Grizzbeorn wrote: »

Can we please stop with these threads?

Having access to one-bar HA builds DOES NOT discriminate against people who have put time and effort into learning the double-bar builds.
That is a total fallacy.

It takes NOTHING away from those people.

It’s not just 1 bar builds, it’s heavy attacking where you stand there holding a button. You might buff yourself from time to time but predominantly you are holding 1 button. I wish I would agree but I do not see how this could be the same level of skill as 2 bar light attack build…

Grizzbeorn wrote: »

Arbit wrote: »

I do not see how this could be the same level of skill as 2 bar light attack build…

And that's the point you folks keep missing: the two-bar builds, BECAUSE they are more complex to use effectively, still perform at a higher level than one-bar builds.

One-bar builds, while simpler to execute, sacrifice overall power for the sake of that simplicity.

They don’t sacrifice enough power tbh. I’ve been noticing a lot of higher level players using them in veteran content. I did coral airi not long ago where a necro was doing very respectable damage with it to the point I was wondering what the point in my build was. The trade off of effort to efficacy is not good right now. Everyone’s running it because it’s really good and very easy tbh. It is far too strong for its level of difficulty.

Arbit wrote: »

They don’t sacrifice enough power tbh.

That's your opinion, and all it sounds like is gate-keeping.
As though your feelings are bruised because someone else might be able to do difficult content now, where before they couldn't.
Which just returns me to the gist of my original statement -- someone now having the ability to do harder content DOES NOT take away from YOUR ability to do the same content.

Arbit wrote: »

All I have to say is there is a serious need for balancing, because long time players who have put in time and effort are seeing all that effort into the system basically made irrelevant

i am a long time player and do not agree with this claim.
I've been an on and off again player of ESO for a long time also. i remember a time before one tamriel. a time when gaining levels meant a real investment. today i can get to 50 in a few days (i've heard tell of folks who've done this in hours). getting decent gear required some wonder pet action (what's gonna work?). heck, even travelling meant a slow run between shrines. bumperstickers!!
I've seen plenty of meta's come and go, but this one... is the first one that i really enjoy and tbh i don't feel it's all that meta. wdik?
i've reached a point in my character's creation where i use only those skills needed for how i play and they all happen to fit on one bar.
i don't have an original build.
there are many like it, but this one is mine.

How about instead of worrying what others are doing in content that is designed to have you work together instead of compete against each other, you focus on what you're doing and getting better with how you want to play the game instead of worrying about what someone else is doing to enjoy the game how they want.

You want to take the harder route, putting more effort in to achieve a higher ceiling, that's your decision and as such you get rewarded for putting in that extra effort with better results.
Someone else that wants to take the easier route that has a lower ceiling, that is entirely up to them and has nothing to do with you.

You don't like HA builds, don't use them and run content with friends/guildies that play the way you enjoy, stop trying to force everyone in the game to play the way that you deem is the only acceptable way to play.

Grizzbeorn wrote: »

Arbit wrote: »

I do not see how this could be the same level of skill as 2 bar light attack build…

And that's the point you folks keep missing: the two-bar builds, BECAUSE they are more complex to use effectively, still perform at a higher level than one-bar builds.

One-bar builds, while simpler to execute, sacrifice overall power for the sake of that simplicity.
While it does open up access to more people, that choice comes with a cost.
Two-bar builds still outperform one-bar builds.

While not advocating for nerfs it's not exactly true. Most people adopting 2 bars are far from max damage potential of it and mostly are doing the same or worse than HA options. Even good players are mostly at 95-110k and not that extreme edge of 130+. Especially difference shows in dungeons, where 2 bar needs a lot of support to have a fraction of their parse, whilst HA maintains a lot bigger part with zero issues being super survivable and having no sustain mini game. "Sacrifice" is an advantage which is probably wasn't though out that well. It's not gatekeeping or call from the very top, it's a problem for ones in the middle being discouraged and having harder time than a new option which supposed to be an accessibility and not a replacement for hundred percent of other efficient progression ways. Sure some would get a lot of fun, some might actually migrate to "endgame" but that's rather vague and later part seems unlikely from my experience. I see people who are possessing "right mentality" for endgame discouraged by it in discords, so see it as an issue.

Arbit wrote: »

...It’s not a simple RPG

with all respect due ...yes it is. that's all it is.

threads closing...
plz.

Arbit wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

How about instead of worrying what others are doing in content that is designed to have you work together instead of compete against each other, you focus on what you're doing and getting better with how you want to play the game instead of worrying about what someone else is doing to enjoy the game how they want.

You want to take the harder route, putting more effort in to achieve a higher ceiling, that's your decision and as such you get rewarded for putting in that extra effort with better results.
Someone else that wants to take the easier route that has a lower ceiling, that is entirely up to them and has nothing to do with you.

You don't like HA builds, don't use them and run content with friends/guildies that play the way you enjoy, stop trying to force everyone in the game to play the way that you deem is the only acceptable way to play.

I don’t use them. Because I don’t agree with them. They are invalidating our work by making these builds and it will drive away players who have put in the effort. Balance is important and so is validating peoples effort in the game. It’s not a simple RPG, if I don’t feel like my time investment is worth anything I’ll probably play something else if I’m honest. Trust me I know people who need an easy build and don’t have the time investment in this game, it doesn’t mean it should be a competitive prospect.

And those issues you described that you are having with HA builds are entirely your own problems and no-one else's. No-one is forcing you to only play HA builds, it's entirely your own perception that they are the only way to play/progress or that they are invalidating your work.

Perhaps instead you could look at it this way, you put in the effort and made the decision to master a more complicated build and improve at the game with the possibility to reach even greater heights, as such, be happy and proud of your own achievements instead of looking at what others are doing and letting jealousy/envy ruin your fun in the game.

As for driving players away from the game, U35's huge nerf to overall damage and the constant bugs and performance issues are a MUCH bigger reason for people to quit the game than HA builds ever could be.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Arbit wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

How about instead of worrying what others are doing in content that is designed to have you work together instead of compete against each other, you focus on what you're doing and getting better with how you want to play the game instead of worrying about what someone else is doing to enjoy the game how they want.

You want to take the harder route, putting more effort in to achieve a higher ceiling, that's your decision and as such you get rewarded for putting in that extra effort with better results.
Someone else that wants to take the easier route that has a lower ceiling, that is entirely up to them and has nothing to do with you.

You don't like HA builds, don't use them and run content with friends/guildies that play the way you enjoy, stop trying to force everyone in the game to play the way that you deem is the only acceptable way to play.

I don’t use them. Because I don’t agree with them. They are invalidating our work by making these builds and it will drive away players who have put in the effort. Balance is important and so is validating peoples effort in the game. It’s not a simple RPG, if I don’t feel like my time investment is worth anything I’ll probably play something else if I’m honest. Trust me I know people who need an easy build and don’t have the time investment in this game, it doesn’t mean it should be a competitive prospect.

And those issues you described that you are having with HA builds are entirely your own problems and no-one else's. No-one is forcing you to only play HA builds, it's entirely your own perception that they are the only way to play/progress or that they are invalidating your work.

Perhaps instead you could look at it this way, you put in the effort and made the decision to master a more complicated build and improve at the game with the possibility to reach even greater heights, as such, be happy and proud of your own achievements instead of looking at what others are doing and letting jealousy/envy ruin your fun in the game.

As for driving players away from the game, U35's huge nerf to overall damage and the constant bugs and performance issues are a MUCH bigger reason for people to quit the game than HA builds ever could be.

Tbh U35 didn’t bother me. The nerf to overall damage doesn’t matter in the grand scheme if it’s across the board. Heavy attack builds don’t make me envious they bother me because I am competing now with people who have no skill in the game whatsoever. It does invalidate the work you put in. Why bother. What was the point? You can paint it like it’s all me, but I’m sure others see it the same way. Like when we lost progress when cp got raised, like when maelstrom didn’t perfect our weapons when they made perfected versions, and like the heavy attack builds now. It is wasted effort, the changing meta is fine, but don’t make my efforts meaningless unless I’m learning an entirely new system.

Arbit wrote: »

They are invalidating our work

Uh, no. I am in no way "invalidated" playing my 2bar La weaving dps with a 1bar Ha sorc next to me. That all seems like a YOU problem. You don't have to like it, but suck it up,

Arbit wrote: »

I’ll probably play something else if I’m honest.

or do that.

Arbit wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

How about instead of worrying what others are doing in content that is designed to have you work together instead of compete against each other, you focus on what you're doing and getting better with how you want to play the game instead of worrying about what someone else is doing to enjoy the game how they want.

You want to take the harder route, putting more effort in to achieve a higher ceiling, that's your decision and as such you get rewarded for putting in that extra effort with better results.
Someone else that wants to take the easier route that has a lower ceiling, that is entirely up to them and has nothing to do with you.

You don't like HA builds, don't use them and run content with friends/guildies that play the way you enjoy, stop trying to force everyone in the game to play the way that you deem is the only acceptable way to play.

They are invalidating our work by making these builds and it will drive away players who have put in the effort.

If a game becomes work to you then maybe it's time to re-evaluate how you pass your free time.
It seems some people would rather not be able to run trials at all because of lack of players then to allow "lesser" people to join them there.

We’re done here. I’ve already uninstalled eso as of this moment. You can close the thread if you want. I’m severely disappointed in the attitudes of the players on this forum. Not sure why there’s such a large pool of supporters for free passes here. [snip]. Anyways, it’s a free pass is all it is, I may have lost nothing but time, effort, and a the ability to teach new players something useful. But hey, they can hold that mouse button and watch the numbers go brrrrr.

[edited for flaming]

@Arbit be prepared for a *** storm and maybe even plenty accusation and insulting 🤣...

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

HA builds that just stand there holding 1 button have a ceiling of about 40k (50-60k if the group is providing all of the buffs/debuffs the trial dummys grant).

HA builds require much more than just "holding 1 button and occasionally buff" to achieve anywhere near the 80k+ that many detractors try to claim they do and those videos of 100k+ parses require perfect timing of DoTs, off balance management, rotations, practice and much more to achieve that result, the average player using a HA build will never get anywhere near that level of damage without putting in the effort to master the HA rotations and uptimes.

Absolutely wrong. The low end of damage - no matter how experienced, good or bad you are - is 80k DPS IF you build correclty. People who cant achieve 80k DPS with this build by just holding down one button just havent built correctly / made mistakes in their build, like choosing wrong CPs, wrong buff food, wrong sets, wrong traits, non golden gear, wrong mundus, wrong race (often very underrated but the right race is necessary to hit 80k just by holding down the left mousebutton!), wrong class (sorcerer does the highest damage right now, every other class is at least slightly below it for this build).

So if you are really (far) below 80k+ your build is just bad and we arent even talking about the same thing (the same build). If you really hit 40k, you probably did almost anything of the mentioned stuff absolutely wrong...

But the real build about which people are talking is just that: get the (very easy obtainable) sets (except the ring, its even the most difficult to obtain piece), choose the right class, choose the right race, choose the right buff food, choose the right CPs, choose the right traits, choose the right skills, choose the right mundus, make everything golden and then just hold down the left mouse button and you are hitting 80k+, no matter how good you are, how bad you are, how long you play, how experienced you are, if you have disabilities or what else, you will hit exactly for 80k+ single target! In AOE situations this build will sometimes even hit for several 100k DPS - just by holding down the left mouse button (again only if you do the correct build).

If you want a proof- which you and the rest will probably just completely ignore again, because I already posted it a few times:
https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/yw4bw5/78k_dps_just_from_holding_down_left_click_build/
78k DPS and as you can see in combat metrics, he was just holding down the left mouse button - no skill casts at all. And far beyond your stated 40k... And this is even not the most optimized version of that build (which would hit above 80k)...

And there is even no rotation, timing or something else included in being able to hit 80k+, none at all, you need this only to be able to hit 100-110k+. Also heavy attack weaving is absolutey easy once anyone explained it properly to you and you can do it almost instantly in a perfect way because its really not even close to the difficulty of light attack weaving and you have plenty of wiggle room. It would be a real achievement if someone is unable to heavy attack weave even after he got a proper introduction / explanation.

While light attacking (and for achieveing a tiny bit more damage) you need to (perfectly) hit timeframes lower than 100 ms while for heavy attack weaving you have time frames that are about 2 seconds (about 20x more)...

For a proper rotation on such a build you only have to track about 2 or maybe 3 timers and react only about every 2 seconds, while a 2 bar build can sometimes end up with even more than 10 timers / stack counters and procs that need to be tracked and where you sometimes dynamically have to react in about 1 second while watching all of them and maybe even bar swapping while also perfectly light attack weaving...

The skill gap between mastering both is absolute crazy - while the damage difference is in most cases absolutely neglectible, especially in PUGs and dungeons, where the oakensoul builds (heavy or not) sometimes can even outperform those complex 2 bar builds, because of the permanent buffs of the oakensoul ring and the independence of proper support roles.

Additionally oakensoul onebar users are much more tanky / have much more survivability than most two bar builds that are able to do more damage when perfectly played by the top 1% players, while this build probably can be played by > 99% players after they have properly done that build and figured out / got explained how to play it...

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

It is NOT a 1-button build. Please stop these false assertions. Just play the game the way you like it and let other players play it as they see fit.

It can be if you want it to be - see my link (which is a real proof and not just some blah blah). 80k DPS with a one button build. Up to 100k+ if you choose to do more than just holding down one button. You will do better than probably more than 50% damage dealers you encounter in PUG groups - no matter if you play absolutely one bar or do put a slightly bit more work into it - just by using this build.

Arbit wrote: »

It does invalidate the work you put in. Why bother. What was the point? You can paint it like it’s all me, but I’m sure others see it the same way. Like when we lost progress when cp got raised, like when maelstrom didn’t perfect our weapons when they made perfected versions, and like the heavy attack builds now. It is wasted effort, the changing meta is fine, but don’t make my efforts meaningless unless I’m learning an entirely new system.

Dont bother to much. The folks will keep telling you its a you problem, maybe even start calling names (like elitsist, gatekeeper and whatnot) - thats how they want to shut you / all the discussion about this topic down. Some even directly proposed to shut down the whole thread before it even got started...

They even lie and dont get the facts right... only 40k... not a one button build... yeah...

It always bugs me when people come to the forums to declare "people should play how I want them to play" instead of letting everyone play how they want. Honestly, WHO CARES if people prefer one-bar builds. For myself, one-bar builds with Oakensoul has made the game MUCH MORE enjoyable for me... as it has for many many others... and I've been playing more because of it. Who cares if people want an 'easy mode'... because you don't even know the reasons behind why they choose this option. Clearly it's not the min/maxers (who tend to be the ones complaining most about these builds) because they know you cannot achieve the same level as a 2-bar build. Most people, the majority, just want to play the game their way and enjoy the content that they enjoy... what's wrong with that?