emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

I'm not sure why some people are getting hung up over what it means to be evil when 99% of people asking for an ''evil companion'' mean one who doesn't lose rapport for stealing/killing innocents. That's even what the OP is requesting. There are plenty of ways to make a companion like that.

Thing is, they way I see it, is that we already have a companion that fits that role. You don't get negative rapport for killing innocents/stealing from Ember - she doesn't care. It doesn't really fit her personality but due to demand for such a thing she is currently the companion who doesn't react to more serious crime acts. But the complaints still roll in because she prefers you not to get caught by the guards. That she doesn't care about murder and thieving doesn't appear to be enough for those requesting that very trait.

It's been a while since I played the Dark Brotherhood questline but I'm sure even they're against getting the attention of a city's guards. An assassin character may not judge you for killing innocents but realistically they're not going to love you getting repeatidly slaughted by Bob the Lazy Gate-Guard because you took out half the town at his feet.

What is often requested is not simply a companion who doesn't care about your crime sprees but one who actively rewards you for doing so even when you fail at it. A sociopathic toady.

MreeBiPolar wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Ember is ok with stealing but I had her with me while sneaking around a restricted area for a quest and if an NPC even glanced my way I lost rapport. It was getting so bad I just put her away.

It doesn't matter that she likes stealing if she is going to be so judgemental if it's not done perfectly every time.

She's not judgmental, she panics at getting caught. Why people think rapport loss is necessarily some kind of "holier-than-thou" attitude? It's just companion's discomfort, whatever causes it and whatever shape it takes.

Some players seem to take 'judgement' from companions dead seriously. I've never had a friend who hundred percent loved everything I loved and gushed with enthusiasm at everything I did - that is why companions have dislikes (and really minor ones most of the time) because it makes them more rounded as characters.

It's realistic to Ember's character as a former street kid that she'd want to avoid getting thrown in jail or worse. The player character can die and resurrect indefinitely but in lore your companion is a perfectly ordinary person and can die. Makes sense they'd want to avoid that.

SilverBride wrote: »

MreeBiPolar wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Ember is ok with stealing but I had her with me while sneaking around a restricted area for a quest and if an NPC even glanced my way I lost rapport. It was getting so bad I just put her away.

It doesn't matter that she likes stealing if she is going to be so judgemental if it's not done perfectly every time.

She's not judgmental, she panics at getting caught. Why people think rapport loss is necessarily some kind of "holier-than-thou" attitude? It's just companion's discomfort, whatever causes it and whatever shape it takes.

So she is panicked and that's why there is a -10 rapport every time an NPC even glances in my direction? I thought it would be fun to bring her along on heists and quests that require sneaking around because she likes that kind of thing, but it's not worth it if she continues to remove rapport rather than accepting that sometimes things don't go perfectly.

Pretty much this. Hence why I prefer a companion who likes doing negative things (stealing and killing) and gains positive rapport for it. Failing that, at least don’t give us negative rapport for getting caught. But would get it from paying the guards a fine.

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

Treselegant wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

I'm not sure why some people are getting hung up over what it means to be evil when 99% of people asking for an ''evil companion'' mean one who doesn't lose rapport for stealing/killing innocents. That's even what the OP is requesting. There are plenty of ways to make a companion like that.

Thing is, they way I see it, is that we already have a companion that fits that role. You don't get negative rapport for killing innocents/stealing from Ember - she doesn't care. It doesn't really fit her personality but due to demand for such a thing she is currently the companion who doesn't react to more serious crime acts. But the complaints still roll in because she prefers you not to get caught by the guards. That she doesn't care about murder and thieving doesn't appear to be enough for those requesting that very trait.

It's been a while since I played the Dark Brotherhood questline but I'm sure even they're against getting the attention of a city's guards. An assassin character may not judge you for killing innocents but realistically they're not going to love you getting repeatidly slaughted by Bob the Lazy Gate-Guard because you took out half the town at his feet.

What is often requested is not simply a companion who doesn't care about your crime sprees but one who actively rewards you for doing so even when you fail at it. A sociopathic toady.

Oh that's kind of weird then. I thought Ember didn't care about witnessing stealing but did care about witnessing murder. I only did her unlock quest and never used her. I never would've guessed that about her as a character.


As a side note I want to be clear that I think it's fair for people to want/expect a dark themed companion who is okay with/likes theft/murder. Like I can definitely see why people wouldn't be satisfied with Ember. IMO she was a weird choice of a companion to be the one not bothered by crimes--that is, if they end up never making another crime-friendly companion, which I don't think will be the case, but yeah.

I don't mind the idea of a complex, interesting character who has their reasons for being ok with crime/murder but also has their boundaries. There is a way to write such a character but whether we will get that over Cicero 2.0 with added twirly mustache - I don't know. I suspect though there will always be threads like these popping up because what is considered an 'evil' or dark character seems to vary between 'well-thought out idea for character' to 'a robot'.

Treselegant wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Treselegant wrote: »

Those who want an 'evil' companion seem the most difficult of players to please. Right now we have Ember as the most 'evil' - a companion who will squeal in delight at everything you do and then give one of her many many compliments about how great a person you are regardless of your morally dubious acts and yet she is still complained about because she doesn't like fishing!

The kind of 'perfect' companion that usually gets brought up in these discussions is a companion that is part fashion dummy and part compliment dispensary. An AI combat bot with no dislikes and loves everything you do. Anything beyond that is usually disregarded as disruptive to the 'evil' playstyle.

Can you imagine a sociopathic assassin character loving your long fishing sessions or being sympathetic to you getting caught by guards? Or maybe your 'evil vampire' character hates you helping people? You can already smell the complaints from here . It often seems that the only way to have these sort of characters without player complaint is to strip them of their dislikes and make them love everything you do - which reduces the already threadbare companion system to practically nothing.

Haha, agreed, although I don’t think it’s specifically players who want evil companions who complain about their dislikes, as exemplified by fishing. That’s not even something you can accidentally do like grabbing a bug, so how is it an issue to dismiss Ember first???

I like companions having likes and dislikes, and only wish it was more developed to be effected more by quests and interactions with them, and that rapport would change some of their banter lines too.

The compliments and praise are a bit much, I agree. I take it as her being eager to please or get on your good side rather than sincerely meant.

Not always definitely, I think it's pretty accepted that some companion reactions need a second look, but there is a theme when we have these sort of conversations about 'evil' companions - dislikes or disapproval is 'punishing' in some way. That having a companion that dislikes a particular activity is stopping the player from the engaging in it and therefore stunting their playstyle. That a character who dislikes murder is more 'immersion breaking' than one who laughs with glee as you knife a random shopper in the Daggerfall market. Noone can have a conversation about companions on the forum without seeing this argument repeated ad nauseum.

I can't help but see Ember's chaotic reactions as an attempt to placate this part of the community even when it doesn't match up with the characterisation set up in her quests. Same with Isobel being weirdly ok with being friends with a murderer. It's because people complained they were being punished. Fear of player backlash is driving companion design and that is a terrible way to create characters.

The only character I can think of which would fit the role of 'evil companion' asked for in the game would be Cicero in Skryim and well, there's a reason why even many Brotherhood aligned characters stab him to death.

After seeing more player comments, especially on a Twitch stream where people where, uh, less filtered, I find myself agreeing with you. Players want to go around RPing terrible people (murdering civilians cannot be called anything else) and be praised for it? How is that “immersive” or anything really?

It’s valid to want characters aligned with different activities and maybe the rapport system could be improved or done differently but I really don’t get the vitriol over companions disliking something. Not all of my characters care so much what others think of them and loot thieves’ troves and collect bugs no matter the company, and to me, it’s more immersive that the companions are besties with ALL my characters. As I’ve said elsewhere, I only wish there were more variation and specificity in what companions say and that it would change with rapport…

I really do think a dog or other animal companion would be a good idea — a companion who has no comments and who only gains rapport or perhaps is already maxed. The other option would be some sort of sycophant who never complains and praises whatever the player does. I would never unlock such a companion.

Beyond that, I hope that ZOS will make more companions that seem like actual characters with their own values, likes and dislikes, and goals.

Well...

As one that has tried to RP as an EVIL Vestige I think that until we have a truly EVIL Vestige we mosdef are not getting a truly EVIL compa, thoughts?

No - I don’t want ‘evil’ themed companions. Nor ‘good’ companions.

Even using those labels is an oxymoron. There are ‘good’ and ‘evil’ NPCs but no such that as ‘good’ or ‘evil’ companions.

The mere fact they are called companions = they align with your interests.

So if my char is a backstabbing DB citizen killer right after picking all their pockets of loot, my companions are fine with that or they wouldn’t be companions. Or vice versa, if my char can’t stand killing non combatant citizens, then neither does my companion have a source of ‘rapport’ completely opposite to my char interests.

So to me the ideal solution isn’t making more companions that aren’t companions at all, but just make all sources of rapport neutral. No negative rapport from ‘good’ or ‘evil’ aligned actions, nor positive rapport from those categories. Unless you want to call doing a mage guild daily as good/evil, I think it’s more a neutral action - so make all companions, past and present, reward you for whatever arbitrary neutral actions we already have plenty of, and zero negative rapport from dubiously and equally arbitrary moral compass reactions that zero companions should have because they wouldn’t be companions if opposite aligned anyways.

Yes.
I would love to have Elam Drals from the Dark Brotherhood as a companion. I'd just listen to him talk all day.

That's brings up an interesting idea actually. What if you did so many quests for some characters they became your companions? Maybe Razum-dar could be your companion.