thoughts on weaving vs. heavy attack. let's stop blaming skill and think about hardware .

Quethrosar · April 2023

So to do best dps we know we need to be able to click weapon skill and then a 1 - 5 skill or R.
I will tell you this was impossible using mouse and keyboard without a special expensive mouse. I had to buy a $90 mouse just to play good with many buttons and had to be technically literate to set it up.
I can't say with numbers what's out there, but i would assume most people have a standard 2 button mouse or one with back and forward buttons too and wheel.

If all we had to was stand still and hit 1 - 5 and left mouse button it wouldn't be as big an issue but its still an issue. As It is we need to always be moving and dodging.
This can't be done while pressing 1 - 5 at same time.

When it comes to controllers, i hate them. I bought a pc to play pc games. I did not grow up aiming on a controller. I grew up aiming a kb and mouse. I bought a pc game to play a pc game.
So again, i will not use a controller and a lot of people won't. so this again is a hardware problem.

To me the problem with ESO is you need nonstandard pc gear to play that game to potential. ESO is not accessible right now because of the bug that is animation cancelling.
HA helps this a lot without them actually fixing a bug.

So stop punishing HA people for finding a way to play without spending money on hardware.

Soarora · April 2023

Huh? I have a normal mouse and a normal keyboard and I weave and dps while moving completely fine. Only thing I've changed is I bound barswap to one of the side buttons.

FrancisCrawford · April 2023

Also, some people have short or weak thumbs.

Out of curiousity, I just googled on images of hands, and I seem to have remarkably short thumbs. I'm quite a good typist on QWERTY keyboards, and was a decent violinist growing up. But I've never mastered thumb typing on phones, and it's probably lucky I never wanted to play the piano.

Firing skills via buttons on my mouse has never worked out for me. I do fine with a few extra buttons on Logitech 300-series mice, but I've always operated them using 3 fingers only.

(I've been through a number of that series of mice because, while their durability is mediocre, they're sold cheaply enough that I don't mind buying them every few years.)

INM · April 2023

That's the first time I hear about someone with this issue and I'd been playing the game for 6 years.

Dojohoda · April 2023

I had to replace my 12 button mouse over a year ago with a different brand. The new one is a larger than my old one, not by much. Just that small size difference makes light attack weaving more difficult for me and I miss too many.

AcadianPaladin · April 2023

I've tried mice with up to 7 buttons on the side and get lost in them with more than 3. And more than about 3 will also make my thumb hurt. So I use 2 side buttons.

Some things to help keyboard and mouse movement without lotsa side button use:

Program skill keys to QWERT so they are right above where your fingers rest on the ASDF keys. Now, you can't move left and right at the same time so using the same finger for left/right is good. Assign this to the left little finger via Caps and A respectively. Similarly, you can't move forward and backward at the same time so assign those to your left thumb via the space bar and B. That eliminates the conflict between moving and casting except for the Q key so I simply choose carefully what skill goes there (like a pure passive or least cast skill).

Agenericname · April 2023

Soarora wrote: »

Huh? I have a normal mouse and a normal keyboard and I weave and dps while moving completely fine. Only thing I've changed is I bound barswap to one of the side buttons.

Same. My mouse has 2 side buttons, one of which I use to bar swap.

Ha builds do make it easier for folks to attack and move for sure, but it isnt universally impossible.

Quethrosar · April 2023

Agenericname wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Huh? I have a normal mouse and a normal keyboard and I weave and dps while moving completely fine. Only thing I've changed is I bound barswap to one of the side buttons.

Same. My mouse has 2 side buttons, one of which I use to bar swap.

Ha builds do make it easier for folks to attack and move for sure, but it isnt universally impossible.

i would challenge you to run around like a maniac, dodging, and weaving all buttons 1 - 5.

on keyboard my left hand is on WASD. pinky on shift or ctrl, thumb on space. i can't reach up holding WASD and hit the numbers keys without contorting my hand.

Agenericname · April 2023

Quethrosar wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Huh? I have a normal mouse and a normal keyboard and I weave and dps while moving completely fine. Only thing I've changed is I bound barswap to one of the side buttons.

Same. My mouse has 2 side buttons, one of which I use to bar swap.

Ha builds do make it easier for folks to attack and move for sure, but it isnt universally impossible.

i would challenge you to run around like a maniac, dodging, and weaving all buttons 1 - 5.

on keyboard my left hand is on WASD. pinky on shift or ctrl, thumb on space. i can't reach up holding WASD and hit the numbers keys without contorting my hand.

With the exception of bar swap, I already do that. Aside from PvP I really cant think of combat that's more dynamic than vet DLCs, solo arenas, and vBRP. Ive done all of those that way.

The bar swap is the only button that I have moved.

Amottica · April 2023

It’s not impossible. I have been surprised to find out some very good players used a standard mouse and keyboard. What is often referred to muscle memory olays a big role in separating out top dps from the average.

It comes down to practice to develope what is often referred to as player skill.

colossalvoids · April 2023

Reporting in, was doing just fine with cheapest possible mouse/kb for years, all manageable and just requires a bit of "skill". Only change is my mouse setup since then, and it's extra buttons are just for bash/dodge, so it's obviously easier but made no difference in performance overall.

Not everyone binds skills to 1-5 though, there are a ton of other options on KB fpr you to chose from.

BaalMelqartu · April 2023

A few months ago, I made the switch and bought a gaming mouse with buttons on the side. All my abilities, including ultimate and my bar swap are now on my mouse. I also turned off directional roll dodging in game settings and rebound ONE key for dodge as I got tired of accidentally dodging when I didn't mean to and not dodging when I wanted to, no matter how many times I tweaked the settings.

It was a rough few weeks of adjustments. Probably because I'm in my 40s and don't pick up these sort of changes as fast as I did twenty years ago. Once I was adapted to the new layout though, my survivability and ability to keep moving & dancing during combat while still using my abilities went WAY up.

The downside: it can be hard on your mouse hand. I don't know that I'll be able to maintain it 10 years from now. Hopefully! I wish I had considered the switch a year ago.

Quethrosar · April 2023

BaalMelqartu wrote: »

A few months ago, I made the switch and bout a gaming mouse with buttons on the side. All my abilities, including ultimate and my bar swap are now on my mouse. I also turned off directional roll dodging in game settings and rebound ONE key for dodge as I got tired of accidentally dodging when I didn't mean to and not dodging when I wanted to, no matter how many times I tweaked with the settings.

It was a rough few weeks of adjustments. Probably because I'm in my 40s and don't pick up these sort of changes as fast as I did twenty years ago. Once I was adapted to the new layout though, my survivability and ability to keep moving & dancing during combat while still using my abilities went WAY up.

The downside: it can be hard on your mouse hand. I don't know that I'll be able to maintain it 10 years from now. Hopefully! I wish I had considered the switch a year ago.

this is what i am talking about, i am in my 40s too. the multi button mouse was the only way i could beat Maelstrom arena.

berunhieyes · April 2023

If you're really having trouble with a standard keyboard and don't want to switch to controller, look at some of the gaming keypads. I have found the Razer Orbweaver to be close to perfection to me, with the Razar Tartarus a close second. It provides a thumstick for movement and 20 remappable buttons for your fingers and is adjustable for hand size. Unfortunately, the only source seems to be Ebay. I've gotten Orbweavers for $50, but they can go for $100 or more. The Tartarus is usually less expensive. You'll have to determine if it's worth the money, but to me, it absolutely is.

aaisoaho · April 2023

I have the cheapest possible keyboard and a mouse with 2 additional buttons on the side. One of the additional buttons I use for bash/interrupt and the second one for barswap. Moving and parsing simultaneously has not been a problem for me, like Taleria whirlwind phase for example. My skills are bound to 1-5 and ultimate at R. If I'm moving forward, my middle finger presses the W while index finger and ring finger casts the skills. If I'm moving right, my index finger presses D and other three fingers casts the skills. I use thumb only for jumping (spacebar). Essentially I just rotate my hand a bit if the content requires moving.

Skill casts and the tempo are muscle memory for me. I've practiced a fair share on dummy to get it down, so I can do it while dealing eith mechanics. Also I usually practice several hours per class per patch to get familiar with the rotation, so dealing with mechanics won't throw me off.

Zama666 · April 2023

It like playing the piano.

Practice.

Zodiarkslayer · April 2023

Quethrosar wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Huh? I have a normal mouse and a normal keyboard and I weave and dps while moving completely fine. Only thing I've changed is I bound barswap to one of the side buttons.

Same. My mouse has 2 side buttons, one of which I use to bar swap.

Ha builds do make it easier for folks to attack and move for sure, but it isnt universally impossible.

i would challenge you to run around like a maniac, dodging, and weaving all buttons 1 - 5.

on keyboard my left hand is on WASD. pinky on shift or ctrl, thumb on space. i can't reach up holding WASD and hit the numbers keys without contorting my hand.

I am lucky to have long enough fingers to use Q and E for side movement. Hitting 12345 is a only small movement of the fingers and takes small effort.

The standard cheap keyboard that came with the PC and a 12.99 mouse is all I need to be as good as I want to be.

And my hands do not hurt at all. 😁

Crow_IX · April 2023

Quethrosar wrote: »

So to do best dps we know we need to be able to click weapon skill and then a 1 - 5 skill or R.
I will tell you this was impossible using mouse and keyboard without a special expensive mouse. I had to buy a $90 mouse just to play good with many buttons and had to be technically literate to set it up.
I can't say with numbers what's out there, but i would assume most people have a standard 2 button mouse or one with back and forward buttons too and wheel.

If all we had to was stand still and hit 1 - 5 and left mouse button it wouldn't be as big an issue but its still an issue. As It is we need to always be moving and dodging.
This can't be done while pressing 1 - 5 at same time.

When it comes to controllers, i hate them. I bought a pc to play pc games. I did not grow up aiming on a controller. I grew up aiming a kb and mouse. I bought a pc game to play a pc game.
So again, i will not use a controller and a lot of people won't. so this again is a hardware problem.

To me the problem with ESO is you need nonstandard pc gear to play that game to potential. ESO is not accessible right now because of the bug that is animation cancelling.
HA helps this a lot without them actually fixing a bug.

So stop punishing HA people for finding a way to play without spending money on hardware.

It was absolutely not impossible and it was not hard at all but it was really the only thing that separated the skill gap. If you were struggling to play on a standard gaming m&kb do not assume the rest of us also struggled. I had a very basic set up and performed just fine until all these changes to the game starting with cast times and block canceling changes. After that it wasn't a matter of skill it was a matter of performance issues and then came the proc sets which just added a whole other issue onto the pile of issues that is eso.

anyways, you are absolutely wrong about everything you stated here. the game is actually in the state that it is in because of people complaining about higher skilled players being able to do what they are able to do. so they have to nerf rework and add things like proc sets that play the game for the players. so here we are.

In conclusion, eso will always be this jumbled mess of clunky mechanics and unfun build metas and that is what is making eso not accessible.

Soarora · April 2023

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Quethrosar wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Huh? I have a normal mouse and a normal keyboard and I weave and dps while moving completely fine. Only thing I've changed is I bound barswap to one of the side buttons.

Same. My mouse has 2 side buttons, one of which I use to bar swap.

Ha builds do make it easier for folks to attack and move for sure, but it isnt universally impossible.

i would challenge you to run around like a maniac, dodging, and weaving all buttons 1 - 5.

on keyboard my left hand is on WASD. pinky on shift or ctrl, thumb on space. i can't reach up holding WASD and hit the numbers keys without contorting my hand.

I am lucky to have long enough fingers to use Q and E for side movement. Hitting 12345 is a only small movement of the fingers and takes small effort.

The standard cheap keyboard that came with the PC and a 12.99 mouse is all I need to be as good as I want to be.

And my hands do not hurt at all. 😁

I have tiny hands. Like really, I have yet to find another adult with such small hands. And I can hit the regular buttons fine, granted different keyboards have different key shapes and sizes. Though I also don’t have specific fingers for each button it’s just whatever finger presses the button presses it. This includes often using my thumb to press shift for short distances (pinkie for long) which people somehow can’t understand how I do that haha.

James-Wayne · May 2023

Weaving issues for me isnt about PC hardware its always been about distance to server in America, weaving just doesnt register fast enough to the server.

ZOS said a few years ago that Australia or Oceania will never get a server but I guess we now have a mythic coming which is something

disintegr8 · May 2023

No amount of practice will improve my DPS when it can sometimes take 2 or 3 seconds for a bar swap to actually occur. Trying to run builds with different weapons on each bar I often get the message saying the skill I just used requires x/y/z weapon to be equipped.

Lag and server performance prevent me from getting really good numbers.

FrancisCrawford · May 2023

INM wrote: »

That's the first time I hear about someone with this issue and I'd been playing the game for 6 years.

If it's my post you're referring to, this is something that rarely occurs to one about oneself or others.

My short pinky finger was only pointed out by a girlfriend who happened to be both an orchestra conductor and a fellow violinist, about 9 years after I'd started playing the instrument. The realization about thumbs came to me 45 years after that.

endgamesmug · May 2023

disintegr8 wrote: »

No amount of practice will improve my DPS when it can sometimes take 2 or 3 seconds for a bar swap to actually occur. Trying to run builds with different weapons on each bar I often get the message saying the skill I just used requires x/y/z weapon to be equipped.

Lag and server performance prevent me from getting really good numbers.

1000% this this is also my reality,i very rarely see anyone mention it because seemingly everyone has perfect everything 😆

LoganEso · May 2023

Don't forget 10% of all players that are lefties (aka southpaws). There are very few mice on the market that are left-hand oriented and have additional buttons.

Do keep in mind that all these problems are common for all games. One has to adapt as one can.
Yes, ESO can be especially hard to master and gets exponentially harder with every "drawback" one has. Some can be mitigated with better hardware but game offers a lot of options like:
- comprehensive key bindings
- crafting a build that is specially suited to you (eg HA, Oakensoul ...)
- support for various addons

There are very few AAA MMORPG games that share same level of configurability.

Even though I have a couple of mentioned drawbacks, I love that this game has so many levels of skill, it's pretty deep - there is always something new to be learned, some new aspect to the game.
I know I could never win against a 20yr old kid with 6yrs+ of experience, super reflexes, long fingers and the best hardware, but I'll still try

Also less hate on HA/OS players please, you'll scare handicapped, casual and new players away. If you can't beat them with BIS, it's your lack of skill.

Try to enjoy the game.

Mesite · May 2023

I recently switched to Xbox and find the controller great except for strafing. My magblade is struggling to move as smoothly, for some reason. I'm sure it'll come with practice. I don't move as much with other classes.

jerj6925 · May 2023

More and more are running programable devices, with the click of 1 button you either start a repeating sequence until you hit the button again (animation canceling included) or just click the 1 button to set off a number of skills (animation canceling included) and just keep clicking that button each time you want to spam a set of abilities.

Zos endeavor to make combat more skilled has just made it so difficult people are just naturally gravitating to programable devices. I have watched YouTube videos where people are showing what their build can do on a trial dummy and with the click of a button they just sit back and watch as the programable device plays the game for them. Some don’t even care to hide they are cheating because they don’t see it that way anymore, for controllers they have devices for the PS and Xbox systems for a few hundred. You can create your own scripts or buy one.

This has become a real issue in PVP as wardens, dragon knights, and night blades utilize these devices for instant kills unless they are up against another player using a programable device themselves then its just who gets the script off first. It also creates a massive amount of lag as the servers are getting spammed with commands in milliseconds that the game was never designed to handle.

Programmable devices are supposed to be a violation, but the developers will ban you for name-calling, not cheating with programable devices. The only way to counter it would be to completely revamp the combat system making a programable device no longer needed or beneficial to use (and this won’t happen) or implement an in-game software way for everyone to mimic the programable devices putting everyone on an even footing… but then why play when you can push a button and put your control down and eat ice cream.

MudcrabAttack · May 2023

The timing for an input between skills is hard for some people to nail down, a new skill and light attack can be cast theoretically every 1.0 second. If a new skill / light attack happens every 1.5 seconds it’s like dealing 1/3rd less dps. If you really want to max out #skills per minute (and not break TOS) get a mouse with hypersensitive wheel detection in the up and down motions, and set up a spammable to the mouse wheel movement. When using the skill, roll the wheel for 1/3 - 1/2 second and it will que nearly perfectly at the next possible chance within the global cooldown. This way you don’t have to be exact with the timing of hitting the skill. It’s really helpful with channels and clunky weapon spammables. Simply rolling a mouse wheel up used to be pretty effective on a Templar with jabs. I think default settings for a mouse wheel signal input through the game is .03 seconds. It would probably work well with the new Velothi Amulet, as long as a light attack happens occasionally to build up ultimate.

For heavy attack weaving, it’s easy enough to hold down left mouse button the whole time while constantly rolling the mouse wheel with the other finger, and max out actions per minute with a skill like unstable wall of elements. The skill is automatically queued and cast within .03 seconds of the cast window

Years ago I really disliked using 1-5 number keys with the left hand, and just reassigned damage over time skills to the side buttons and the middle mouse-click wheel. Direct damage was assigned to mouse wheel up/down since I use them more frequently. I got used to left clicking and hitting a mouse button pretty efficiently, and my left hand is completely free to make the character walk, roll or sprint around and avoid damage

jerj6925 · May 2023

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

The timing for an input between skills is hard for some people to nail down, a new skill and light attack can be cast theoretically every 1.0 second. If a new skill / light attack happens every 1.5 seconds it’s like dealing 1/3rd less dps. If you really want to max out #skills per minute (and not break TOS) get a mouse with hypersensitive wheel detection in the up and down motions, and set up a spammable to the mouse wheel movement. When using the skill, roll the wheel for 1/3 - 1/2 second and it will que nearly perfectly at the next possible chance within the global cooldown. This way you don’t have to be exact with the timing of hitting the skill. It’s really helpful with channels and clunky weapon spammables. Simply rolling a mouse wheel up used to be pretty effective on a Templar with jabs. I think default settings for a mouse wheel signal input through the game is .03 seconds. It would probably work well with the new Velothi Amulet, as long as a light attack happens occasionally to build up ultimate.

For heavy attack weaving, it’s easy enough to hold down left mouse button the whole time while constantly rolling the mouse wheel with the other finger, and max out actions per minute with a skill like unstable wall of elements. The skill is automatically queued and cast within .03 seconds of the cast window

Years ago I really disliked using 1-5 number keys with the left hand, and just reassigned damage over time skills to the side buttons and the middle mouse-click wheel. Direct damage was assigned to mouse wheel up/down since I use them more frequently. I got used to left clicking and hitting a mouse button pretty efficiently, and my left hand is completely free to make the character walk, roll or sprint around and avoid damage

perfect example of how combat is determined not by player skill but rather player equipment. ESO should really just open the flood gates and say use what ever equipment you want to play the game.

MudcrabAttack · May 2023

jerj6925 wrote: »

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

The timing for an input between skills is hard for some people to nail down, a new skill and light attack can be cast theoretically every 1.0 second. If a new skill / light attack happens every 1.5 seconds it’s like dealing 1/3rd less dps. If you really want to max out #skills per minute (and not break TOS) get a mouse with hypersensitive wheel detection in the up and down motions, and set up a spammable to the mouse wheel movement. When using the skill, roll the wheel for 1/3 - 1/2 second and it will que nearly perfectly at the next possible chance within the global cooldown. This way you don’t have to be exact with the timing of hitting the skill. It’s really helpful with channels and clunky weapon spammables. Simply rolling a mouse wheel up used to be pretty effective on a Templar with jabs. I think default settings for a mouse wheel signal input through the game is .03 seconds. It would probably work well with the new Velothi Amulet, as long as a light attack happens occasionally to build up ultimate.

For heavy attack weaving, it’s easy enough to hold down left mouse button the whole time while constantly rolling the mouse wheel with the other finger, and max out actions per minute with a skill like unstable wall of elements. The skill is automatically queued and cast within .03 seconds of the cast window

Years ago I really disliked using 1-5 number keys with the left hand, and just reassigned damage over time skills to the side buttons and the middle mouse-click wheel. Direct damage was assigned to mouse wheel up/down since I use them more frequently. I got used to left clicking and hitting a mouse button pretty efficiently, and my left hand is completely free to make the character walk, roll or sprint around and avoid damage

perfect example of how combat is determined not by player skill but rather player equipment. ESO should really just open the flood gates and say use what ever equipment you want to play the game.

I missed how this was a complaint against equipment, although I would assume a mouse wheel is standard with a mouse.

Performance from just scrolling a mouse wheel is very far from the top, especially ever since the Templar jabs nerf. There would be no light attacks landing, no damage over time skills, no weapon glyphs getting used, no ultimate generation. Any amount of extra effort that goes into it like the application of DOT skills or weaving can only help DPS

A lot of people either love or hate the slower pace of heavy attack builds, and how 70% of a dps parse can come from holding down a left mouse button. The other 30% of a heavy attack build can come from clicking through skills while holding the left mouse button.

Skills make up a majority of a light attack build. Perhaps in the future a light attack build could involve holding down whichever button is assigned to a skill (spammable) while intermittently clicking light attacks. Mousewheel scrolling has caused rapidly repeated inputs in the game since the beginning, but they erase other inputs like light attacks