that type of typing speed is it's own skill. I certainly prefer VC in trials (but not guild chat). But I have also done these things successfully just typing in chat. I have also had to do that in the past for various reasons.

spartaxoxo · May 2023

kevkj wrote: »

I wanna point out that joining discord does not automatically equate to joining voice chat. For a lot of guilds/groups it is also their primary text channel of communication. This is where they post schedules, organize events, share boss fight image guides etc etc. It is one thing to be unable to participate in voice chat and it is another thing to not take a look at the graphics that tell you where the raid lead wants you to stand. I know, I know, there's in-game guild chat. Discord allows all this discussion to take place without being logged in which is an incredible advantage in our busy schedules.

Honestly on Playstation, at least the groups I have seen, discord isn't used hardly at all for voice chat. We have the PS chat as our equivalent and the game itself also has a built-in in voice chat. Discord is for things like rosters so that everyone can see who is going to raid and when, and if there are slots available at a glance. As well more general communication.

Ratzkifal · May 2023

Maybe we should get some special emotes for communication to address the problem. In League of Legends for example you have pings that can be quite informative - that is if your teammates aren't using the bait or the question mark (missing) ping to be toxic. These emotes could then have voice lines akin to those you hear during Battlegrounds while also displaying a text message in the group chat for better communication. Needless to say there would have to exist an option to mute these, preferably as a separate option from muting everything. Not sure how this would work on console but I'm sure they can figure that out.

valenwood_vegan · May 2023

I generally find the ESO community to be pretty helpful and friendly. I avoid voice chat because of social anxiety. This isn't exactly something I want to go around broadcasting to people, but when I've been upfront and explained this to people who wanted me in voice a few times, they've been very willing to accommodate me.

Of course we're not talking sweaty score-pushing groups in a vet trial here, either. I can understand why voice is highly desirable as the content gets more difficult, and if a group doesn't want me along for the ride because I won't use voice... that's fine. Just wasn't the right group for me.

Anyway, I'm sorry that the OP had to go through this experience. I would try not to dwell on it - this maybe just wasn't the right group of people. We're not all going to be compatible in how we play the game. Next guild, I would suggest if you are comfortable... trying to specifically discuss your interest in running this kind of content without voice chat with leadership / the raid lead and see if a good solution can be arranged. I sincerely hope you find people willing to run the content you want with you - there's a big community out there so keep trying!

EnerG · May 2023

As a disabled person myself I understand the feeling of "why do I need to explain" but it sounds like you're just being obstinate for the sake of it. You didn't say you're disabled in anyway just that you couldn't join, with 0 explanation. That's really rude and can really paint our whole community in a negative light man.

Amottica · May 2023

Whole discord is newish, Voip is not. A somewhat serious raiding guild will require it in many of their raids.

Unless I’m raiding something easy, that we’ve done a thousand times, I require voice. I have made one exception in my years of raiding and that was for a deaf player who would not be able to hear anyhow. She was required to know the raid well. She was able to carry her weight well. If she would have caused the group to wipe repeatedly she would have been replaced.

Hopefully you will find a guild that will work with your situation. I would not expect every guild to be willing as it has been fairly common for years, even before ESO, to require voice for any serious raiding.

Good luck.

Edit. One thing I missed, there is no mention that you tried to explain your situation or that you have done your homework to prepare for the trial. Without that I wouldn’t expect anyone to be understanding as they are not given the chance to be.

Amottica · May 2023

Ulvich wrote: »

Katheriah wrote: »

Ulvich wrote: »

But what do you say to someone who can’t hardly hear or hear at all?

At what point in time did you point this out to the person leading the raid/asking you to join the voicechannel?

It makes no sense for someone with this disability to join a voicechannel, but they do have to know that. People can't smell it, and if you would not have this disability it would be a completely normal request.

As I mentioned... I told them that Discord v/c is not an option when I first applied to the guild. I told them in the application, so they knew and yet they still accepted it.

Did you tell them why? Did you explain when they were getting ready to raid?

If the answer to either of these are no then the onus is on you.