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im desperate my dps is low
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aaisoaho✭✭✭✭✭Dps is about speed. Speed takes power, but it takes other things too.
What are your hitting for? Maybe you're just not quick enough but your build is passable?
I think it is misleading to say dps would be about speed, since DPS is more about the rhythm and keeping good uptimes on things. One cannot cast skills faster than once a second, because skills share a 1 second global cooldown. If you cast skills faster than that, they queue, meaning the next skill will automatically fire after the cooldown ends, overriding any other action you took.
When using non-heavy attack builds, you want to use that second between casts as good as you can. This is to say, to light attack, to barswap, to drink potions, to take synergies in-between the skill casts. The way it is done is to cast a light attack and instantly cast a skill after it. The skill animation will override the light attack animation, but the light attack still gets registered and still will do its damage. This leads to a rather rhythmic gameplay where you light attack, instantly press a skill after and then wait around a second to do it again. It will sound a bit like a heartbeat (bah-bam, the first short bah sound is the light attack cast, the bam part is the skill cast).
The second part is to keep as good of uptimes as you can. This means, you have all the potion passives, you drink the potions as soon as they come off the cooldown. That you cast the damage over time effects as close to running out as you can (exception: carve, because of the stacking mechanic, you want to cast it a little before it runs out, because you rather cast it while 5 seconds are still remaining than to let it run out and lose the 32 seconds you would've gained when casting it again).1 -
Pelanora✭✭✭✭✭
✭Dps is about speed. Speed takes power, but it takes other things too.
What are your hitting for? Maybe you're just not quick enough but your build is passable?
I think it is misleading to say dps would be about speed, since DPS is more about the rhythm and keeping good uptimes on things. One cannot cast skills faster than once a second, because skills share a 1 second global cooldown. If you cast skills faster than that, they queue, meaning the next skill will automatically fire after the cooldown ends, overriding any other action you took.
When using non-heavy attack builds, you want to use that second between casts as good as you can. This is to say, to light attack, to barswap, to drink potions, to take synergies in-between the skill casts. The way it is done is to cast a light attack and instantly cast a skill after it. The skill animation will override the light attack animation, but the light attack still gets registered and still will do its damage. This leads to a rather rhythmic gameplay where you light attack, instantly press a skill after and then wait around a second to do it again. It will sound a bit like a heartbeat (bah-bam, the first short bah sound is the light attack cast, the bam part is the skill cast).
The second part is to keep as good of uptimes as you can. This means, you have all the potion passives, you drink the potions as soon as they come off the cooldown. That you cast the damage over time effects as close to running out as you can (exception: carve, because of the stacking mechanic, you want to cast it a little before it runs out, because you rather cast it while 5 seconds are still remaining than to let it run out and lose the 32 seconds you would've gained when casting it again).
Damage per second.
Takes power, eg uptimes, rotation, skills combo; and speed, how fast you can do that, within the cool down limits of course.
Like torque vs km/h
Edited by Pelanora on March 2, 2023 8:08AM0 -
ZOS_KrakenadminHello!
We have moved this thread to the Players Helping Players category to better align with the topic.
If you have any question, feel free to reach out to a Mod.Edited by ZOS_Kraken on March 2, 2023 5:47PM0 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »There’s a serious problem with power creep in this game when 100k is considered normal. I remember when Maw was released and people were saying 30k for Vet Hard mode was considered decent with 50k being top tier. Now we have builds that are approaching triple those numbers. It’s actually sad the game has become so easy and is the main reason for this 100k meta cancer that ruins build diversity. It’s a number chase game and it is devolving this game into a mad rush to finish content as fast as possible. Soon this game will be like Path of Exile if the devs don’t reign power creep in balance things out properly.
When Maw of Lorkhaj was released, we only had 3 and 6 mil dummies. I was a DPS in one of the very first MOL HM clears. I was pulling right around 40k at the time on the 6 mil. No way I am doing triple that today. Yes we have power creep, but we also measure DPS on Trial dummies these days that give nearly every possible buff imaginable.
Dont get me wrong, that is a good thing because it allows for objective comparison of parses from player to player and class to class, but that is really the only context a trial parse is useful for. Nobody expects a 100k trial dummy parse to equate to 100 DPS on every fight, nor does it. Some power creep is good. It took the best groups nearly a year to clear VMOL HM. Power creep allows difficult content to be accessible by and more players as time goes by. Certainly it needs managed, but I think the first time I hit 100k on a trial dummy was less than a year after it was released. Sure I can do more now that we are i think 4 years down the road, but the creep is not as much as people make it out to be. Its definitely easier to hit 100k these days because there are a lot more ways to do it, but the top of the top is not that much higher than it was a few years ago.
To the OP:
Didnt read every comment, but a few pieces of advice.
-If you are only going to play with one bar, get an oakensoul ring. You are at a serious disadvantage without one. With only 5 skills, you need the buffs from the ring to be competitive.
-Oakensoul means you need to drop one piece of Skoria, which is okay (the two piece buff just aint that strong anyways). One piece Skoria (penetration) is still probably your best bet for a lot of content, but on a raid dummy or a really good trial group, you will want to swap it for one piece slime craw (crit chance)
-Ditch Coral Riptide. This is basically the stamina version of Bahsei. It can be strong, but it requires micro managing your stam which is the last thing you should be worried about at your skill level. You really need to know how to dump stam and hold it there to make this effective.
-Orders Wrath should almost certainly be one of your DPS sets unless you run with a very min/maxed trial group. You may find yourself slightly over the crit damage cap on a trial dummy, but unless you have gold coming out of your ears, build for content first. Make a parse setup when you have excess mats to spend.
-Kinras is a solid set. Its one of those that might not be the absolute best for a solo parse, but its very good for any group. Kinras, OW, Oakensoul, one piece monster is a perfectly fine setup for DPS. Use your monster set as the flex piece to make small adjustments.
-Get off that dummy. Its useless. You can certainly practice on a 3 or 6 mil, but parse on a Raid Dummy when you get the hang of things. Also, the info tab in CMX is far more useful to determine what is going wrong then the page you posted. Most raid groups require both pages if you need to submit a parse. Good news, it looks like your weaving is decent. 19 weaves in 21 seconds aint bad assuming its one LA per skill.
-If you want to maximize damage from a stat standpoint, you do need a good understanding of both the penetration cap and the crit damage cap. This video explains both really well, specifically in the context of what you need to max both without going over on a trial dummy. Every trial group will be a little bit different, so you may want to make adjustments here and there, but the basic info doesnt change. Most good raid groups wont be too far off. For the most part, Crit damage and Pen can be balanced with the number of light vs medium armor pieces you are wearing. CP and other unique gear will come into play sometimes as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCUsq3yNfv0 Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on March 2, 2023 6:50PM3 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Dps is about speed. Speed takes power, but it takes other things too.
What are your hitting for? Maybe you're just not quick enough but your build is passable?
I think it is misleading to say dps would be about speed, since DPS is more about the rhythm and keeping good uptimes on things. One cannot cast skills faster than once a second, because skills share a 1 second global cooldown. If you cast skills faster than that, they queue, meaning the next skill will automatically fire after the cooldown ends, overriding any other action you took.
When using non-heavy attack builds, you want to use that second between casts as good as you can. This is to say, to light attack, to barswap, to drink potions, to take synergies in-between the skill casts. The way it is done is to cast a light attack and instantly cast a skill after it. The skill animation will override the light attack animation, but the light attack still gets registered and still will do its damage. This leads to a rather rhythmic gameplay where you light attack, instantly press a skill after and then wait around a second to do it again. It will sound a bit like a heartbeat (bah-bam, the first short bah sound is the light attack cast, the bam part is the skill cast).
The second part is to keep as good of uptimes as you can. This means, you have all the potion passives, you drink the potions as soon as they come off the cooldown. That you cast the damage over time effects as close to running out as you can (exception: carve, because of the stacking mechanic, you want to cast it a little before it runs out, because you rather cast it while 5 seconds are still remaining than to let it run out and lose the 32 seconds you would've gained when casting it again).
Damage per second.
Takes power, eg uptimes, rotation, skills combo; and speed, how fast you can do that, within the cool down limits of course.
Like torque vs km/h
Going to agree with @aaisoaho
Speed is the wrong way to thing about it. I think you are mostly saying the same thing, but I would not use the term speed because it implies faster the better. I think Pace or Rhythm are the correct terms here. You cannot cast more than one LA and one skill per each global cooldown, which is 1 second. Going any faster than that will result in a DPS loss as either your skill or LA wont fire.
To the OP, that is one of the reasons that the info tab on CMX is so useful. It will show the average pace of your skill casts and the number of LAs that you miss. Its the first place you look when analyzing a parse. Anything over 0.8 is good, anything over .9 is great, anything over about .95 is elite. over 1.0 is impossible. So pure speed is not the answer.
Also, yes, getting the right gear does matter, but DPS in this game comes down to ROTATION, ROTATION, ROTATION! It takes practice.
Another thing I will rant about. Yes we are in a hybrid meta, but I really think that when first learning, magic is easier. It allows for streamlining of your resource management. Run Ghastly Eye Bowl for max magic+magic regen, and magic regen potions (oakensoul means you can dont need expensive spell power pots). It also allows you to swap your daggers for a staff and get some range when needed. Its a little strange, but on a DK, you do still want Weapon Damage glyphs on your jewerly because of the mountain blessing passive. Regardless of which way you go, your attributes, food, and glyphs need to all be the same, either all magic or all stam. Your skills for DPS should probably be something like this.
-Molten whip: spam away when everything else is ticking. Can swap to force pulse when running a staff for range.
-Burning Embers: Powerful single target DOT. Can run venomous claw if going pure stam or for a bit more damage, but Burning embers is also a powerful heal. You can always recast it early for a burst heal, which is really really strong
-Engulfing Flames: Conal DOT. Can also run Noxious breath, either if going pure stam or if you need a source of major breach (any tank will provide that buff). Engulfing Flames buffs flame damage, so in a group or on a raid dummy, this is almost certainly the better option.
-Eruption: Nice long Ground DOT, also way to proc Mountain Blessing Passive for minor brutality.
-Flex: Flames of oblivion for another single target DOT, Unstable Wall if running a staff or Deadly Cloak with Daggers. Could also be a shield or a burst heal. Most good builds should have a flex spot.
-Standard of Might. Really strong ultimate. If running a staff, the Destro ult can also be good for a lot of trash fights.
Basically, keep up your 4 DOTs, cast ultimate when its up, and otherwise whip baby whip! Chug cheap magic potions on cooldown.Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on March 2, 2023 6:00PM3 -
Pelanora✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yea i hear you on rythym vs frantic mashing, yea there's a cool down, but it's still damage per second. It's still increased by reaching a certain speed, and reduced by taking it way easy on the firings. It's still a measure of what you did, divided by the time it took you to do it.
Rotation yea, but proc sets even more so.Edited by Pelanora on March 7, 2023 7:17AM0 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yea i hear you on rythym vs frantic mashing, yea there's a cool down, but it's still damage per second. It's still increased by reaching a certain speed, and reduced by taking it way easy on the firings. It's still a measure of what you did, divided by the time it took you to do it.
Rotation yea, but proc sets even more so.
Nothing could be further from the truth. Rotation matters way more than any gear you are wearing. Give a really good DPS stat based gear, not procs, and they will run laps around your average player no matter what they are wearing. As long as your gear passes the smell test, rotation is 10 times more important.4 -
aaisoaho✭✭✭✭✭I have to agree with @Oreyn_Bearclaw here. If you have a decent gear setup and a solid rotation with good uptimes, upgrading your gear to best possible loadout is at max like 10k increase in DPS. But if you have the best gear but rotation is all over the place and uptimes are thus bad, learning the rotation better will increase your DPS with several 10ks.
Let me show you an example of a parse from a parsing competition my guild held way back. In it, everyone had to use the same gear that was really unoptimised. The winner still did 55k+ dps, which is the same as those with a bad rotation with a good gear. The screenshots are from the January 2022.
Of course, by swapping the gear to the best sets would at the minimum double their DPS. But Oreyn already stated "if the gear pass the smell check", which implies the gear is already somewhat close to the best ones out there. If this gear would have passed the smell check, the parse would probably already be over 100k, and by swapping from decent sets to great sets, the parse would have only increased 10-20k from the 100k mark.2 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I've watched many content streamers who disagree with you there
If there are content streamers specifically saying that your gear is more important than your rotation, I would frankly stop following them.
Again, if you take an elite DPS and with meta gear, and lets just say they pull 125k. They can easily be north of 110k in 20 different combos of very easy to obtain gear. I wont say gear doesn't matter on the margins, of course it does. Now, if you give them all white gear in sets that make no sense for DPS, yeah, they might only pull 50 or 60K DPS, but that is not what we are talking about. There are so many sets that are within a few percent of what is deemed meta, that chasing a certain gear set is not the answer most people are really looking for to improve their damage. This is not a game where you can slap on the best gear and expect to immediately compete, not even close.
Flipside, take someone that is in reasonable DPS starter gear, something like OW, Julianos, maybe a monster set. and maybe they are pulling 65k. If I handed them gold Whorl, Pillar, Kilt, sure, they might see a bump to 75 or 80, but its their rotation keeping them below triple digits, not their gear.
The difference between min/maxed meta gear, and reasonable starter gear is probably in the neighborhood of 10-20k. The difference between a good and bad rotation is easily several times that.3 -
boi_anachronism_✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭This is a common mistake that newer players constantly make. Meta is not going to work as well for new players as they require significant skill and most new players still don't grasp a lot of mechanics which is normal. I said the same when new folks were wanting bahsei. You will get much better results from straight stat sets like gourmand or orders wrath at that level then something like coral which requires you to have excellent resource management and kinra which requires you to consistently upkeep stacks. Don't try to run before you can walk. You can still hit 80k+ with pure stat sets. 😊Edited by boi_anachronism_ on March 8, 2023 5:22PM1 -
Soarora✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭boi_anachronism_ wrote: »This is a common mistake that newer players constantly make. Meta is not going to work as well for new players as they require significant skill and most new players still don't grasp a lot of mechanics which is normal. I said the same when new folks were wanting bahsei. You will get much better results from straight stat sets like gourmand or orders wrath at that level then something like coral which requires you to have excellent resource management and kinra which requires you to consistently upkeep stacks. Don't try to run before you can walk. You can still hit 80k+ with pure stat sets. 😊
OP’s weaving actually seems pretty decent to me, so la sets could be used. But you do have a good point in general. Also yeah, bahsei and coral are a Pain. I only will dare use bahsei if my sustain is already bad.
PC/NA Dungeoneer (Tank/DPS/Heal), Trialist (DPS/Tank/Heal), and amateur Battlegrounder (DPS) with a passion for The Elder Scrolls lore- CP 2000+
- Warden Healer - Arcanist Healer - Warden Brittleden - Stamarc - Sorc Tank - Necro Tank - Templar Tank - Arcanist Tank
- Trials: 9/12 HMs - 3/8 Tris
- Dungeons: 30/30 HMs - 24/24 Tris
- All Veterans completed!
View my builds!
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Pelanora✭✭✭✭✭
✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »
I don't want to argue with Oreyn, I respect the wisdom and experience here.
I just want to say, your quote, that's what they, in the context i heard it, and I, were getting at. Not white gear obvs but, decent gear vs not decent- may as well be white.
The conversation here has jumped to the benefits of meta gear and new players chasing it, but rather i had in mind just that decent gear, with a proc, is useful, and if you stumble in rotations or are still being the hang of them, they can help.
I take your point here: The difference between min/maxed meta gear, and reasonable starter gear is probably in the neighborhood of 10-20k. The difference between a good and bad rotation is easily several times that.
But it's not either or, is it. Not maybe meta, as that's behind trial walls, but better than total starter gear, helps.Edited by Pelanora on March 13, 2023 5:37AM0