Some random normal DLC dungeons unfair on low cp players.

Rowjoh · March 2023

heres why:

With no or very low cp, I've had to either leave or be kicked, because I'm not powerful enough, or the group itself isn't able to complete. Queuing for a random normal, which ironically people do to boost cp, unlock skills and level them, shouldn't net DLC dungeons like Scriveners Hall etc.

I'm perfectly capable of completing all the normal base dungeons and some dlc ones, but there are an ever increasing number that just shouldn't be in the mix.

(I queue for dungeons when no one in my guilds needs to do a random normnal, which is more often than not unfortunately, despite being in some very good guilds).

MaleAmazon · March 2023

This has been an issue for some people for a long time. What I can say is:

-It is mean to kick people just for being low CP. Some people dont want sub-160s since they dont get max level gear to trade, perhaps.

-With proper gear, which is perfectly attainable before CP 160 (just dont gold it, it´s a waste), you should be able to do any normal dungeon including DLC. At least as a DD. Hard, yes, impossible, no. Hard to say in your case of course, unless you point out exactly what kills you.

-There is a conflict since some people do want to do these dungeons. I mean - if you are a new player, how would you react if you actually bought a dungeon DLC and then couldn´t play it? What if you got ESO+ to play new dungeons and then just were met with "sorry, no go until CP 160, of course your subscription is gone by then, not our problem". Scrivener´s hall is unlocked at lvl 45, I don´t see it as uncompleteable at that point.

Androrix · March 2023

I absolutely cannot stand players who do random normal dungeons and want to kick someone because they think they are not good enough. Pathetic. I mean, its a normal dungeon. You really aren't that good yourself if you need a better player to complete it. And if you are as good as you think, then you should be able to help someone who is learning no problem.

colossalvoids · March 2023

Honestly see no real solution there. Some enjoy them even before cp160, some don't being cp1-2k + and there's no happy medium for it. Random means random, I for sure won't expect an easy ride every time nor completion, especially when starting out.

CompM4s · March 2023

I kind of think dlc dungeons should start showing up around 300cp. I think it would be better for everyone. I personally won’t kick a low cp in any normal dungeon, but if the group doesn't have someone carrying the group, I can see how having someone very low cp could be frustrating. It is probably even more frustrating getting booted from the group as well.

ArchMikem · March 2023

Logically they could assign a "no random available" tag to all DLC dungeons, other than that I'm sorry for your experiences with inconsiderate players.

Sometimes I run random normals as the kind of player I don't like, running ahead etc. I have to double take and realize, oh they're low level, they might be doing the Quest or need help. I'm happy to "carry" others when it's a Normal.

mocap · March 2023

Rowjoh wrote: »

I've had to either leave or be kicked, because I'm not powerful enough

This can be interpreted in different ways:
- low dps?
- low survivability? (it's super easy to get fake healer on random normal)
- don't know mechanics?

Best advice is to do quests, explore and stuff like that. Enlightenment bonus will keep an eye on you. Forget about damn dungeons for sometime.

upd: and yes, when you start going through dungeons like a knife through butter, you'll probably start kicking newbies yourself. That's the bitter truth.

BlueRaven · March 2023

colossalvoids wrote: »

Honestly see no real solution there. Some enjoy them even before cp160, some don't being cp1-2k + and there's no happy medium for it. Random means random, I for sure won't expect an easy ride every time nor completion, especially when starting out.

I think the best solution is for zos to start putting higher min cp requirements on their new “normal” dungeons. This way sub 160cp (or whatever the appropriate min cp should be) players don’t get the new dungeons.

Or:

Nerf down the difficulty in the newer dungeons on normal.

FeedbackOnly · March 2023

Since the new dlc dropped it should be better.

The problem I believe started with lower light and heavy attack damage. @ZOS_Wrobel buffed it originally because lower players were making some dungeons impossible to do. For years it fixed then they forgot...

Update was last week no? I would check again because on paper the lower end should have some relief.

Poss · March 2023

This happened to my group this morning. I got Lair of Maarselok(sp?) and like with every dungeon, I check the groups composition at the start. Do we have an actual tank/healer, any low levels, are we all high levels and gonna speedrun etc. When it comes to speed running, if that’s what ALL of my group members want to do then I’m game. But if there’s one who doesn’t then I will always lag behind with them, sometimes they want to search for chests. I’m fine with that. We had a level 49 today so I didn’t join the two other higher levels speed running to the first boss, I lagged behind and waited for the guy to pick up his quest.

He died A LOT but this didn’t bother me. I have absolutely no problem taking it slow if need be but we didn’t have a healer or a tank and it wasn’t easy for the guy.

After a while, someone voted to kick him. This was promptly vetoed. But the guy who initiated the vote queued as a tank and then ragequit when he kept wiping to Selene’s spider.

We got it done eventually but it’s sad to see this happen. I get people do these dungeons on all their toons every single day for the XP/transmutes but to witness a low level be ridiculed like this by people who queued as a healer/tank for easier queues and to not fulfil that role angers me

Soarora · March 2023

Some people want normal dungeons to be easy, others want them to be harder so people learn their role before doing vet. Can’t have it both ways.

If you have a heal companion and maybe a friend you can do skyreach quickly to get to 160. Or you can do writs during the upcoming event. Then you can use max level gear which should help a lot.

Amottica · March 2023

The best path is to form the group in advance instead of dealing with random players, each with their own agenda. Guild groups are the best for this as they are not only more forgiving but also tend to be more helpful.

I rarely deal with random players anymore due to experiencing poorly performing groups that I have yet to find running with my guilds.

Rowjoh · March 2023

some good ideas here:

The logical and reasonable compromise would be to tag the small handful of hardest most frustrating DLC dungeons for low cp'ers as only available from CP 300. The game unlocks dungeons as you level from 1-50 anyway, so the argument that you're somehow missing out on a few doesn't stack up at all.

Also, you can't just go and buy or craft optimium gear once you hit CP160 - it takes quite a while to build up to that and I dont want to 'forget about dungeons for a while' when I can do base and most other dlc dungeons in order to take advantage of the big xp boost that helps to get me to the point where I can do the remaining harder dlc ones !

mocap · March 2023

Since your question miraculously transformed into XP gain, i recommend to travel to Alik'r and kill zombies there. This will give you waaaay more XP than random normal for the same amount of time.

tincanman · March 2023

Rowjoh wrote: »

heres why:

With no or very low cp, I've had to either leave or be kicked, because I'm not powerful enough, or the group itself isn't able to complete. Queuing for a random normal, which ironically people do to boost cp, unlock skills and level them, shouldn't net DLC dungeons like Scriveners Hall etc.

I'm perfectly capable of completing all the normal base dungeons and some dlc ones, but there are an ever increasing number that just shouldn't be in the mix.

(I queue for dungeons when no one in my guilds needs to do a random normnal, which is more often than not unfortunately, despite being in some very good guilds).

I'd suggest a change of strategy or two, if I may(bolded is what I believe will help most):

Queue for random vet dungeons instead. It may seem counter intuitive but unless your 'low' cp is 300+ you won't get DLC dungeons and many base game dungeons are arguably easier on vet than some later dlc normal dungeons. Vet queuers tend to be less judgemental about others and are usually there to have fun; transmute crystals etc are a bonus but usually not the main focus. if you're sub cp160 ensure weapons are as close to your cp lvl as possible(see below). If cp160+, leverage guildies etc for a couple of crafted sets to start farming better gear.
pre-form groups: it just gets rid of the whole getting kicked and other silliness.
when sub-cp160 ensure your weapons are as close to your cp as you can possibly make them, crafted sets are perfectly fine if you can get them (most guilds will have a fair few crafters able to help out - ask them). Armour doesn't matter as much but, obviously, if someone is able to craft gear you can try match that to your cp, too - but don't go overboard as it becomes obsolete very fast. Purple quality for weapons, blue is fine for armour. But armour can be 40th lvl until you hit cp160 and you probably won't notice it - it's only weapons that are super-important.
dlc dungeons are mechanics heavy and the newer ones are best 'explored' with pre-formed groups or check out some video run - understanding mechanics is more than half the battle. If you don't feel comfortable with a particular dungeon, or your build in that context or the group you are with then ABSOLUTELY QUIT THE GROUP. There is no point in persisting when it's more stress than fun (fun-stress is ok: that is, when it's harder but you're playing as a team & having fun doing so). I think this option to drop group is one newer players struggle with: but your time and fun are important so don't be afraid to 'thanks but no thanks' and just bow out if it's not working for you. Newly released dlc dungeons will possibly appear more frequently because players are relentlessly farming the gear to fill collections - in normal runs some players in these, I imagine, will be the least patient with pretty much anyone else they perceive as slowing 'their' farm runs.

I think some changes may be needed to the queue system but I don't think any more caps or cp limits are answers.

Have fun.

ZOS_Icy · March 2023

Greetings,

After further review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic.

Thank you for your understanding.

Soarora · March 2023

Rowjoh wrote: »

some good ideas here:

The logical and reasonable compromise would be to tag the small handful of hardest most frustrating DLC dungeons for low cp'ers as only available from CP 300. The game unlocks dungeons as you level from 1-50 anyway, so the argument that you're somehow missing out on a few doesn't stack up at all.

Also, you can't just go and buy or craft optimium gear once you hit CP160 - it takes quite a while to build up to that and I dont want to 'forget about dungeons for a while' when I can do base and most other dlc dungeons in order to take advantage of the big xp boost that helps to get me to the point where I can do the remaining harder dlc ones !

You can’t immediately get current meta gear that is true, but you can get old meta gear that work fine, upgrade gear, transmute/reconstruct into correct trait (divines for dps), etc.
Mother’s sorrow (buyable/overland), Kinras (BDV, requires weaving), Order’s wrath (craftable), Frostbite (buyable/overland, for frost warden), Medusa (Arx, jewelry/weapons), Plaguebreak (buyable, big group go boom, not so good single target), I could probably go on.

You can also try out healing or tanking, though I’m not sure of any starter gear for either off the top of my head. Healing is pretty open in that you can be a dps with heals or a healer with dps. All thats expected of you is to heal enough that people don’t die, you can count on healer buffs because you’re getting them from yourself, and spell power cure (a basic healer set) is from the white-gold tower dungeon. Being mixed works well for nightblade, where you do damage to heal you and your team. Tanking on normal could try a brawler (sword and board, 2h) or maybe a nightblade or templar (spammable heals you), but proper tanks don’t have a lot of damage potential.

colossalvoids · March 2023

BlueRaven wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Honestly see no real solution there. Some enjoy them even before cp160, some don't being cp1-2k + and there's no happy medium for it. Random means random, I for sure won't expect an easy ride every time nor completion, especially when starting out.

I think the best solution is for zos to start putting higher min cp requirements on their new “normal” dungeons. This way sub 160cp (or whatever the appropriate min cp should be) players don’t get the new dungeons.

Or:

Nerf down the difficulty in the newer dungeons on normal.

If we're gonna restrict players from doing normals there according to their CP and taking in account at what CP generally players are feeling better it would mean ridiculous numbers as most people aren't that combat ready anyway even at high cp. Cp160 now is probably 1-2 random normals away when you're hitting 50, so it's not really a restriction at all. It also means less in cp2.0, only being a gear cap now. I'd better not tinker with it than barring people from content they might have bought because someone else finds it too hard.

Second one is hardly achievable, they're extremely easy on normal already just like other dlc ones. People are also expecting to learn in normals at times, and making it even easier would make it absolutely impossible. That's why I'm seeing no good solutions to that.

Generally tinkering with anything at all because random queue exists is a bad idea personally.

Rowjoh · March 2023

the dictionary definition of normal:

adjective
1.
conforming to a standard; usual, typical, or expected.

First of all I'm only talking about the hardest 2 or 3 DLC dungeons for low level players.

When I want to do a random normal I try to form a group (via zone(s) and guilds) but if there's no response (more often than not unfortunately) that is when I use the Group Finder.

Having queued for a random normal and knowing that it takes anything from 5-15 minutes for the queue to pop for a dps, I will activate a 100% or 150% xp scroll/potion and go farm xp in a grind spot until the random normal prompt appears. This way I get the most bang for my buck from the xp scroll.

It is then perfectly reasonable (and normal) to expect that assuming an average group, (or even below average one) most random normals are completed in anything from 4 minutes (Darkshade I, Fungal grotto I, Spindle Clutch I etc) to 15 minutes. Most DLC ones are possible to complete in 15 minutes or under with reasonable difficulty/mechanics even for low levels. This is normal, and I can plan my sometimes limited game time based on this normality.

But to find myself in say Scriveners Hall is totally different from 'normal' and abnormal things happen because it isn't a normal dungeon:

1) I and others have been kicked because of low cp (underpowered/not fast enough etc).

2) the healer and/or tank rage quits / the group can't complete it

3) it takes so long that my expensive xp potion runs out before the xp bonus at the end without me/others realising.

...and I dont want to just leave the group, as some people suggest, because:

A ) its rude.
B ) I have to wait quarter of an hour until I can queue again, then the same thing happens.

Certainly Scriveners Hall does not conform to the dictionary definition of 'normal' when applied to this aspect of the game and therefore doesn't belong in the random normal category per se because it (and a couple of others like it) clearly break the parameters of the random normal spectrum.