Min-Max Sneak Range vs PvE NPCs & PvP

Gargath · April 2022

Hello, please help me understand how it works. I tried to find an answer on the forum but no luck so far.
My character is Khajiit Stamblade Vamp 4-stage, with all medium armor, 2H sword + resto staff. Sets:
5x Adept Rider (for speed),
4x Darloc Brae (for sneak range and cost reduction)
3x Night Terror (for sneak range and cost reduction)
Passives, skills, CPs, all set for sneak and speed.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor - for Sneak Range this editor calculates from basic 6,5m -2-2-3-3-35% = ca -4/-4,5m
-2: Vesture of Darloc Brae set bonus #4 (Skill2.SneakRange)
-2: Night Terror set bonus #3 (Skill2.SneakRange)
-3: Out of Sight CP ability (CP.SneakRange)
-35%: Improved Sneak 2 passive in Medium Armor Skills line (Skill.SneakRange)
-3: Feline Ambush 3 passive in Khajiit Skills line (Skill2.SneakRange)

I thought I'll be undetectable no matter bright day or night, but my character is still detected sometimes by some overland creatures like Alits in Vvardenfell or some human enemies, when I sneak in front of them, face-to face? Some creatures do not detect me, but some other do when closing face-to-face, that's also weird.

I used to have Night Terror with Night Mother Embrace sets, and detection range was the same but sneaking face-to-face was always perfect, now I'm sometimes detected. Maybe there is some bug when pairing Terror, Darloc and Adept.

Other stats from editor (vs. basic stat):
Sneak Cost: 11 (133)
Detection Range: 9,5 m (6,5 m)
Sprint Cost: 130 (500)
Walk Speed: 1,52 m/s (0,90 m/s)
Run Speed: 5,07 m/s (3,00 m/s)
Sprint Speed: 7,61 m/s (4,20 m/s)
Sneak Speed: 6,05 m/s (1,80 m/s)
Mount Walk Speed: 4,48 m/s (3,45 m/s)
Mount Run Speed: 5,65 m/s (4,35 m/s)

PS. I'm not a subscriber so have no access to any special gears like the speed rings.

Skullstachio · April 2022

Fun fact: as you have 12 different slots, try replacing adept for x5 night mothers embrace to go with x4 darloc brae and x3 night terror for even more sneakiness.

fred4 · April 2022

I don't know how the detection range works. I do believe it varies for NPCs. For example Deadroths may detect you, even if you are cloaking, but only if you are right in front of their nose. I haven't tested this in a while, though. Generally, if you want to be invisible, Cloak is the answer. Guards in Cyrodiil and IC will always detect you, if you get too close, unless you cloak and you keep cloaking. If you do that, you are truly free to roam. You can escape town guards trying to arrest you that way, although it may take a few cloaks to extricate yourself from their CCs, gap closers or projectiles.

There are two paths to cloak sustain. One is to be a magblade in light armor, preferably a Breton, and use the Atronach mundus and a high mag-regen drink, such as Hissmir Fisheye Rye. If you are not a Breton, slot an Alliance War Support skill, such as Barrier, for the added magicka regen passive. Wearing Bright Throat's Boast specifically or using magicka cost reduction enchants on jewelry can also help, but should not be necessary. The Seducer set may help. Other sustain sets generally do not, because of the vagaries of the combat engine - your out of combat sustain and in combat are not the same. Let's leave it at that.

The second path is 5 pieces of Darloc Brae and use Crouch + Cloak both, cloaking every 3 seconds. To negate the movement speed penalty from Crouch, be a vampire or use the Night's Silence or Shadow Dancer set. Slot Concealed Weapon for extra speed. Use the Wild Hunt Ring. With Concealed Weapon, Wild Hunt, CP and Swift jewelry (as needed) you will be at the speed cap (out of combat) even without Major Expedition.

Gargath · April 2022

Thanks for your feedback, but I rather wished to investigate why having so many negative points to sneak range, my character cannot be fully undetectable while standing in front of a guard. If base sneak range (detection by NPC) is 6,5 m. and according to Editor:
-2: Vesture of Darloc Brae set bonus #4 (Skill2.SneakRange)
-2: Night Terror set bonus #3 (Skill2.SneakRange)
-3: Out of Sight CP ability (CP.SneakRange)
-35%: Improved Sneak 2 passive in Medium Armor Skills line (Skill.SneakRange)
-3: Feline Ambush 3 passive in Khajiit Skills line (Skill2.SneakRange)
my character should have zero to minus range i.e. hidden no matter the range from NPC, but it's not working.

can it be some bug? Or can be that Darloc's 4-th passive and Terror 3-rd passive cannot work together? Looks like in game they have exactly the same effect:
Night Terror: "Reduces the radius you can be detected while Sneaking by 2 meters. Reduces the cost of Sneak cost by 26%."
(portals https://eso-sets.com/ and https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/ gives 27% -wrong.

Darloc Brae: "Reduces the radius you can be detected while Sneaking by 2 meters. Reduces the cost of Sneak cost by 26%."
(portals https://eso-sets.com/ and https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/ gives 10% -wrong.

The question is, if we use two different armor sets having the same passive bonus, will only one of these bonuses stop working, or both bonuses? From what I checked in game, while wearing both sets an active sneak range in front of a guard before detection is ca 0,5. As screenshot. It shouldn't make any difference of I have one set item in epic and another in gold quality, right?

Night Mother's Embrace - according to both above portals it "Reduces the radius you can be detected while Sneaking by 2 meters. Reduces the cost of Sneak by 25%" - can't confirm in game but the effect looks different and should work with Night Terror. Just can't have Adept Rider in a same time

.

fred4 · April 2022

Don't test with guards. As far as I can tell, guards are special and will probably always detect you. Certainly the guards in IC and Cyrodiil will detect you from way off. I was using Crouch + Darloc Brae for a while. No difference that I could tell, though I have not performed the precise / meticulous investigation you are looking for.

Gargath · April 2022

fred4 wrote: »

Don't test with guards. As far as I can tell, guards are special and will probably always detect you. Certainly the guards in IC and Cyrodiil will detect you from way off. I was using Crouch + Darloc Brae for a while. No difference that I could tell, though I have not performed the precise / meticulous investigation you are looking for.

Thanks, but I just tested yesterday and I'm sure that Darloc Set is bugged. I will raise a ticket at Support, though I think there is a little to no chance that they will address it.

I checked:
Darloc Brae with Night Terror - they react each other, stats changed
Darloc Brae with Night Mother's Embrace - they don't react, stats stable
Night Mother's Embrace with Night Terror - they don't react, stats stable

ESO SETS portals give for Darloc 4-th passive:
"Reduces the radius you can be detected while Sneaking by 2 meters. Reduces the cost of Sneak cost by 10%.

It seems right but only when Darloc is not paired with at least single item of Night Terror, then the 4-th passive "Sneak cost by 10%" automatically changes to "Sneak cost by 26%". Exactly same as Night Terror's. That's why they can't work together. It must be a bug and very annoying.

On screenshots, this one wear 5 pcs. Darloc Brae - Sneak cost by -10%.
I add a single piece of Night Terror, and Darloc Brae magically shows Sneak cost by -26%. It doesn't change no matter 1 or or 2 or 3 set items of Terror.

This would explain why Sneak Range dropped to +0,5m on my character, the Sneak passives Darloc's & Terror's don't work together.

When pairing Night Mother's Embrace 5pcs. (-2m,-25%) with Night Terror 3pcs (-2m,-26%), a Sneak Range seems correctly calculated to -4m and I can't be detected, no matter how close I stay from guard, NPC or enemy creatures. Character stays undetected even when guard is "passing by" through character, or when illuminted by torch while sneaking.

Skullstachio · April 2022

To be fair, darloc, night terror and night mothers embrace should all work together, sneak cost reduction isn’t what one should be after, its the detection area effects your after. Quality of the armor only affects the sneak cost reduction, not the detection factor.

To be extra safe, make sure it is all on one bar because if you weapon swap to something else, that could be a hidden factor if it isn’t taken into account.

Gargath · April 2022

As you can see on screenshots, I tested Darloc with Night Terror without any weapons slotted, and Night Terror with Night Mothers Embrace only on main bar without switching.

Sure, sneak cost reduction in those sets is not so important when we want to decrease sneak detection range.
But cost reduction parameter seems responsible for messing in those whole passives, and this should be checked by ZOS.

Snamyap · April 2022

This is most curious.

Gargath · March 2023

Almost a year after posting this comparison ZOS finally made something with Darloc Brae and Night Terror.

PC/Mac Patch Notes v8.3.5 Bookmark

Overland Sets

Night Terror: Fixed an issue where the tooltip bonus for this item set was listed as up to 27% sneak radius reduction, rather than the actual up to 10%.

Vesture of Darloc Brae: Fixed an issue where this set’s 4-piece bonus scaled with Night Terror’s quality instead of its own quality.

But I still don't know what does it mean in real. Will those sets now properly work together when 4x Darloc paired with 3 pcs. Terror? Or their passives exclude each other?
What does the "scaling with quality" mean here?