Battlegrounds....

Sparxlost · February 2023

Battlegrounds is, im assuming, a feature meant to cater to newer players to get them interested in low effort pvp.. IMO it definitely is not new player friendly... as a level ten i should have a decent chance of killing a level 50 in battlegrounds......
obviously they will always be better equipped but everyone will be able to function at pretty much the same rate...

How to achieve the level of viability that i believe everyone is entitled to in a battlegrounds playlist is through balancing gear and certain skills....

you could make it so every piece of armor has the same value so if my heavy helmet is purple and theirs is gold then we would still get the same defensive benefit unless they had theirs reinforced trait... this could do so much for newer players getting into battlegrounds as they would actually stand a chance against older players.... a system like this provides more accessibility while still making building your character desirable for high mmr play.... there is probably more to balancing than just this but i think that it is a good start... as a level 10 with no full sets or a still fairly new level 160 with less than desirable stats, the battlegrounds would be that much more fun to enjoy pvp while still learning the game...

SkaraMinoc · February 2023

Sparxlost wrote: »

as a level ten i should have a decent chance of killing a level 50 in battlegrounds

Did you mean level 49? Because a level 50 can have 3600 champion points and 10000 hours of battlegrounds experience.

A new level 49 player will have significant experience over a new level 10. Muscle memory, knowledge of traits, enchants, armor weight, etc. Even just playing 20 or 30 battlegrounds will give you a huge advantage over a level 10.

Sparxlost wrote: »

you could make it so every piece of armor has the same value so if my heavy helmet is purple and theirs is gold then we would still get the same defensive benefit unless they had theirs reinforced trait... this could do so much for newer players getting into battlegrounds as they would actually stand a chance against older players.... a system like this provides more accessibility while still making building your character desirable for high mmr play.... there is probably more to balancing than just this but i think that it is a good start... as a level 10 with no full sets or a still fairly new level 160 with less than desirable stats, the battlegrounds would be that much more fun to enjoy pvp while still learning the game...

Guild Wars 2 has curated sets and it's a good restraint when you want balance. But it severely limits your build options and it goes directly against ZOS' ethos of "play how you want". So I don't see this ever happening.

Sparxlost · February 2023

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Sparxlost wrote: »

as a level ten i should have a decent chance of killing a level 50 in battlegrounds

Did you mean level 49? Because a level 50 can have 3600 champion points and 10000 hours of battlegrounds experience.

A new level 49 player will have significant experience over a new level 10. Muscle memory, knowledge of traits, enchants, armor weight, etc. Even just playing 20 or 30 battlegrounds will give you a huge advantage over a level 10.

Sparxlost wrote: »

you could make it so every piece of armor has the same value so if my heavy helmet is purple and theirs is gold then we would still get the same defensive benefit unless they had theirs reinforced trait... this could do so much for newer players getting into battlegrounds as they would actually stand a chance against older players.... a system like this provides more accessibility while still making building your character desirable for high mmr play.... there is probably more to balancing than just this but i think that it is a good start... as a level 10 with no full sets or a still fairly new level 160 with less than desirable stats, the battlegrounds would be that much more fun to enjoy pvp while still learning the game...

Guild Wars 2 has curated sets and it's a good restraint when you want balance. But it severely limits your build options and it goes directly against ZOS' ethos of "play how you want". So I don't see this ever happening.

as an older player myself i could load into bgs on a new character and not stand a chance without the best gear and even then im pretty much useless... this is extremely discouraging i thought....

and no, it DOESNT limit build options at all because your gear would be of the same stats as other players which gives
you more of an even shot as a newer player to enjoy the game..... it doesnt stop you from playing the game the way you want to. unless for whatever reason you wanted to abuse higher quality gear in lower level pvp content or play with lower quality gear... but if you did want to use lower quality gear then i might suggest medium or light armor as they boast noticeably lower defense capabilities in favor of more damage output..

jaws343 · February 2023

A level 10 will never face a level 50 in BGs. BGs are level locked to below 50 and above 50. Even if they could, they will and should never be on the same level of competitiveness. Just think about the skills and passives a level 10 has available compared to a level 50. It's not even about the gear.

But also, no, BGs are not meant to be beginner PVP. They are meant to be quickly accessible small scale PVP fights.

tincanman · February 2023

Sparxlost wrote: »

... as a level ten i should have a decent chance of killing a level 50 in battlegrounds.......

Assuming you mean level 49 instead of 50 not really.

A level 49 has more skill points, skills are further developed and has more skills and passives unlocked. They will have ultimates, probably fully or almost fully levelled. Level 49 implies the player has probably increased access to passives for armour, as well as improving those skill lines, and other non-class skill lines by grabbing at least a few of the 'easier' overland skyshards. They also probably have better armour/weapons. In short level 49 usually has considerably more power and capability and options than level 10. They've also got 2 bars which is a huge advantage.

All this is mitigated somewhat by the battle-scaling system that can have that 1-skill lvl 10 hit like a truck. So there's still a chance the 10th lvl 1v1 would win against a lvl 49. It should and would only become a 'decent' chance when the 10th level exceeds skill of and has better ping than the level 49.

The best strategy for the weaker 10th lvl is to stay close to their group and try to zerg the probably stronger 49th lvl down.

OBJnoob · February 2023

It's the skill points, passives, unlocked and morphed abilities. It's also the gear-- but sub-50 only sweats are gonna have matching armor of appropriate level. Probably crafted-- which isn't hard-- but still. Realize some people re-enroll toons specifically to play low level BGs. Which is kinda lame, but is what it is.

A solution for this would be good... But I don't think it involves standardizing gear so quality doesn't matter.

I haven't made a new character in ages so... Remind me... Can level 10s even barswap yet? It used to be level 10 unlocks dungeons and level 15 unlocks barswapping. I wouldn't expect much until you can use both bars, certainly.

Necrotech_Master · February 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

It's the skill points, passives, unlocked and morphed abilities. It's also the gear-- but sub-50 only sweats are gonna have matching armor of appropriate level. Probably crafted-- which isn't hard-- but still. Realize some people re-enroll toons specifically to play low level BGs. Which is kinda lame, but is what it is.

A solution for this would be good... But I don't think it involves standardizing gear so quality doesn't matter.

I haven't made a new character in ages so... Remind me... Can level 10s even barswap yet? It used to be level 10 unlocks dungeons and level 15 unlocks barswapping. I wouldn't expect much until you can use both bars, certainly.

lvl 15 is still the minimum level to get access to 2nd bar

lvl 10 is unlocking access to pvp (cyro, IC, BGs)

and in regards to what the OP is talking about, theres always going to be tryhards

even 2 lvl 20 characters could be disproportionately mismatched even if they were naked, because one could be a brand new player and the other could just be an alt of someone who has 1000s of hours of actual game experience, the experienced person will win every time

axi · February 2023

Even lv 10 character can demolish low lv BG if he is properly geared and have knowledge and skill behind him.

As for this fragment

you could make it so every piece of armor has the same value so if my heavy helmet is purple and theirs is gold then we would still get the same defensive benefit unless they had theirs reinforced trait.

Well @Sparxlost this is actually how it currently works. Low lv characters have so called battle leveling which also affects gear to the point that if You are lv 10 character in a lv 10 gear You may end up with higher stats than lv 50 CP 160 gear provides. Low lv characters can actually pull pretty crazy stats thanks to how battle leveling works for them and end up with higher stat sheet than max lv characters. You need to make sure though that Your gear is always as close to Your lv as it's possible because gear stats are dropping the bigger the level difference between You and Your gear.

You cannot expect though that new player without experience and knowledge should be able to reliably compete with players who have both. Dying is the procces of learning and new players should accept that.

SkaraMinoc · February 2023

Sparxlost wrote: »

and no, it DOESNT limit build options at all because your gear would be of the same stats as other players which gives

I was specifically referring to GW2 curated sets for Battlegrounds and yes they do limit build options.

If we're only talking about gear quality then what @axi said is true. The level scaling under 50 makes up the difference.

Sparxlost wrote: »

if you did want to use lower quality gear then i might suggest medium or light armor as they boast noticeably lower defense capabilities in favor of more damage output..

This isn't always true.

Heavy armor increases bash damage more than medium armor.
Light armor actually decreases your bash damage.

But your comment makes sense for new players because they certainly aren't running bash builds or have any clue how to make one. And they don't have the skill level to manage the mechanical complexity of weaving skills with bash.

DrNukenstein · February 2023

Under 50 BG's really are for the OG's on their NG+'s.

The people that pvp regularly in this game, they really like the pvp. You're not going to have nearly as much fun if you're not transmuting a full endgame build every 2-3 levels.

In fact one of the joys of it is getting the skills you want at the lowest possible level so you can enjoy them with the crazy stat scaling. I already ruined my current smurf by taking her to 35. I will definitely be paying to win to get my next one fully set up at level 15. There are even ways to effectively level lock your under 50 pvp toon. It's very dark souls, but you can use $$$ to do it, which is very nice and respectful to my time.

What you should do is fill out your sticker book for Rallying Cry and your your favorite BOE damage set, do a few dungeons for some transmutes, and then get back to it. It's more fun that way.

Sparxlost · February 2023

jaws343 wrote: »

A level 10 will never face a level 50 in BGs. BGs are level locked to below 50 and above 50. Even if they could, they will and should never be on the same level of competitiveness. Just think about the skills and passives a level 10 has available compared to a level 50. It's not even about the gear.

But also, no, BGs are not meant to be beginner PVP. They are meant to be quickly accessible small scale PVP fights.

then what is the point of letting level 10 players into pvp??
so what you guys are saying is that even with this change,higher levels would be better/more prepared that lower levels and that is a good thing....
this change is meant to even the odds, not to make "more prepared" players weaker..

with standardized gear, levels WOULD matter less in battlegrounds but still provide an edge when considering skill morphs and maximum stat values.(and access to unique gear) but those level 10 players would still be able to be a functional part of a team rather than a burden who will probably not be able to enjoy pvp experience just learning on their own.... And this alone is the goal worth striving for... anyone who questions that just hasnt thought it through properly....

Sparxlost · February 2023

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Under 50 BG's really are for the OG's on their NG+'s.

The people that pvp regularly in this game, they really like the pvp. You're not going to have nearly as much fun if you're not transmuting a full endgame build every 2-3 levels.

In fact one of the joys of it is getting the skills you want at the lowest possible level so you can enjoy them with the crazy stat scaling. I already ruined my current smurf by taking her to 35. I will definitely be paying to win to get my next one fully set up at level 15. There are even ways to effectively level lock your under 50 pvp toon. It's very dark souls, but you can use $$$ to do it, which is very nice and respectful to my time.

What you should do is fill out your sticker book for Rallying Cry and your your favorite BOE damage set, do a few dungeons for some transmutes, and then get back to it. It's more fun that way.

i get that the the current system is complexly similar, but that doesnt change the fact that new players dont know that and maybe shouldnt be subjected to the level of unfairness that comes from their enemy knowing that...

this accomplishes so much and could even merge the below level 50 and above level 50 battlegrounds because all gear would be basically the same level/quality and they dont use champ points in bgs anyway....

Caribou77 · February 2023

Hi Sparx, I agree with you that BGs are not welcoming or user friendly for newer players, and that it would be a meaningful improvement to the game, and grow the PVP player base, if there were a clear set of quest tutorials or something to help you understand the very different dynamics of PVP. But that is not a core value of ESO. Even basic information can still be challenging to find or non-existent. My advice: if you want to get good enough to enjoy pvp, join a guild that pvps and plan to spend alot of time researching different builds online and check out sites by Deltia, KristoferESO, and Dragoox. Good luck! It can be a long haul to arrive to a place where you feel competitve in PvP. The high end players are sweaty indeed. [snip]

[edited for minor bashing]

Sparxlost · February 2023

point is
play how you want is a big driver for eso marketing i think... so to have to learn more than basic mechanics on your own to even stand a chance against older players is kind of not a very good indicatior of that image dont you think???

this doesnt touch other pvp like cyrodiil or duels but if it did well to merge the level 1 to 160 bgs i could totally see them making a/the non-champ campaign functioning the same way...

it definitely doesnt seem like too much to ask for as it would accomplish realistically useful goals..

UNSeki · February 2023

You are already battle leveled below lvl 50, so I doubt changing the stats further is a solution. If you tweak it too unevenly, veteran players who happen to be playing in a new low level character would have an advantage over other players.

Sparxlost wrote: »

point is
play how you want is a big driver for eso marketing i think... so to have to learn more than basic mechanics on your own to even stand a chance against older players is kind of not a very good indicatior of that image dont you think???

this doesnt touch other pvp like cyrodiil or duels but if it did well to merge the level 1 to 160 bgs i could totally see them making a/the non-champ campaign functioning the same way...

it definitely doesnt seem like too much to ask for as it would accomplish realistically useful goals..

It's strange that you think learning basic mechanics shouldn't be important.

But I think the more important problem here, that has been pointed out many times by high end players, is the lack of a proper tutorial system in-game. ZOS needs to add some kind of special training room where players can enter to learn more about combat mechanics, how their stats work, how they need to build their characters for PVE and PVP content. It doesn't need to be super detailed, only insightful, to give less experienced players a starting point.

It's counterproductive to have trials and other veteran content feature DPS checks when pugs can't clear that content because they don't know how to reach that DPS.

This game is nearing 10 years old and players still have to turn to Google and Youtube to understand how core elements of the game work. I'm no different, even though I've been playing on and off since 2015.

Sparxlost · February 2023

UNSeki wrote: »

You are already battle leveled below lvl 50, so I doubt changing the stats further is a solution. If you tweak it too unevenly, veteran players who happen to be playing in a new low level character would have an advantage over other players.

Sparxlost wrote: »

point is
play how you want is a big driver for eso marketing i think... so to have to learn more than basic mechanics on your own to even stand a chance against older players is kind of not a very good indicatior of that image dont you think???

this doesnt touch other pvp like cyrodiil or duels but if it did well to merge the level 1 to 160 bgs i could totally see them making a/the non-champ campaign functioning the same way...

it definitely doesnt seem like too much to ask for as it would accomplish realistically useful goals..

It's strange that you think learning basic mechanics shouldn't be important.

But I think the more important problem here, that has been pointed out many times by high end players, is the lack of a proper tutorial system in-game. ZOS needs to add some kind of special training room where players can enter to learn more about combat mechanics, how their stats work, how they need to build their characters for PVE and PVP content. It doesn't need to be super detailed, only insightful, to give less experienced players a starting point.

It's counterproductive to have trials and other veteran content feature DPS checks when pugs can't clear that content because they don't know how to reach that DPS.

This game is nearing 10 years old and players still have to turn to Google and Youtube to understand how core elements of the game work. I'm no different, even though I've been playing on and off since 2015.

None of this is true as...
it wouldnt be tweaked unevenly and would instead be tweaked evenly as the op suggests.. (all gear would have the same respective stats reguardless of gear quality and the only way for you to get more or less stats is through bonus pieces of sets or through trait stones..)
ex.. level one grey gear has the same stats as level 160 gold gear, but if one of those players gear was reinforced and the other players wasnt then they would have slightly higher stats... you see what i mean???
THis would actually promote a healthier learning curve in pvp as you could focus on the basic mechanics without having to farm the best quality gear. meaning your builds could still very likely be less or more powerful than other players builds.. this just closes the gap from new to vet players a reasonable amount while making everyone able to play in the same queue..

for those worrying that building for pvp would be different than pve... There is no need.

all it is doing is boosting yours and everyone elses gear up to the maximum base values while still letting you use your build on top of that... (or to have a chance at being even slightly useful if you just started learning to play the game and try pvp)