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Sorcerer heal / Twilight
VvwvenomwvV
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The sorc is a fun class to play, but it has a very annoying feature....Flappy bird A.K.A Twilight.
The sorc doesn't have a good class heal, that's just a straight heal. You have to trade this for that, or put on the bird. The Twilight is the only way to heal teammates on demand. It requires two bars ( if you run two bars ), it's HUGE, and gets in the way 99% of the time, it dies often, and takes what seems like forever to summon, especially when there is lag happening.
To make matters worse, in PvP...ughhhh...it won't stop attacking. You can recall it all you want, and it immediately goes right back into combat. Can it get worse you ask?....YES IT CAN! It won't go stealth when you use an invisibility potion. People can find you because Flappy bird is saying "Hey you all, he's over here, tee hee".
I would like to see the sorc given a class heal that can heal teammates that isn't a pet.
I would like to see the Twilight reduced in size by 500%
I would like to have the constant combat, and invisibility issues fixed.
I would like to know what some of you think about the Twilight. Do you feel how I feel about it?
The sorc doesn't have a good class heal, that's just a straight heal. You have to trade this for that, or put on the bird. The Twilight is the only way to heal teammates on demand. It requires two bars ( if you run two bars ), it's HUGE, and gets in the way 99% of the time, it dies often, and takes what seems like forever to summon, especially when there is lag happening.
To make matters worse, in PvP...ughhhh...it won't stop attacking. You can recall it all you want, and it immediately goes right back into combat. Can it get worse you ask?....YES IT CAN! It won't go stealth when you use an invisibility potion. People can find you because Flappy bird is saying "Hey you all, he's over here, tee hee".
I would like to see the sorc given a class heal that can heal teammates that isn't a pet.
I would like to see the Twilight reduced in size by 500%
I would like to have the constant combat, and invisibility issues fixed.
I would like to know what some of you think about the Twilight. Do you feel how I feel about it?
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BaalMelqartu✭✭✭✭I caved on my sorc and started using the pets because I just don't think you can get AS much damage without them. I very much do not like the sorc pets, especially flappy. They actually look like the single most dated thing in the entire game to me. The heal from flappy is amazing though.
I tried to find a link for you but had no luck locating it. a ZOS dev addressed people's desire to have better non pet options and they basically said they are considering it but no changes in this regard would happen in update 37.
1:22 into the link below, Skinnycheeks shows the Zos statement I'm alluding to, just wish I could find the source again!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwZMpvkXaLo 2 -
BaalMelqartu✭✭✭✭
Ahha, it was Kevin and here is the link to his statement regarding non pet sorc builds in the future:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/626525/pts-update-37-feedback-thread-for-combat-classes/p152 -
WittyWindwalker✭✭✭VvwvenomwvV wrote: »The sorc is a fun class to play, but it has a very annoying feature....Flappy bird A.K.A Twilight.
The sorc doesn't have a good class heal, that's just a straight heal. You have to trade this for that, or put on the bird. The Twilight is the only way to heal teammates on demand. It requires two bars ( if you run two bars ), it's HUGE, and gets in the way 99% of the time, it dies often, and takes what seems like forever to summon, especially when there is lag happening.
To make matters worse, in PvP...ughhhh...it won't stop attacking. You can recall it all you want, and it immediately goes right back into combat. Can it get worse you ask?....YES IT CAN! It won't go stealth when you use an invisibility potion. People can find you because Flappy bird is saying "Hey you all, he's over here, tee hee".
I would like to see the sorc given a class heal that can heal teammates that isn't a pet.
I would like to see the Twilight reduced in size by 500%
I would like to have the constant combat, and invisibility issues fixed.
I would like to know what some of you think about the Twilight. Do you feel how I feel about it?
The pets could definitely have a look at for sure. Not sure what the answer is here. If the sorc still had a third bar, it might help make up for the difference in having to run one pet on both bars. I know I miss that. The clanfear is about useless and dies even more than the twilight. The scamp, if not run properly, annoys tanks immensely.*Windwalkers*We are 100% committed to these principles:RespectIntegrityGuild UnityWe are a close band of gaming friends who are committed to excellence in these principles, free from discrimination and bias of race, creed, color, religion, sexual identity, gender, national origin, ethnicity, and social-economic status. Our principles define us, and our freedoms are not exhaustive.https://twitch.tv/wittywindwalker0 -
Caribou77✭✭✭✭✭I pvp a lot, and Sorc healing is a huge weakness, and imbalance compared to any other class with a reliable burst heal. As OP noted, the Matriarch (bird) is the ONLY source of viable healing. Dark Conversion is too slow and too weak, having a full 1-second cast time, and unlike other class's heals, it does not scale so remains at a lackluster 5000 in pvp w/battlespirit.
I know a lot of stamsorcs who double heal with vigor and dc, which is fine, if you're a StamSorc. If you like to play MagSorc, the bird is your only heal option, and when it's killed (which all good pvp'rs do, immediately) you're dead. It takes a full 4 seconds to resummon the damned thing and you get locked into the summoning animation, so you pretty much have to hide to do it. Unworkable.
I'm in a guild that PvPs a lot, and virtually every Sorc is a StamSorc that used Master's Wep Dual Wield. They all hit hurricane, haunting curse, crystal frag (if it procs) then streak in and spam Dual Wield (Blood Craze + Whirling Blades X20).
This is what they do, over and over again, to be effective on (Stam) Sorc. And it's fairly effective. But very repetitive and boring.
If you want to be a MAGsorc, and not rely on Stamina Weapon spammables, your options are trash.
So, any time someone suggests changes/improvements to Sorc, I feel it's critical to clarify MAGSORC, as it is a completely different class to play than Stamsorc.
Before some helpful fellow gamer replies “Hybrid, dude, get gud, learn to play": I'm fully aware that grabbing a pair of maces (Masters Twin Slashes) and some medium armor would make me MUCH MORE competitive in pvp. But I want to play a MageSorc, and according to the "Core Values" of ESO, I should be able to do that effectively.
PLEASE GIVE MAGSORC A HEAL THAT SCALES WITH SPELL DAMAGE, IS INSTANT BURST, AND CANNOT BE KILLED.
So Magsorc can be at least in the ballpark of parity with other strong classes right now (LOOK at the healing on NB, DK, and Warden, for God's sake....)Edited by Caribou77 on March 31, 2023 8:32PM1 -
maxjapank✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭In general, classes only have access to one burst heal and its single target and directional. Sorcs have access to a burst heal that not only heals 3 (if you include the pet), but will heal in a 360 degree radius. Yes, it takes two bars, but it is also much stronger considerably. I would be happy to make the pet smaller, but asking for another burst heal, when you can also heal from just attacking from range, and another channel heal that returns resources is unnecessary.2 -
Ascarl✭✭✭✭✭I am fine with the mechanics but flappy is the most dated praphic model and far too big.4 -
Caribou77✭✭✭✭✭I would gladly either lose the bird's 360/group heal, or lose the bird altogether, in exchange for a reliable burst heal (single target) that is fast enough to be effective in PVP.
The main problem with Matriarch being Sorc's one source of burst heal, is that good players kill it instantly, and re-summoning it just isn't going to happen in PVP.2 -
VvwvenomwvV✭✭✭✭I would gladly either lose the bird's 360/group heal, or lose the bird altogether, in exchange for a reliable burst heal (single target) that is fast enough to be effective in PVP.
The main problem with Matriarch being Sorc's one source of burst heal, is that good players kill it instantly, and re-summoning it just isn't going to happen in PVP.
This is 100% true.1 -
maxjapank✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I would gladly either lose the bird's 360/group heal, or lose the bird altogether, in exchange for a reliable burst heal (single target) that is fast enough to be effective in PVP.
The main problem with Matriarch being Sorc's one source of burst heal, is that good players kill it instantly, and re-summoning it just isn't going to happen in PVP.
You would gladly, but others wouldn't. I'm sure others would also enjoy being able to self-heal by attacking from range, too. You can also heal the pet, too. But in the end, every class should have its strengths and weaknesses. I say enough to making everything so homogenous.1 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭PLEASE GIVE MAGSORC A HEAL THAT SCALES WITH SPELL DAMAGE, IS INSTANT BURST, AND CANNOT BE KILLED.
Personally, I like having a targetable pet. So many players don't use tab targeting, and I'd rather my pet take that Leap or Meteor than me. They make good blockers, if you know how to use them and keep them alive. And if you think that's not the case, then consider that ZOS made werewolf pets untargetable after years of complaints by PvPers who didn't like the doggos getting in the way. So we are lucky that our sorc pets are still useable for defense.
I do agree, however that a mini twilight would be better than the current sized one. Less visual clutter is a good thing.
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Caribou77✭✭✭✭✭Well Max, we can agree to disagree. I also don’t want classes homogenized, but Magsorc’s healing options, imo, are a significant factor in it being C tier at the moment.
MS has plenty of other weaknesses to keep it unique, and far from overpowered…0 -
Faulgor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭As far as Sorcerer healers go, Power Surge also sucks. RNG on top of a 3 second delay is just not fun.Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.1 -
Turtle_Bot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I would gladly either lose the bird's 360/group heal, or lose the bird altogether, in exchange for a reliable burst heal (single target) that is fast enough to be effective in PVP.
The main problem with Matriarch being Sorc's one source of burst heal, is that good players kill it instantly, and re-summoning it just isn't going to happen in PVP.
You would gladly, but others wouldn't. I'm sure others would also enjoy being able to self-heal by attacking from range, too. You can also heal the pet, too. But in the end, every class should have its strengths and weaknesses. I say enough to making everything so homogenous.
Sorc healing is only good in PvE content, where attacks that require big heals are far less frequent than they are in PvP (typically once every 10-20 seconds) where a 1 shot burst combo can come in up to once every 3-5 seconds in a 1v1 or 1v2 fights or up to multiple times per second when fighting outnumbered. Being on the offense for healing over time just isn't an option in those scenarios especially without an in-class sticky DoT option to partially make crit surge into a passive HoT and having an interruptible/killable burst heal just further compounds this issue.
Sorc doesn't need a busted burst heal like coag, but at least give the class a reliable burst heal option that doesn't have a cast time and is not tied to a killable pet to allow it the opportunity to recover from sustained pressure/burst combos like all 5 other classes have.
Sorc would still have passive HoT as a weakness even with a reliable burst heal and all of its damage requires lining up multiple GCDs, most of which can be avoided with a single dodge roll/mistform and it still lacks many of the strong mitigation passives that other classes (including NB) currently have, so it's not like the class would be only strengths with a reliable burst heal added to its kit.In general, classes only have access to one burst heal and its single target and directional. Sorcs have access to a burst heal that not only heals 3 (if you include the pet), but will heal in a 360 degree radius. Yes, it takes two bars, but it is also much stronger considerably. I would be happy to make the pet smaller, but asking for another burst heal, when you can also heal from just attacking from range, and another channel heal that returns resources is unnecessary.
This is actually untrue, all classes have access to multiple burst heals, 1 single target directional and 1 multi-target that is either directional AoE and some classes have even more than this.
Sorc currently has 2 ST heals, 1 is a self heal only but is more of a sustain skill with a mediocre heal attached to it as an afterthought than an actual burst heal and the other heal is ST, but can heal up to 2 players at the same time, but is on a pet that uses 2018 ESO combat metrics and horrible AI that loves to get itself killed among other issues.
The issue is that both of these heals have downsides that are too detrimental to run in PvP on such an important ability such as a burst heal, but since a burst heal is required for PvP, people use them because there's no other alternative.2 -
Liguar✭✭✭✭I love no-pet sorc, but I know it's sub-optimal. I would absolutely welcome new options to encourage more people to play without them!
Even so, there should also to be an optional way to hide other player's pets or eliminate the flapping. Do they actually need to be flapping all the time?
It's not simply that they are hideous, or oversized or blocking the banks but for me the timing of the flapping simulates the right strobe effect to trigger sharp, localized headaches. Another player I talked to said they induce dizziness and they can't look at the screen when there's one close by.
They shouldn't be in banks or at utilities in cities, but it's also when you load in at a wayshrine. Even playing solo/duo there is no way to avoid them other than hiding in instanced locales. It's a plague.1 -
maxjapank✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Turtle_Bot wrote: »This is actually untrue, all classes have access to multiple burst heals, 1 single target directional and 1 multi-target that is either directional AoE and some classes have even more than this.
Not really. And an aoe heal is not a burst. They all heal for much, much less. And would only be used in a group situation. Not for self. Take Templars for example. Breath of Life is capable of healing two players, but the 2nd player is only 1/3 of the amount. There is also much less guarantee to get that 1st player big burst heal you need if others are around. Sorc pet heal is 360 degrees and gives 3 big burst heals, one to the pet.
Sorcs also have access to more powerful shields, which were recently buffed some too.
And one thing I've noticed about Sorc Twilight, is that they often don't remain close enough to be burst down. Many times, just as you're about to kill it, they reappear elsewhere.
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Naftal✭✭✭✭✭I pvp a lot, and Sorc healing is a huge weakness, and imbalance compared to any other class with a reliable burst heal. As OP noted, the Matriarch (bird) is the ONLY source of viable healing. Dark Conversion is too slow and too weak, having a full 1-second cast time, and unlike other class's heals, it does not scale so remains at a lackluster 5000 in pvp w/battlespirit.
I know a lot of stamsorcs who double heal with vigor and dc, which is fine, if you're a StamSorc. If you like to play MagSorc, the bird is your only heal option, and when it's killed (which all good pvp'rs do, immediately) you're dead. It takes a full 4 seconds to resummon the damned thing and you get locked into the summoning animation, so you pretty much have to hide to do it. Unworkable.
I'm in a guild that PvPs a lot, and virtually every Sorc is a StamSorc that used Master's Wep Dual Wield. They all hit hurricane, haunting curse, crystal frag (if it procs) then streak in and spam Dual Wield (Blood Craze + Whirling Blades X20).
This is what they do, over and over again, to be effective on (Stam) Sorc. And it's fairly effective. But very repetitive and boring.
If you want to be a MAGsorc, and not rely on Stamina Weapon spammables, your options are trash.
So, any time someone suggests changes/improvements to Sorc, I feel it's critical to clarify MAGSORC, as it is a completely different class to play than Stamsorc.
Before some helpful fellow gamer replies “Hybrid, dude, get gud, learn to play": I'm fully aware that grabbing a pair of maces (Masters Twin Slashes) and some medium armor would make me MUCH MORE competitive in pvp. But I want to play a MageSorc, and according to the "Core Values" of ESO, I should be able to do that effectively.
PLEASE GIVE MAGSORC A HEAL THAT SCALES WITH SPELL DAMAGE, IS INSTANT BURST, AND CANNOT BE KILLED.
So Magsorc can be at least in the ballpark of parity with other strong classes right now (LOOK at the healing on NB, DK, and Warden, for God's sake....)
Vigor scales with spell damage if that's higher than your weapon damage.0 -
VvwvenomwvV✭✭✭✭I play on all classes. I can say with an unbiased opinion that the sorc burst / teammate heal, the Twilight is inferior and actually a major hindrance.
As stated above "any good player immediately targets the Twilight when fighting a sorc". Even AOE stuff kills the Twilight. Have you ever been around flaming oil with your Twilight? It's INSTA-DEAD!!!!! You'll spend most of your time looking for cover to resummon your Twilight with your arms stuck out by your sides looking like Razor Ramon until your dead!
That's me in Gray Host the other day right before I died^1 -
Turtle_Bot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Turtle_Bot wrote: »This is actually untrue, all classes have access to multiple burst heals, 1 single target directional and 1 multi-target that is either directional AoE and some classes have even more than this.
Not really. And an aoe heal is not a burst. They all heal for much, much less. And would only be used in a group situation. Not for self. Take Templars for example. Breath of Life is capable of healing two players, but the 2nd player is only 1/3 of the amount. There is also much less guarantee to get that 1st player big burst heal you need if others are around. Sorc pet heal is 360 degrees and gives 3 big burst heals, one to the pet.
Sorcs also have access to more powerful shields, which were recently buffed some too.
And one thing I've noticed about Sorc Twilight, is that they often don't remain close enough to be burst down. Many times, just as you're about to kill it, they reappear elsewhere.
Again, the downsides to the bird far outweigh the upsides for pvp specifically. I stated specifically that the twilight is very strong healing for PvE content, this is because in PvE, NPCs won't focus the pet, leaving it alive to do its job of healing + DoT. This is not the case in PvP, good opponents will immediately focus down the pet, since without that, the sorc will die very quickly unless it has a group or dedicated healer protecting it.
I would agree with you if the twilight was updated for 2023 eso combat, but the fact that it has remained the same since 2018 when base damage, healing and mitigation was much much lower makes it much less reliable. If you can't burst down a 20k health pet that has 50% mitigation at best, that's not on the pet. As for resetting, that's because if the sorc doesn't run away to deliberately reset the pet (and more likely save themselves), the pet dies way too quickly. The heal on the pet is also halved, so its 2 big heals on players and 1 half heal specifically on the pet, it's never 3 big burst heals.
The trade-off for the pet is when the pet dies it takes 1.5 seconds to re-summon it, during which you can be easily interrupted that also hard locks (greys out) the skill for 3 seconds forcing you to attempt to summon it again and leaving you without a burst heal for upwards of 7+ seconds. The other trade off is forcing it to be slotted on both bars meaning much less room for utility skills and even staple buff skills, with most sorcs running chudan to get major resolve because there's no bar space.
As for the AoE heals, they are technically burst heals, they just heal the group for a smaller amount than a ST burst heal, but they are still a single cast heal that is bigger than a tick of a HoT.
The reason I brought up the AoE heals was that the twilight is technically the sorcs AoE heal, it just heals 2 players for equivalent to a ST burst heal instead of everyone in the AoE for a smaller amount.
As for shields, if shields were so strong, why doesn't every class use the light armor shields, or plar use its shields? It's because healing (and block casting heals) is just the far superior defensive option. I've ran the new buffed shields, they are still too weak even after the buff and I have since switched back to resto staff back bar with blessings of protection as a burst heal as even a mediocre weapon line AoE heal still performs better than the recently buffed shields, that's how weak shields are mechanically compared to healing in general and especially block casting heals.
I must ask, do you do much openworld PvP? and if you do, do you go solo or small groups (i.e. not join/follow the large zergs), because your statements heavily indicate that you either stick to large groups or play in BGs if you do PvP, not that there's anything wrong with that, but that doesn't give you a good perspective on why healing is such an issue for sorcerer currently, especially for openworld PvP.1 -
Turtle_Bot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I pvp a lot, and Sorc healing is a huge weakness, and imbalance compared to any other class with a reliable burst heal. As OP noted, the Matriarch (bird) is the ONLY source of viable healing. Dark Conversion is too slow and too weak, having a full 1-second cast time, and unlike other class's heals, it does not scale so remains at a lackluster 5000 in pvp w/battlespirit.
I know a lot of stamsorcs who double heal with vigor and dc, which is fine, if you're a StamSorc. If you like to play MagSorc, the bird is your only heal option, and when it's killed (which all good pvp'rs do, immediately) you're dead. It takes a full 4 seconds to resummon the damned thing and you get locked into the summoning animation, so you pretty much have to hide to do it. Unworkable.
I'm in a guild that PvPs a lot, and virtually every Sorc is a StamSorc that used Master's Wep Dual Wield. They all hit hurricane, haunting curse, crystal frag (if it procs) then streak in and spam Dual Wield (Blood Craze + Whirling Blades X20).
This is what they do, over and over again, to be effective on (Stam) Sorc. And it's fairly effective. But very repetitive and boring.
If you want to be a MAGsorc, and not rely on Stamina Weapon spammables, your options are trash.
So, any time someone suggests changes/improvements to Sorc, I feel it's critical to clarify MAGSORC, as it is a completely different class to play than Stamsorc.
Before some helpful fellow gamer replies “Hybrid, dude, get gud, learn to play": I'm fully aware that grabbing a pair of maces (Masters Twin Slashes) and some medium armor would make me MUCH MORE competitive in pvp. But I want to play a MageSorc, and according to the "Core Values" of ESO, I should be able to do that effectively.
PLEASE GIVE MAGSORC A HEAL THAT SCALES WITH SPELL DAMAGE, IS INSTANT BURST, AND CANNOT BE KILLED.
So Magsorc can be at least in the ballpark of parity with other strong classes right now (LOOK at the healing on NB, DK, and Warden, for God's sake....)
Vigor scales with spell damage if that's higher than your weapon damage.
Vigor is a Heal over Time, not a burst heal.1 -
Michaelkeir✭✭✭✭✭If only we could actually summon different pets. If only. Maybe one day they will at LEAST give us an option to change how they look.2