Hybrid Mentality Gone Too Far/Not Far Enough

Hottytotz · February 2023

I will start by saying that the initial move to try to hybrid abilities in the game was a good decision. It got players thinking in a new way for the first time in a long time, like slotting 1-3 abilities in your "lesser" resource pool to spread out sustain. However the point of this post is to point out that in some areas it has gone too far(destroying entire areas of the game) and in some other cases there are some places that need to be updated to the hybrid model. I will make my case...

WHERE THEY HAVE IT RIGHT:
Class Skill Lines
Armor Sets
Buffs - example buffs give both major sorc/brut

I think that all class abilities should have become and stay hybrid. Reasoning is that class skills whether magica/stamina morph usually give off the class aesthetic and fantasy really well. Many core abilities to each class are required here too and for some classes there is no stam alternative. Armor sets were tough at first to accept but most of the procs give nothing to the flavor of the spec you are playing. There will always be 3-4 sets that do 2% more dps than the next 20 and be 'meta'. I agree keeping these simple and keeping stats simple is best. There is enough depth to this game to support this. Buffs I think are self explanatory. Many buffs effect more than just you, and if your buffs only effect magicka classes for example then you get the old ONLY MAG/ONLY STAM groups going again..

WHERE THEY HAVE IT WRONG!!:
Weapon Skill Lines............. OMG.. The worst offender.
Guild Skill Lines (I have went back and forth on this one though)

Weapon skills going hybrid was the worst decision made for this game in the last 4-5 years to be honest. When it comes to the feel/aesthetic/recognition of characters(specifically stam vs mag) weapons are pretty much everything. When you see a character pumping flames and poison you know its a DK, when you see excessive amounts of gold you know its a templar, when you see two annoying pets you know its a sorc. As stated above thats why hybrid skills do not hurt CLASS skill lines, this is the complete opposite for weapon lines. Weapons add the second layer of depth to the identity/feel of a character. Having magicka classes running around with dual wield and 2H weapons SHOULD NOT work. I know ZOS wants to make it so that no one can make a mistake when making thier build, but even in old Elder Scrolls games if you stacked Magicka/int/mind and then went around 2H power attacking, you would have a TERRIBLE time!! Ill try to wrap it up.. I think that they need to revert the hybridization of WEAPON skill lines ASAP. 2H/Bow purely stamina/weap dmg scaling. Resto/Destro staff purely magicka/spell dmg scaling. Dual Wield/1H and Shield could remain hybrid OR go stamina.

WHERE IS IT MISSING:
Class Passives - Big one here is the minor buffs the 4 core classes give.

Self explanator here. Most passives have been updated in some way to give hybrid stats. Class skills and passives as I mentioned above should be hybrid. The minor buffs given by core classes are the last offender I think.

Sorry for the long post but I had to get this off my chest. Game seems to be going downhill and there are many reasons for that. I just wanted to point out the issues with the mass hybridization.
I think if you keep classes hybrid and weapons non-hybrid the game will see some specialization again while still enjoying many of the benefits of hybrid playstyles. You just wont see everyone and their mother running around dual wield/2H. Having layers gives identity back to characters. Thanks for reading.

OBJnoob · February 2023

I'm guessing this is mostly from a PvE standpoint? From a PvP standpoint I think most mag specs are just holding melee weapons, not actually using the weapon abilities. This can be rectified by simply making Destro staff passives a little better I think-- it doesn't have much to do with hybridization-- just the fact that people would rather have more damage instead of less.

At any rate, I feel like you're letting your immersion be ruined when you really don't have to. Don't think of it as hybrid gear and hybrid skills, think of it as hybrid characters. Your character has stamina and magicka. It is wise to find uses for both-- with or without hybridization. And just because all abilities can be potent now doesn't mean there aren't still limitations on what can be sustained.

There's no Lore reason why a DK can't Molten Whip with a sword OR a staff. While staff may be a "magical" weapon it is clearly not necessary for a DK to have magic. DK magic comes from being a DK-- as demonstrated by having separate skill lines.

Hottytotz · February 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

I'm guessing this is mostly from a PvE standpoint? From a PvP standpoint I think most mag specs are just holding melee weapons, not actually using the weapon abilities. This can be rectified by simply making Destro staff passives a little better I think-- it doesn't have much to do with hybridization-- just the fact that people would rather have more damage instead of less.

At any rate, I feel like you're letting your immersion be ruined when you really don't have to. Don't think of it as hybrid gear and hybrid skills, think of it as hybrid characters. Your character has stamina and magicka. It is wise to find uses for both-- with or without hybridization. And just because all abilities can be potent now doesn't mean there aren't still limitations on what can be sustained.

There's no Lore reason why a DK can't Molten Whip with a sword OR a staff. While staff may be a "magical" weapon it is clearly not necessary for a DK to have magic. DK magic comes from being a DK-- as demonstrated by having separate skill lines.

You clearly did not read the post or comprehend it sadly...

You talk about "no reason why a DK cant cast whip with a staff or a sword..." AS I CLEARLY STATED: Class abilities are fine! Yes you SHOULD be casting all class abilities with every weapon type in the game. THE POINT is that you shouldn't be cast ANY WEAPON skill with ANY BUILD. Nothing to do with class. You SHOULD NOT have a full magicka caster dps running around using wrecking blow and stampede. That is ruining immersion.................

Please read entire post before responding this far off the mark.

WrathOfInnos · February 2023

I generally like the direction they are going with hybridization. It should increase build diversity and allow players more freedom in choosing weapons. The 2 issues currently are:
- The system in unfinished. We're finally getting hybrid jewelry enchants, but potions, mundus stones, and unique class minor buffs still cause problems
- Weapons are poorly balanced. Mages feel like they can't use staves because all 3 types of destruction staff are far weaker than dw, 2h and bow. They need to all be approximately equal for players to have a free choice.

Conceptually I don't have any problem with hybrid characters, or a caster with a battleaxe. This kind of build has been in elder scrolls lore for decades, and it was unfortunate that ESO did not allow it until recently. Check out the Oblivion battlemage class https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Battlemage

Agenericname · February 2023

Hottytotz wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

I'm guessing this is mostly from a PvE standpoint? From a PvP standpoint I think most mag specs are just holding melee weapons, not actually using the weapon abilities. This can be rectified by simply making Destro staff passives a little better I think-- it doesn't have much to do with hybridization-- just the fact that people would rather have more damage instead of less.

At any rate, I feel like you're letting your immersion be ruined when you really don't have to. Don't think of it as hybrid gear and hybrid skills, think of it as hybrid characters. Your character has stamina and magicka. It is wise to find uses for both-- with or without hybridization. And just because all abilities can be potent now doesn't mean there aren't still limitations on what can be sustained.

There's no Lore reason why a DK can't Molten Whip with a sword OR a staff. While staff may be a "magical" weapon it is clearly not necessary for a DK to have magic. DK magic comes from being a DK-- as demonstrated by having separate skill lines.

You clearly did not read the post or comprehend it sadly...

You talk about "no reason why a DK cant cast whip with a staff or a sword..." AS I CLEARLY STATED: Class abilities are fine! Yes you SHOULD be casting all class abilities with every weapon type in the game. THE POINT is that you shouldn't be cast ANY WEAPON skill with ANY BUILD. Nothing to do with class. You SHOULD NOT have a full magicka caster dps running around using wrecking blow and stampede. That is ruining immersion.................

Please read entire post before responding this far off the mark.

How is that different from what we had prior to hybridization?

Prior to this nightblades, even with a staff equipped, use melee abilities like impale, concealed weapon, and the bow proc. Templars use a spear and Dragon Knights use a whip.

We have had mages running around with melee weapons for a while. If it isnt immersive now, it shouldnt have been prior to the changes either. The difference with a weapon line like two hander is that the player either needs to build for it or they arent going to be able to sustain it.

Hottytotz · February 2023

Agenericname wrote: »

Hottytotz wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

I'm guessing this is mostly from a PvE standpoint? From a PvP standpoint I think most mag specs are just holding melee weapons, not actually using the weapon abilities. This can be rectified by simply making Destro staff passives a little better I think-- it doesn't have much to do with hybridization-- just the fact that people would rather have more damage instead of less.

At any rate, I feel like you're letting your immersion be ruined when you really don't have to. Don't think of it as hybrid gear and hybrid skills, think of it as hybrid characters. Your character has stamina and magicka. It is wise to find uses for both-- with or without hybridization. And just because all abilities can be potent now doesn't mean there aren't still limitations on what can be sustained.

There's no Lore reason why a DK can't Molten Whip with a sword OR a staff. While staff may be a "magical" weapon it is clearly not necessary for a DK to have magic. DK magic comes from being a DK-- as demonstrated by having separate skill lines.

You clearly did not read the post or comprehend it sadly...

You talk about "no reason why a DK cant cast whip with a staff or a sword..." AS I CLEARLY STATED: Class abilities are fine! Yes you SHOULD be casting all class abilities with every weapon type in the game. THE POINT is that you shouldn't be cast ANY WEAPON skill with ANY BUILD. Nothing to do with class. You SHOULD NOT have a full magicka caster dps running around using wrecking blow and stampede. That is ruining immersion.................

Please read entire post before responding this far off the mark.

How is that different from what we had prior to hybridization?

Prior to this nightblades, even with a staff equipped, use melee abilities like impale, concealed weapon, and the bow proc. Templars use a spear and Dragon Knights use a whip.

We have had mages running around with melee weapons for a while. If it isnt immersive now, it shouldnt have been prior to the changes either. The difference with a weapon line like two hander is that the player either needs to build for it or they arent going to be able to sustain it.

We didnt have hybrid ANYTHING prior to hybridization........................... They then Hybridized EVERTHING. The entire point of the post is that they went to far by hybridizing aka homogenizing EVERYTHING. Read original post with some critical thought please.

Hottytotz · February 2023

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I generally like the direction they are going with hybridization. It should increase build diversity and allow players more freedom in choosing weapons. The 2 issues currently are:
- The system in unfinished. We're finally getting hybrid jewelry enchants, but potions, mundus stones, and unique class minor buffs still cause problems
- Weapons are poorly balanced. Mages feel like they can't use staves because all 3 types of destruction staff are far weaker than dw, 2h and bow. They need to all be approximately equal for players to have a free choice.

Conceptually I don't have any problem with hybrid characters, or a caster with a battleaxe. This kind of build has been in elder scrolls lore for decades, and it was unfortunate that ESO did not allow it until recently. Check out the Oblivion battlemage class https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Battlemage

Thank you for the reply, I see you put some thought into this. I agree with you actually, I just dont have confidence in ZOS perfectly balancing weapons. In order to do that you would once again have to homogenize weapons. Every weapons would need 2 dots, an aoe, a spammable, and an execute for example. In order to have balance I think it should be on the class level and let weapons be the identity flavor. Right now every character in the game is just grey soup... No spice no flavor.

I_killed_Vivec · February 2023

I don't believe that class skills are properly hybridized. The majority of class skills are magica based. Now, while they might do damage scaled off the highest resource, they will use up magica faster than stamina. For this reason stam based characters have always had to rely more on weapon skills - as these are open to all classes there is an inevitable loss of class identity.

It's also why vigor has always been so popular - mag characters can stack everything into magica and benefit from damage, shields, and heals all scaling off their magica pool. At least vigor gives a stam heal.

Consider the DK - all base skills except for stonefist and ash cloud (zero cost) cost magica. Not all of the skills have stam morphs, and there are good reasons for choosing some of the magica versions even then because of what they offer. If you want a class heal - magica. If you want a shield, even one as obviously "physical" as wings - magica. A heal and a shield and you're almost out of magica.

Then you get the hybrid whip...

Now this isn't a comment on the viability of stam classes, but it is a question about the goals of hybridization. Are they really so that anyone can play how they like, so that all class skills are accessible, so that a mag sorc can be a battle mage, and so can a stam dk, all without losing class identity?

Because without equal access to class skills it doesn't look like it.

OBJnoob · February 2023

Hottytotz wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

I'm guessing this is mostly from a PvE standpoint? From a PvP standpoint I think most mag specs are just holding melee weapons, not actually using the weapon abilities. This can be rectified by simply making Destro staff passives a little better I think-- it doesn't have much to do with hybridization-- just the fact that people would rather have more damage instead of less.

At any rate, I feel like you're letting your immersion be ruined when you really don't have to. Don't think of it as hybrid gear and hybrid skills, think of it as hybrid characters. Your character has stamina and magicka. It is wise to find uses for both-- with or without hybridization. And just because all abilities can be potent now doesn't mean there aren't still limitations on what can be sustained.

There's no Lore reason why a DK can't Molten Whip with a sword OR a staff. While staff may be a "magical" weapon it is clearly not necessary for a DK to have magic. DK magic comes from being a DK-- as demonstrated by having separate skill lines.

You clearly did not read the post or comprehend it sadly...

You talk about "no reason why a DK cant cast whip with a staff or a sword..." AS I CLEARLY STATED: Class abilities are fine! Yes you SHOULD be casting all class abilities with every weapon type in the game. THE POINT is that you shouldn't be cast ANY WEAPON skill with ANY BUILD. Nothing to do with class. You SHOULD NOT have a full magicka caster dps running around using wrecking blow and stampede. That is ruining immersion.................

Please read entire post before responding this far off the mark.

To be fair, you didn't mention any weapon skills being used you literally said "having magicka characters running around with DW or 2H SHOULD NOT work," and then you made some obscure reference to older Elder Scrolls games power attacking. Only now have you mentioned wrecking blow and stampede.

Like I said originally-- must be a PvE complaint mostly, right? Stam toons sometimes backbar a staff so they can use Wall of Elements to proc their backbar enchant while they're on their front bar. And mag toons sometimes use Stampede for the same reason.

I think you were pretty rough on me there with very little reason. I read your post-- twice now-- and while I appreciate your point of view (now that you've better communicated it,) my original response to your original post was just fine and dandy.

Agenericname · February 2023

Hottytotz wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

Hottytotz wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

I'm guessing this is mostly from a PvE standpoint? From a PvP standpoint I think most mag specs are just holding melee weapons, not actually using the weapon abilities. This can be rectified by simply making Destro staff passives a little better I think-- it doesn't have much to do with hybridization-- just the fact that people would rather have more damage instead of less.

At any rate, I feel like you're letting your immersion be ruined when you really don't have to. Don't think of it as hybrid gear and hybrid skills, think of it as hybrid characters. Your character has stamina and magicka. It is wise to find uses for both-- with or without hybridization. And just because all abilities can be potent now doesn't mean there aren't still limitations on what can be sustained.

There's no Lore reason why a DK can't Molten Whip with a sword OR a staff. While staff may be a "magical" weapon it is clearly not necessary for a DK to have magic. DK magic comes from being a DK-- as demonstrated by having separate skill lines.

You clearly did not read the post or comprehend it sadly...

You talk about "no reason why a DK cant cast whip with a staff or a sword..." AS I CLEARLY STATED: Class abilities are fine! Yes you SHOULD be casting all class abilities with every weapon type in the game. THE POINT is that you shouldn't be cast ANY WEAPON skill with ANY BUILD. Nothing to do with class. You SHOULD NOT have a full magicka caster dps running around using wrecking blow and stampede. That is ruining immersion.................

Please read entire post before responding this far off the mark.

How is that different from what we had prior to hybridization?

Prior to this nightblades, even with a staff equipped, use melee abilities like impale, concealed weapon, and the bow proc. Templars use a spear and Dragon Knights use a whip.

We have had mages running around with melee weapons for a while. If it isnt immersive now, it shouldnt have been prior to the changes either. The difference with a weapon line like two hander is that the player either needs to build for it or they arent going to be able to sustain it.

We didnt have hybrid ANYTHING prior to hybridization........................... They then Hybridized EVERTHING. The entire point of the post is that they went to far by hybridizing aka homogenizing EVERYTHING. Read original post with some critical thought please.

I was responding to this line

"You SHOULD NOT have a full magicka caster dps running around using wrecking blow and stampede. That is ruining immersion."

I simply stated that magicka users have been using melee weapons and melee attacks all along. If that's breaking your immersion now, it should have been all along. Your issue seem to be that instead of a knife/daggers, whip, or spear, its a 2H weapon. It doesnt bother my immersion, at all.

Hottytotz · March 2023

Agenericname wrote: »

Hottytotz wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

Hottytotz wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

I'm guessing this is mostly from a PvE standpoint? From a PvP standpoint I think most mag specs are just holding melee weapons, not actually using the weapon abilities. This can be rectified by simply making Destro staff passives a little better I think-- it doesn't have much to do with hybridization-- just the fact that people would rather have more damage instead of less.

At any rate, I feel like you're letting your immersion be ruined when you really don't have to. Don't think of it as hybrid gear and hybrid skills, think of it as hybrid characters. Your character has stamina and magicka. It is wise to find uses for both-- with or without hybridization. And just because all abilities can be potent now doesn't mean there aren't still limitations on what can be sustained.

There's no Lore reason why a DK can't Molten Whip with a sword OR a staff. While staff may be a "magical" weapon it is clearly not necessary for a DK to have magic. DK magic comes from being a DK-- as demonstrated by having separate skill lines.

You clearly did not read the post or comprehend it sadly...

You talk about "no reason why a DK cant cast whip with a staff or a sword..." AS I CLEARLY STATED: Class abilities are fine! Yes you SHOULD be casting all class abilities with every weapon type in the game. THE POINT is that you shouldn't be cast ANY WEAPON skill with ANY BUILD. Nothing to do with class. You SHOULD NOT have a full magicka caster dps running around using wrecking blow and stampede. That is ruining immersion.................

Please read entire post before responding this far off the mark.

How is that different from what we had prior to hybridization?

Prior to this nightblades, even with a staff equipped, use melee abilities like impale, concealed weapon, and the bow proc. Templars use a spear and Dragon Knights use a whip.

We have had mages running around with melee weapons for a while. If it isnt immersive now, it shouldnt have been prior to the changes either. The difference with a weapon line like two hander is that the player either needs to build for it or they arent going to be able to sustain it.

We didnt have hybrid ANYTHING prior to hybridization........................... They then Hybridized EVERTHING. The entire point of the post is that they went to far by hybridizing aka homogenizing EVERYTHING. Read original post with some critical thought please.

I was responding to this line

"You SHOULD NOT have a full magicka caster dps running around using wrecking blow and stampede. That is ruining immersion."

I simply stated that magicka users have been using melee weapons and melee attacks all along. If that's breaking your immersion now, it should have been all along. Your issue seem to be that instead of a knife/daggers, whip, or spear, its a 2H weapon. It doesnt bother my immersion, at all.

My account is from beta and I can tell you that for more years of this games history than not there was no max mag characters running around with 2h.................... That is literally just the last year or 2........................ Your kiddng right?

Hottytotz · March 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

Hottytotz wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

I'm guessing this is mostly from a PvE standpoint? From a PvP standpoint I think most mag specs are just holding melee weapons, not actually using the weapon abilities. This can be rectified by simply making Destro staff passives a little better I think-- it doesn't have much to do with hybridization-- just the fact that people would rather have more damage instead of less.

At any rate, I feel like you're letting your immersion be ruined when you really don't have to. Don't think of it as hybrid gear and hybrid skills, think of it as hybrid characters. Your character has stamina and magicka. It is wise to find uses for both-- with or without hybridization. And just because all abilities can be potent now doesn't mean there aren't still limitations on what can be sustained.

There's no Lore reason why a DK can't Molten Whip with a sword OR a staff. While staff may be a "magical" weapon it is clearly not necessary for a DK to have magic. DK magic comes from being a DK-- as demonstrated by having separate skill lines.

You clearly did not read the post or comprehend it sadly...

You talk about "no reason why a DK cant cast whip with a staff or a sword..." AS I CLEARLY STATED: Class abilities are fine! Yes you SHOULD be casting all class abilities with every weapon type in the game. THE POINT is that you shouldn't be cast ANY WEAPON skill with ANY BUILD. Nothing to do with class. You SHOULD NOT have a full magicka caster dps running around using wrecking blow and stampede. That is ruining immersion.................

Please read entire post before responding this far off the mark.

To be fair, you didn't mention any weapon skills being used you literally said "having magicka characters running around with DW or 2H SHOULD NOT work," and then you made some obscure reference to older Elder Scrolls games power attacking. Only now have you mentioned wrecking blow and stampede.

Like I said originally-- must be a PvE complaint mostly, right? Stam toons sometimes backbar a staff so they can use Wall of Elements to proc their backbar enchant while they're on their front bar. And mag toons sometimes use Stampede for the same reason.

I think you were pretty rough on me there with very little reason. I read your post-- twice now-- and while I appreciate your point of view (now that you've better communicated it,) my original response to your original post was just fine and dandy.

I mentioned wreck blow and stampede....

OBJnoob · March 2023

Please read your own post before responding this far off the mark.

axi · March 2023

Hottytotz wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

Hottytotz wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

Hottytotz wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

I'm guessing this is mostly from a PvE standpoint? From a PvP standpoint I think most mag specs are just holding melee weapons, not actually using the weapon abilities. This can be rectified by simply making Destro staff passives a little better I think-- it doesn't have much to do with hybridization-- just the fact that people would rather have more damage instead of less.

At any rate, I feel like you're letting your immersion be ruined when you really don't have to. Don't think of it as hybrid gear and hybrid skills, think of it as hybrid characters. Your character has stamina and magicka. It is wise to find uses for both-- with or without hybridization. And just because all abilities can be potent now doesn't mean there aren't still limitations on what can be sustained.

There's no Lore reason why a DK can't Molten Whip with a sword OR a staff. While staff may be a "magical" weapon it is clearly not necessary for a DK to have magic. DK magic comes from being a DK-- as demonstrated by having separate skill lines.

You clearly did not read the post or comprehend it sadly...

You talk about "no reason why a DK cant cast whip with a staff or a sword..." AS I CLEARLY STATED: Class abilities are fine! Yes you SHOULD be casting all class abilities with every weapon type in the game. THE POINT is that you shouldn't be cast ANY WEAPON skill with ANY BUILD. Nothing to do with class. You SHOULD NOT have a full magicka caster dps running around using wrecking blow and stampede. That is ruining immersion.................

Please read entire post before responding this far off the mark.

How is that different from what we had prior to hybridization?

Prior to this nightblades, even with a staff equipped, use melee abilities like impale, concealed weapon, and the bow proc. Templars use a spear and Dragon Knights use a whip.

We have had mages running around with melee weapons for a while. If it isnt immersive now, it shouldnt have been prior to the changes either. The difference with a weapon line like two hander is that the player either needs to build for it or they arent going to be able to sustain it.

We didnt have hybrid ANYTHING prior to hybridization........................... They then Hybridized EVERTHING. The entire point of the post is that they went to far by hybridizing aka homogenizing EVERYTHING. Read original post with some critical thought please.

I was responding to this line

"You SHOULD NOT have a full magicka caster dps running around using wrecking blow and stampede. That is ruining immersion."

I simply stated that magicka users have been using melee weapons and melee attacks all along. If that's breaking your immersion now, it should have been all along. Your issue seem to be that instead of a knife/daggers, whip, or spear, its a 2H weapon. It doesnt bother my immersion, at all.

My account is from beta and I can tell you that for more years of this games history than not there was no max mag characters running around with 2h.................... That is literally just the last year or 2........................ Your kiddng right?

That is a complete false.