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Why can't we just pick what are race traits will be?
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Somber97866✭✭✭✭✭You never know @TaSheen . Things have been changed before due to forums. Actually many times. Got to have hope1 -
boi_anachronism_✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »
New players could also just create another character. Generally, playing the game is not considered a punishment.
Obnoxious mount, guild skill and skyshard grind is a punishment on their own
I think that says more about your mindset and approach to playing ESO than it does how we're intended to play this MMORPG.
Of course, for players who feel as you do, ZOS has since added the option to pay for the convenience of quick mount lessons, skill trees, and skyshards.
So you can play or you can pay. In neither case have you made a strong argument for why it would benefit ZOS to make swapping racial passives an in-game shrine that costs gold like attributes.
But if the dps difference only matters when doing difficult content, aren’t they at a point that it’s become too character committed to just reroll?
At that point they time invested a lot of hours into that character. It seems a bit flippant to just tell them to make a new character.
“Hey sorry you picked the race you wanted to play and not the one that’s good for endgame back you first started up the game. vMoL sure is difficult, right?
Anyway who could have guessed you already made a huge error that would only affect you at endgame, when you were at the character creation screen, eh? Don’t worry you can just start again from scratch and roll a new character, or pay us for your mistake.
I am sure your trial group will be patient while you level and gear up. ”
I mean I've invested years into my blade and that was when I was it doing any pvp where it was actually doing well, I only did pve. At the time it was objectively one of the marginal classes for end game falling way behind sorcs who easily hit 130k at the high end where blades were typically hitting 100k maybe a little above at the high end. I didn't reroll my class and I have no intention to even if they nerfed them into the ground next patch. Same with race I almost exclusively play dark elves with the exception of an alt I rarely use be it in old school elder scrolls games or eso. If they took every racial passive away I would still use them and I play at a vet achievement level.0 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭boi_anachronism_ wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »
New players could also just create another character. Generally, playing the game is not considered a punishment.
Obnoxious mount, guild skill and skyshard grind is a punishment on their own
I think that says more about your mindset and approach to playing ESO than it does how we're intended to play this MMORPG.
Of course, for players who feel as you do, ZOS has since added the option to pay for the convenience of quick mount lessons, skill trees, and skyshards.
So you can play or you can pay. In neither case have you made a strong argument for why it would benefit ZOS to make swapping racial passives an in-game shrine that costs gold like attributes.
But if the dps difference only matters when doing difficult content, aren’t they at a point that it’s become too character committed to just reroll?
At that point they time invested a lot of hours into that character. It seems a bit flippant to just tell them to make a new character.
“Hey sorry you picked the race you wanted to play and not the one that’s good for endgame back you first started up the game. vMoL sure is difficult, right?
Anyway who could have guessed you already made a huge error that would only affect you at endgame, when you were at the character creation screen, eh? Don’t worry you can just start again from scratch and roll a new character, or pay us for your mistake.
I am sure your trial group will be patient while you level and gear up. ”
I mean I've invested years into my blade and that was when I was it doing any pvp where it was actually doing well, I only did pve. At the time it was objectively one of the marginal classes for end game falling way behind sorcs who easily hit 130k at the high end where blades were typically hitting 100k maybe a little above at the high end. I didn't reroll my class and I have no intention to even if they nerfed them into the ground next patch. Same with race I almost exclusively play dark elves with the exception of an alt I rarely use be it in old school elder scrolls games or eso. If they took every racial passive away I would still use them and I play at a vet achievement level.
Well class balance is a different thing entirely.
But you were lucky that your preferred race (dark elves) are pretty much great for any stam or Mag DD role. They are a powerful, versatile race.
Other races are not as well thought out.3 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, the best race is not only (3-8%) better in the hands of a top player.
A mid tier or low skilled player will also see a performance increase by switching to a better performing race.
But to what effect? Will it actually make a routinely significant difference? I think that's the point that is typically made.
Well it depends on what you call “routine”.
I have done trials that many would consider difficult, but mostly I just do dailies and light housing. Is that considered routine?
Would 5% make a difference for a player doing a solo normal arena? Is that considered routine?
Would 5% difference help a player doing a vet version of the more recent vet dungeons? Is that considered routine?
Would an extra 5% have saved a player in a PvP fight? Is that considered routine?
I kind of get the feeling reading this thread that every player doing something even remotely difficult is doing endgame material and should “know better” or “it’s on them” that they are using a “bad” race.
Like redguard and bosmer are only intended for “casual play” by design.
Because it seems like the posters here think that since all races can do overland content. All races are basically fine. And the 5% difference is only seen in this hidden netherworld of super high end point/time pushers.
But all of us have experienced deaths in this game when the boss or other player was close to death. Would an extra 5% have helped?
I wasn't referring to any particular content as "routine", I was referring to "a routinely significant difference" in the sense of "a regularly significant difference", as in an extra slight DPS or other racial boost might turn the tide in a very small number of encounters, but would it do so routinely?0 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, the best race is not only (3-8%) better in the hands of a top player.
A mid tier or low skilled player will also see a performance increase by switching to a better performing race.
But to what effect? Will it actually make a routinely significant difference? I think that's the point that is typically made.
Well it depends on what you call “routine”.
I have done trials that many would consider difficult, but mostly I just do dailies and light housing. Is that considered routine?
Would 5% make a difference for a player doing a solo normal arena? Is that considered routine?
Would 5% difference help a player doing a vet version of the more recent vet dungeons? Is that considered routine?
Would an extra 5% have saved a player in a PvP fight? Is that considered routine?
I kind of get the feeling reading this thread that every player doing something even remotely difficult is doing endgame material and should “know better” or “it’s on them” that they are using a “bad” race.
Like redguard and bosmer are only intended for “casual play” by design.
Because it seems like the posters here think that since all races can do overland content. All races are basically fine. And the 5% difference is only seen in this hidden netherworld of super high end point/time pushers.
But all of us have experienced deaths in this game when the boss or other player was close to death. Would an extra 5% have helped?
I wasn't referring to any particular content as "routine", I was referring to "a routinely significant difference" in the sense of "a regularly significant difference", as in an extra slight DPS or other racial boost might turn the tide in a very small number of encounters, but would it do so routinely?
Well many times a group will blow past a pve boss or a large group sill destroy other smaller groups in pvp. There 5% does not matter so much.
But if I “routinely” did solo arenas, or I “routinely” played solo pvp, 5% is a big advantage to have.
•••
Why are there so many players against the races having some kind of parity for all content? It just seems so strange to me that people are “pro” some races being significantly better than others. And yes, 5% is significant.
If you were charged 5% more at a gas station because of your car’s manufacturer, you would not be pleased by it. Yet a 5% tax on other players races seems fine for many players here.
How are dungeons balanced? Are they balanced assuming they all are using the better races performances? Do vet trials take into account the healers could be Bosmers?
It’s just really problematic to balance things with a disparity this large, and there are players here who think that is perfectly fine. It’s baffling to me.2 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, the best race is not only (3-8%) better in the hands of a top player.
A mid tier or low skilled player will also see a performance increase by switching to a better performing race.
But to what effect? Will it actually make a routinely significant difference? I think that's the point that is typically made.
Well it depends on what you call “routine”.
I have done trials that many would consider difficult, but mostly I just do dailies and light housing. Is that considered routine?
Would 5% make a difference for a player doing a solo normal arena? Is that considered routine?
Would 5% difference help a player doing a vet version of the more recent vet dungeons? Is that considered routine?
Would an extra 5% have saved a player in a PvP fight? Is that considered routine?
I kind of get the feeling reading this thread that every player doing something even remotely difficult is doing endgame material and should “know better” or “it’s on them” that they are using a “bad” race.
Like redguard and bosmer are only intended for “casual play” by design.
Because it seems like the posters here think that since all races can do overland content. All races are basically fine. And the 5% difference is only seen in this hidden netherworld of super high end point/time pushers.
But all of us have experienced deaths in this game when the boss or other player was close to death. Would an extra 5% have helped?
I wasn't referring to any particular content as "routine", I was referring to "a routinely significant difference" in the sense of "a regularly significant difference", as in an extra slight DPS or other racial boost might turn the tide in a very small number of encounters, but would it do so routinely?
Well many times a group will blow past a pve boss or a large group sill destroy other smaller groups in pvp. There 5% does not matter so much.
But if I “routinely” did solo arenas, or I “routinely” played solo pvp, 5% is a big advantage to have.
It would seem that you're still misunderstanding my meaning, but no matter.1 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It’s just really problematic to balance things with a disparity this large, and there are players here who think that is perfectly fine. It’s baffling to me.
It's because it's not actually that large for most people in most encounters. I have been playing the game since 2015, when consoles launched. It's been nearly 8 years since then. In the 8 years I've played and countless hours, I can recall only two incidents in which my race may have been a difference maker to success or failure. If I get a boss down to less than 5% health, it basically always dies. And if I somehow wipe it that low, we try again and get it done.
I can only recall two times where I had to leave, but we got so close and it didn't happen because of time constraints and I simply couldn't attempt it again until later.
As such, I have never felt limited by my character's race. It's never felt like a significant difference. Much more significant than a fraction of damage has been whether or not I know the mechanics of something in PVE and my barely existent skill in PvP.
The people who take issue seem to be focused on the numerical impact, which is objectively true. You guys are totally correct about the math.
The people who disagree seem to be focused on the impact in actual gameplay practice of their personal experience, IMO. I know that's my focus and it seems some others. Since the difference has felt negligible, I am more concerned about the immersion, preserving diversity, and staying true to the franchise than with gameplay.Edited by spartaxoxo on March 8, 2023 12:37AM0 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »It’s just really problematic to balance things with a disparity this large, and there are players here who think that is perfectly fine. It’s baffling to me.
It's because it's not actually that large for most people in most encounters. I have been playing the game since 2015, when consoles launched. It's been nearly 8 years since then. In the 8 years I've played and countless hours, I can recall only two incidents in which my race may have been a difference maker to success or failure. If I get a boss down to less than 5% health, it basically always dies. And if I somehow wipe it that low, we try again and get it done.
I can only recall two times where I had to leave, but we got so close and it didn't happen because of time constraints and I simply couldn't attempt it again until later.
As such, I have never felt limited by my character's race. It's never felt like a significant difference. Much more significant than a fraction of damage has been whether or not I know the mechanics of something in PVE and my barely existent skill in PvP.
The people who take issue seem to be focused on the numerical impact, which is objectively true. You guys are totally correct about the math.
The people who disagree seem to be focused on the impact in actual gameplay practice of their personal experience, IMO. I know that's my focus and it seems some others. Since the difference has felt negligible, I am more concerned about the immersion, preserving diversity, and staying true to the franchise than with gameplay.
And I have been playing even longer than that.
But you are kind of dodging the question, a 5% disparity is still a large disparity. Just because it does not affect you, you are against changing it even though it does affect other players? Is "Well it currently does not affect me" a good enough reason to oppose racial parity? If it does not affect you now, how will equaling up the races affect you in the future? If the answer is "It doesn't" Why keep the status quo?
"NB's can't enter houses!"
"Well I play a Sorc and it does not affect me, so I am against any change that will allow them to enter houses."
It's crazy.
2 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »It’s just really problematic to balance things with a disparity this large, and there are players here who think that is perfectly fine. It’s baffling to me.
It's because it's not actually that large for most people in most encounters. I have been playing the game since 2015, when consoles launched. It's been nearly 8 years since then. In the 8 years I've played and countless hours, I can recall only two incidents in which my race may have been a difference maker to success or failure. If I get a boss down to less than 5% health, it basically always dies. And if I somehow wipe it that low, we try again and get it done.
I can only recall two times where I had to leave, but we got so close and it didn't happen because of time constraints and I simply couldn't attempt it again until later.
As such, I have never felt limited by my character's race. It's never felt like a significant difference. Much more significant than a fraction of damage has been whether or not I know the mechanics of something in PVE and my barely existent skill in PvP.
The people who take issue seem to be focused on the numerical impact, which is objectively true. You guys are totally correct about the math.
The people who disagree seem to be focused on the impact in actual gameplay practice of their personal experience, IMO. I know that's my focus and it seems some others. Since the difference has felt negligible, I am more concerned about the immersion, preserving diversity, and staying true to the franchise than with gameplay.
And I have been playing even longer than that.
But you are kind of dodging the question, a 5% disparity is still a large disparity. Just because it does not affect you, you are against changing it even though it does affect other players? Is "Well it currently does not affect me" a good enough reason to oppose racial parity? If it does not affect you now, how will equaling up the races affect you in the future? If the answer is "It doesn't" Why keep the status quo?
"NB's can't enter houses!"
"Well I play a Sorc and it does not affect me, so I am against any change that will allow them to enter houses."
It's crazy.
5% is just a number, what makes it large or not is context. I don't agree that it's a large disparity in actual practice.
I think it really only effects a very small amount of players, and even then it's easily remedied with a race change token. I would support making those a free item instead of paid. I do think it's lame it's a crown store thing.
I want them to remain distinct because it's more lore friendly (one of the appeals of elder scrolls games for more than two decades now has been each race is unique), immersive, and lends to more build diversity. Everyone would have the same best traits if they could just be picked at will out of a smorgasbord of offerings.
Edited by spartaxoxo on March 8, 2023 1:10AM2 -
TaSheen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Surely, "race change token", @spartaxoxo - not class change?______________________________________________________
"But even in books, the heroes make mistakes, and there isn't always a happy ending." Mercedes Lackey, Into the West
PC NA, PC EU (non steam)- four accounts, many alts....0 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, the best race is not only (3-8%) better in the hands of a top player.
A mid tier or low skilled player will also see a performance increase by switching to a better performing race.
But to what effect? Will it actually make a routinely significant difference? I think that's the point that is typically made.
Well it depends on what you call “routine”.
I have done trials that many would consider difficult, but mostly I just do dailies and light housing. Is that considered routine?
Would 5% make a difference for a player doing a solo normal arena? Is that considered routine?
Would 5% difference help a player doing a vet version of the more recent vet dungeons? Is that considered routine?
Would an extra 5% have saved a player in a PvP fight? Is that considered routine?
I kind of get the feeling reading this thread that every player doing something even remotely difficult is doing endgame material and should “know better” or “it’s on them” that they are using a “bad” race.
Like redguard and bosmer are only intended for “casual play” by design.
Because it seems like the posters here think that since all races can do overland content. All races are basically fine. And the 5% difference is only seen in this hidden netherworld of super high end point/time pushers.
But all of us have experienced deaths in this game when the boss or other player was close to death. Would an extra 5% have helped?
I wasn't referring to any particular content as "routine", I was referring to "a routinely significant difference" in the sense of "a regularly significant difference", as in an extra slight DPS or other racial boost might turn the tide in a very small number of encounters, but would it do so routinely?
Well many times a group will blow past a pve boss or a large group sill destroy other smaller groups in pvp. There 5% does not matter so much.
But if I “routinely” did solo arenas, or I “routinely” played solo pvp, 5% is a big advantage to have.
It would seem that you're still misunderstanding my meaning, but no matter.
I thought I did.
Will 5% change affect a player everyday? Probably not.
Will a 5% change affect a player every week? Maybe.
Will a 5% change affect a player every month? Probably.
Would 5% extra character durability give a player time to hit a health potion? Possibly.
Or in a trial, if the player was able to keep themselves up with that extra 5% heal, maybe another player would not have had to stop and rez them? But the boss died anyway... So did it affect the group or no?
Would 5% extra dps have helped a player kill that add at a wb, before it killed the player? Well they self rezzed and other players downed the boss. So in the long run the boss died, but maybe the player would have survived with more armor durability (less repairs). Does that count?
5% could be affecting a player everyday, and not really realizing it. Their character can feel natural and they may not know what their character would be like if it was 5% better, so their perception might be it does not affect them.2 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »It’s just really problematic to balance things with a disparity this large, and there are players here who think that is perfectly fine. It’s baffling to me.
It's because it's not actually that large for most people in most encounters. I have been playing the game since 2015, when consoles launched. It's been nearly 8 years since then. In the 8 years I've played and countless hours, I can recall only two incidents in which my race may have been a difference maker to success or failure. If I get a boss down to less than 5% health, it basically always dies. And if I somehow wipe it that low, we try again and get it done.
I can only recall two times where I had to leave, but we got so close and it didn't happen because of time constraints and I simply couldn't attempt it again until later.
As such, I have never felt limited by my character's race. It's never felt like a significant difference. Much more significant than a fraction of damage has been whether or not I know the mechanics of something in PVE and my barely existent skill in PvP.
The people who take issue seem to be focused on the numerical impact, which is objectively true. You guys are totally correct about the math.
The people who disagree seem to be focused on the impact in actual gameplay practice of their personal experience, IMO. I know that's my focus and it seems some others. Since the difference has felt negligible, I am more concerned about the immersion, preserving diversity, and staying true to the franchise than with gameplay.
And I have been playing even longer than that.
But you are kind of dodging the question, a 5% disparity is still a large disparity. Just because it does not affect you, you are against changing it even though it does affect other players? Is "Well it currently does not affect me" a good enough reason to oppose racial parity? If it does not affect you now, how will equaling up the races affect you in the future? If the answer is "It doesn't" Why keep the status quo?
"NB's can't enter houses!"
"Well I play a Sorc and it does not affect me, so I am against any change that will allow them to enter houses."
It's crazy.
5% is just a number, what makes it large or not is context. I don't agree that it's a large disparity in actual practice.
I think it really only effects a very small amount of players, and even then it's easily remedied with a race change token. I would support making those a free item instead of paid. I do think it's lame it's a crown store thing.
I want them to remain distinct because it's more lore friendly (one of the appeals of elder scrolls games for more than two decades now has been each race is unique), immersive, and lends to more build diversity. Everyone would have the same best traits if they could just be picked at will out of a smorgasbord of offerings.
I have moved past picking race passives. Race passives would not have to be picked if the current race passives were just done better. (I said that a while back.)
They can still be distinct but they also need to perform equally (or at least more equally). A racial can't be "This race just plays the game superior than other races."1 -
Somber97866✭✭✭✭✭Look missing out on 300 or so magic and /or spell damage is like not wearing the fifth piece of julionos or hundings. You can't say it doesn't matter. It does. Race is a big deal endgame I don't care what the nay sayers are screaming. They're full it3
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MudcrabAttack✭✭✭✭✭Looking beyond achievement titles, this game has personalities / cosmetics tied to speed run achievements. One could point out that top end players can get through with more than 15 out of 30 minutes to spare, but what about those who aren’t pros and struggle to finish in time? 1-1/2 minutes is a lot of time when they’re down to the wire. Race routinely matters to them more whether they are aware of it or not.1 -
Agenericname✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No, the best race is not only (3-8%) better in the hands of a top player.
A mid tier or low skilled player will also see a performance increase by switching to a better performing race.
But to what effect? Will it actually make a routinely significant difference? I think that's the point that is typically made.
Well it depends on what you call “routine”.
I have done trials that many would consider difficult, but mostly I just do dailies and light housing. Is that considered routine?
Would 5% make a difference for a player doing a solo normal arena? Is that considered routine?
Would 5% difference help a player doing a vet version of the more recent vet dungeons? Is that considered routine?
Would an extra 5% have saved a player in a PvP fight? Is that considered routine?
I kind of get the feeling reading this thread that every player doing something even remotely difficult is doing endgame material and should “know better” or “it’s on them” that they are using a “bad” race.
Like redguard and bosmer are only intended for “casual play” by design.
Because it seems like the posters here think that since all races can do overland content. All races are basically fine. And the 5% difference is only seen in this hidden netherworld of super high end point/time pushers.
But all of us have experienced deaths in this game when the boss or other player was close to death. Would an extra 5% have helped?
I wasn't referring to any particular content as "routine", I was referring to "a routinely significant difference" in the sense of "a regularly significant difference", as in an extra slight DPS or other racial boost might turn the tide in a very small number of encounters, but would it do so routinely?
How are dungeons balanced? Are they balanced assuming they all are using the better races performances? Do vet trials take into account the healers could be Bosmers?
It’s just really problematic to balance things with a disparity this large, and there are players here who think that is perfectly fine. It’s baffling to me.
Dungeons arent tuned to high DPS. The amount of damage needed for most of them, even the hard modes, is considerably, or even drastically, lower than the highest. Far enough below that an off meta race could pull it off. You could probably make an argument that the last 2 have some of the more severe damage checks, but historically you can do them with any race in any role.
Solo arenas are the same way. If youre going for a score, then sure, it could matter. If youre going for a clear, trifecta in the case of vVH, or Flawless in vMA, off meta races can do those.
2 -
boi_anachronism_✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭boi_anachronism_ wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »
New players could also just create another character. Generally, playing the game is not considered a punishment.
Obnoxious mount, guild skill and skyshard grind is a punishment on their own
I think that says more about your mindset and approach to playing ESO than it does how we're intended to play this MMORPG.
Of course, for players who feel as you do, ZOS has since added the option to pay for the convenience of quick mount lessons, skill trees, and skyshards.
So you can play or you can pay. In neither case have you made a strong argument for why it would benefit ZOS to make swapping racial passives an in-game shrine that costs gold like attributes.
But if the dps difference only matters when doing difficult content, aren’t they at a point that it’s become too character committed to just reroll?
At that point they time invested a lot of hours into that character. It seems a bit flippant to just tell them to make a new character.
“Hey sorry you picked the race you wanted to play and not the one that’s good for endgame back you first started up the game. vMoL sure is difficult, right?
Anyway who could have guessed you already made a huge error that would only affect you at endgame, when you were at the character creation screen, eh? Don’t worry you can just start again from scratch and roll a new character, or pay us for your mistake.
I am sure your trial group will be patient while you level and gear up. ”
I mean I've invested years into my blade and that was when I was it doing any pvp where it was actually doing well, I only did pve. At the time it was objectively one of the marginal classes for end game falling way behind sorcs who easily hit 130k at the high end where blades were typically hitting 100k maybe a little above at the high end. I didn't reroll my class and I have no intention to even if they nerfed them into the ground next patch. Same with race I almost exclusively play dark elves with the exception of an alt I rarely use be it in old school elder scrolls games or eso. If they took every racial passive away I would still use them and I play at a vet achievement level.
Well class balance is a different thing entirely.
But you were lucky that your preferred race (dark elves) are pretty much great for any stam or Mag DD role. They are a powerful, versatile race.
Other races are not as well thought out.
Right but the point still stands. If they took every race passive or class passive I would still play the exact one I use.0 -
Somber97866✭✭✭✭✭We get that but for the ppl who think endgame is real important but also love all the different race and would love to play some of the but cannot due to a simple error in my opinion we cannot2