Criminal acts, Necromancer and Arcanist?

syberfut · February 2023

I hate criminal act abilities! The other month, I tried to quest in a zone with the Necromancer. There were quite a few NPCs scattered throughout the zone; not to mention the quests that you had to rescue and/or escort. TL;DR, Ember's favor dropped hundreds of points and I racked up a nice sizable bounty. Some of my memorable moments in that one zone:

My favorite was escorting an NPC, upon killing the target mob, the NPC stopped following me and granted me a bounty.. how nice.
There was a bunch of NPCs being beat upon by red text naughties. I go to save them; beat them naughties, and get rewarded with a bounty.
Those random NPCs scattered about? One was hiding in a crevice/hut/whatever; fought outside of said orifice, and got a nice bounty.

DOGGONE IT ZOS! Please please please.. no criminal act abilities with the Arcanist. Playing Necromancer was fun.. but.. questing/clearing a zone with them is.. "bountiful"

:'(

old_scopie1945 · February 2023

I have only one necro which I play as a good guy with a hybrid build. I have made a point of making him legal with no criminal act abilities. The one class that punishes you as a solo quester if you want to make full use of your skills. I have no interest in the meta but only that it fits into my RPG style, so it works for me. I have no interest in trials and have done dungeons to death. My sticker book has all the gear that I use and I can craft all gear, so no need to grind anymore. I can now enjoy my build without the mill stone of racking up endless bounties.

tohopka_eso · February 2023

I have 3 necros, each with there own theme. It just depends on what skills you load on the bar. Even the one I play as a evil Necro, I've only gotten a bounty once and that was because I didn't plan on the quest having a fight close to guards and npc.

BretonMage · February 2023

I don't see any reason why the Arcanist skills should be criminal. As far as I can recall, daedric magic like conjuration isn't considered evil, only necromancy is.

TX12001rwb17_ESO · February 2023

BretonMage wrote: »

I don't see any reason why the Arcanist skills should be criminal. As far as I can recall, daedric magic like conjuration isn't considered evil, only necromancy is.

The difference though between what the Sorcerer is doing to what the Arcanist is doing is the origin of the magic, where as Sorceror's are summoning random Daedra the Arcanist is clearly directly involved with a Daedric Prince, their magic implies they have been to Apocrypha and have consulted with Hermaeus Mora, if anything they would assume your a Daedric Cultist and Daedric Cultists ARE illegal.

Necrotech_Master · February 2023

quest NPCs should not give you a bounty for "criminal act" skills, if they did it was a bug

i have had issues with say the wandering NPC merchants giving me a bounty when ive had a summon still up after fighting and then running across the road and giving me a bounty

right now the only criminal stuff is:

certain necromancy skills
certain vampire skills
being transformed into a WW

we dont officially know yet if any arcanist skills will be marked as criminal

zaria · February 2023

old_scopie1945 wrote: »

I have only one necro which I play as a good guy with a hybrid build. I have made a point of making him legal with no criminal act abilities. The one class that punishes you as a solo quester if you want to make full use of your skills. I have no interest in the meta but only that it fits into my RPG style, so it works for me. I have no interest in trials and have done dungeons to death. My sticker book has all the gear that I use and I can craft all gear, so no need to grind anymore. I can now enjoy my build without the mill stone of racking up endless bounties.

This, on an pc with dressing room its trivial to change. Have one crime free overland build and one who uses illegal spells.
Then other setups for dungeons and world bosses, if magcro an healer setup.

Now another issue is having attacking friendlies on is dangerous doing quests as some areas the friendly npc being killable if attacking friendlies is on. Ran into this in Firsthold in Auridon, dominion soldiers are fighting daedra,
Well went in, and thought the number of enemies was high outside an public dungeon. Well starting with wall of elements hurt the friendlies so they attacked. Turing it off and completed quest and got skillpoint, then porting to and town and get mobbed, then killed by guards.
So better keep it off unless you want to murder people.

zaria · February 2023

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

quest NPCs should not give you a bounty for "criminal act" skills, if they did it was a bug

i have had issues with say the wandering NPC merchants giving me a bounty when ive had a summon still up after fighting and then running across the road and giving me a bounty

right now the only criminal stuff is:
certain necromancy skills

certain vampire skills

being transformed into a WW

we dont officially know yet if any arcanist skills will be marked as criminal

Ran into an bandit npc in Southern Bangkorai, Onsl's breath I believe, an Orc why said he was an bandit and followed me, I found an thief trove and he gave me bounty for looting it, room was empty it was just me, him and Ember who got annoyed.
Yes it was stealing not an skill but npc saying she is an bandit should not report you stealing unless from her group.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Rising_Against_Onsi's_Breath

So pretty sure it can be bugs with this.

Toanis · February 2023

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

The difference though between what the Sorcerer is doing to what the Arcanist is doing is the origin of the magic, where as Sorceror's are summoning random Daedra the Arcanist is clearly directly involved with a Daedric Prince, their magic implies they have been to Apocrypha and have consulted with Hermaeus Mora, if anything they would assume your a Daedric Cultist and Daedric Cultists ARE illegal.

IDK, what does the average person know about such things? If Tentacles=Hermaeus Mora, then Fire=Mehrunes Dagon, Light=Meridia and Shadows=Nocturnal, no? Some might even come to the conclusion that Cold=Coldharbour=Molag Bal

So those who weaken the borders between worlds to bring forth fell creatures from beyond, and then even show off their dark arts by having their beasts stand on crafting tables in the middle of town should be the only class who isn't reported to the guards?

old_scopie1945 · February 2023

zaria wrote: »

old_scopie1945 wrote: »

I have only one necro which I play as a good guy with a hybrid build. I have made a point of making him legal with no criminal act abilities. The one class that punishes you as a solo quester if you want to make full use of your skills. I have no interest in the meta but only that it fits into my RPG style, so it works for me. I have no interest in trials and have done dungeons to death. My sticker book has all the gear that I use and I can craft all gear, so no need to grind anymore. I can now enjoy my build without the mill stone of racking up endless bounties.

This, on an pc with dressing room its trivial to change. Have one crime free overland build and one who uses illegal spells.
Then other setups for dungeons and world bosses, if magcro an healer setup.

Now another issue is having attacking friendlies on is dangerous doing quests as some areas the friendly npc being killable if attacking friendlies is on. Ran into this in Firsthold in Auridon, dominion soldiers are fighting daedra,
Well went in, and thought the number of enemies was high outside an public dungeon. Well starting with wall of elements hurt the friendlies so they attacked. Turing it off and completed quest and got skillpoint, then porting to and town and get mobbed, then killed by guards.
So better keep it off unless you want to murder people.

The clue here is 'my RPG style'. My Khajiit main has four different builds on the armoury for different tasks but still sticking to character. My Nord has both a tank build and a Stam DPS build on the armoury but still sticks to character. My Altmer Necro is my eight character and he will stay in character.

sharquez · February 2023

Remember summoning actual demon monkeys that only exist to cause harm is okay and legal by the letter of the law.

But summoning a Ghost doctor who's only purpose is to heal is a crime.

SpacemanSpiff1 · February 2023

sharquez wrote: »

Remember summoning actual demon monkeys that only exist to cause harm is okay and legal by the letter of the law.

But summoning a Ghost doctor who's only purpose is to heal is a crime.

agreed. the daedra should also be illegal. and the bear.

NotaDaedraWorshipper · February 2023

sharquez wrote: »

Remember summoning actual demon monkeys that only exist to cause harm is okay and legal by the letter of the law.

But summoning a Ghost doctor who's only purpose is to heal is a crime.

Because one of those things messes with people's bodies and souls, the other does not.

BretonMage · February 2023

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

I don't see any reason why the Arcanist skills should be criminal. As far as I can recall, daedric magic like conjuration isn't considered evil, only necromancy is.

The difference though between what the Sorcerer is doing to what the Arcanist is doing is the origin of the magic, where as Sorceror's are summoning random Daedra the Arcanist is clearly directly involved with a Daedric Prince, their magic implies they have been to Apocrypha and have consulted with Hermaeus Mora, if anything they would assume your a Daedric Cultist and Daedric Cultists ARE illegal.

While we're usually called upon to help deal with daedric cults actively threatening lives, I don't think all daedric activity/communing is illegal. I mean, many Dunmer follow Azura, and similarly with Orcs and Malacath. I don't think Hermaeus Mora is considered evil like Mehrunes Dagon or Molag Bal.

sharquez wrote: »

Remember summoning actual demon monkeys that only exist to cause harm is okay and legal by the letter of the law.

No civilian has ever been hurt or threatened by any of our daedric summons. Additionally, they protect the summoner, so they're useful.

sharquez · February 2023

BretonMage wrote: »

sharquez wrote: »

Remember summoning actual demon monkeys that only exist to cause harm is okay and legal by the letter of the law.

No civilian has ever been hurt or threatened by any of our daedric summons. Additionally, they protect the summoner, so they're useful.

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

sharquez wrote: »

Remember summoning actual demon monkeys that only exist to cause harm is okay and legal by the letter of the law.

But summoning a Ghost doctor who's only purpose is to heal is a crime.

Because one of those things messes with people's bodies and souls, the other does not.

My dudes the scamps ONLY purpose is to kill things That is definitely messing with a body/soul in an explicitly negative way. and they will kill whatever you tell them to.

The Ghosts ONLY purpose is to heal and protect. It cannot in anyway deal damage and will triage and help your allies and civilians around you in fights.

NOT ONLY that, but I'm pretty sure every single faction has a story that involves you communing with ghosts in some way shape or form and you get in no trouble whatsoever. You summon a ghost with the help of the Temple in Morrowind.

There are ghosts towns in the Breton lands. Not abandoned, Literally populated by ghosts.

The Altmer have ghosts guarding their sacred ritual sites, summoned by government administration/guilds

But if I summon a Ghost to heal someone I become a kill on site threat.

This is OBJECTIVELY [snip]

[edited for profanity bypass]

NotaDaedraWorshipper · February 2023

sharquez wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

sharquez wrote: »

Remember summoning actual demon monkeys that only exist to cause harm is okay and legal by the letter of the law.

No civilian has ever been hurt or threatened by any of our daedric summons. Additionally, they protect the summoner, so they're useful.

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

sharquez wrote: »

Remember summoning actual demon monkeys that only exist to cause harm is okay and legal by the letter of the law.

But summoning a Ghost doctor who's only purpose is to heal is a crime.

Because one of those things messes with people's bodies and souls, the other does not.

My dudes the scamps ONLY purpose is to kill things That is definitely messing with a body/soul in an explicitly negative way. and they will kill whatever you tell them to.

The Ghosts ONLY purpose is to heal and protect. It cannot in anyway deal damage and will triage and help your allies and civilians around you in fights.

No they are are not. Daedra are not mindless beasts, quite the opposite. A lot of mages summon scamps to do errands for them that has nothing to do with killing. But that's not the point, the point is that daedra are immortal beings from a different plane of existence, not mortals.

Meanwhile, those ghosts are someone's friend, relative, loved one etc. Thet are mortals' souls you're toying with and controlling. In the world of Tamriel that is a big difference.

NOT ONLY that, but I'm pretty sure every single faction has a story that involves you communing with ghosts in some way shape or form and you get in no trouble whatsoever. You summon a ghost with the help of the Temple in Morrowind.

Yes, ghost who you are not controlling around like puppets. Those are lost souls you're talking to, and sometimes try help to move on to their proper afterlife. You're not forcing them to be mindless slaves that heals you and whatnot.

The dunmer have always had an unique view of necromancy. Things related to your own ancestors? Fine. Any other type of necromancy is very bad.

There are ghosts towns in the Breton lands. Not abandoned, Literally populated by ghosts.

The Altmer have ghosts guarding their sacred ritual sites, summoned by government administration/guilds

Haunting, they are haunting those places. Because of the way they died.

But if I summon a Ghost to heal someone I become a kill on site threat.

* Ripping someone's soul from their afterlife, who they might know, and forcing them to obey you.

This is OBJECTIVELY [snip]

It's really not and has a lot of lore backing.
Necromantic magic that forcefully control mortals' souls=Tamriel's people think is very bad and illegal.
[snip]
[edited for minor bashing & to remove quote]

bmnoble · February 2023

I would rather they scrap the criminal acts for skills altogether.

You get caught stealing or killing/feeding on an NPC then you should get a bounty, should not be a thing for simply making use of your class skills in my opinion.

TX12001rwb17_ESO · February 2023

The real reason Necromancy is illegal...probably

You see the Mage's Guild is mostly all Sorcerers, a pretty boring class honestly then the Necromancer shows up with all their cool undead summoning and flaming skulls, naturally the boring Sorcerers in charge are gonna get jealous of how lame they are in comparison to the Necromancer so in a bid to get one up on their cooler brethren they decided to make Necromancy illegal.

Now the real reason is mortals do not like when their grandmother is raised to fight a troll where as they do not care about Daedra simply because Daedra are evil, now the Arcanist is far cooler then the Sorcerer but it's magic does not involve summoning Daedra as far as we know, that is not to say it should not be illegal because the magic is very obviously "Daedric Magic" and implies the user has a strong connection to a Daedric Prince and anyone known to consult with Daedra are probbaly not gonna be looked too fondly upon by the masses, if their is any reason the Arcanist would be illegal it would be because they are obviously a Daedric Cultist.

But then we could also argue why Nightblades magic is not illegal, they are using Blood Magic, one could argue that is even worse then Necromancy, at least the dead are already dead but with what the Nightblades are doing, your stealing the lifeforce of others to power your magic and even several of the abilities make reference in their description to attacking the target's soul directly, instead of trying to manipulate the soul like a Necromancer your outright trying to destroy it.

Sarannah · February 2023

Been playing my necromancer through multiple zones the past weeks, and even though he only has 1 criminal act ability slotted, it is annoying that 90% of the time I can't use that ability, and when I do it almost always results in a bounty.

To me criminal act skills aren't a fun gimmick. This is one of those things that seems fun on paper, but in practice it doesn't work well. Maybe remove the "criminal act" from abilities, and do not make more on any class. Lorewise, this could work as we could be seen as the saviour of tamriel, and are therefor allowed to use necromancy to aid us.

Criminal act skills are now technically unusable. So please remove all the "criminal act" from skills, and stop creating more.

Aztrias · February 2023

I hope none of the Arcanists abilites will be criminal acts... that would be a bummer

Rasande_Robin · February 2023

I love the fact that necro abilities are criminal acts, it adds that extra little bit of flavor to the class.

I want more uniqueness with classes now everyone is a goo mixed together of a meta build making no class unique.
It is good when a class contributes with something unique to the group a buff only they have, a de-buff only the have...

Now-days no one is special and you'd rather go with full DK-dd's and buff-bots to the DK's... then something is wrong.

Even if a class is "top-parse" it is okay as long as the other classes that are "DD's" can contribute with a unique buff or de-buff. Making you still want to have a mixture of classes.

On a side note, make monster sets get extra buffs depending on what class is using what monster set... now it is only the "best" being used. Missing out on all the other cool monster sets that will never see daylight.

Toanis · February 2023

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

No they are are not. Daedra are not mindless beasts, quite the opposite. A lot of mages summon scamps to do errands for them that has nothing to do with killing. But that's not the point, the point is that daedra are immortal beings from a different plane of existence, not mortals.

Meanwhile, those ghosts are someone's friend, relative, loved one etc. Thet are mortals' souls you're toying with and controlling. In the world of Tamriel that is a big difference.

Generally, TES undead are mindless constructs animated by the necromancer's spell, there is no mind or soul, just bones (yes, the ghost seems different). Those bones we (re)use time and and again as a cruise missile were once loved by someone, but that's a culturally based evil. What separates grave desecration from archeology? A century or two? BTW: Did you know that the fallen soldiers of Waterloo were turned into fertilizer (aside from those that were sold to universities for anatomy lessons)?

Daedra on the other hand are spirits with their own agenda, some may just care about animalistic needs, others may actually serve another, darker, master. It's not just untasteful and disturbing, but actually dangerous to open that door.

In D&D both are much worse: bringing negative energy into the world to animate the dead is consuming some of the world's life force, and the very presence of a demon corrupts the world until it eventually becomes another layer of the abyss.

logan68 · February 2023

I just wish they would get rid of criminal act completely since we cant defend ourselves from the guards its just not a fun mechanic

sharquez · February 2023

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

[cut for conciseness]

You make some fair points from a lore/narrative perspective.

I've already outlined several cases where ghosts are acceptable while omitting the absolute most blatant one that establishes the precedent that ghosts summoned for benevolent means should not be fineable offenses: Shalidor.

Shalidor is a ghost summoned by you and the mages guild. That is against the law and should result in bounty and legal ramifications for you and the guild. In fact the entire mages guild questline is a text book case why trafficking with Daedra should be treated just as seriously as necromancy, Not to mention oh I don't know the entire plane meld?

Now the obvious rebuttal of "Necro wasn't in the game back when the mages guild questline was written" and you're right. But now that forces us back to talking about if from a mechanical standpoint because narratively necromancers always have existed. And while neither standpoint is mutually exclusive, we've got to nail down which is more important: narrative (where there are precedents for acceptable necromancy) or player experience.

From a mechanical point standpoint The ghost and scamp can ONLY do the things I mentioned. Since that is the case there need to be considerations made for what they are capable of doing and the consequences of that from a gameplay perspective.

Therefore DR. Ghost PHD should be allowed to continue his medical practice without harassments from city guard,
and rampaging demon monkeys need to be removed from our orderly and justly enforced cities. Or Vastarie and/or the Mages Guild need to pay for their crimes of Necromancy and/or otherwise endangering reality by trafficking with one of the most powerful and unpredictable Daedra in the Aurbis.

TLDR; No matter which way you slice it the healing ghost and only the ghost should be acceptable and unpunished as set forth by precedents in the game for ghost trafficking. All other criminally tagged Necromancer skills are justifiably crimes.

rpa · February 2023

Adding crime to necro abilities and ww transform and making being high stage vamp a pain was a remove fun move. If devs intended improve immersion, it failed me. I do not find getting annoyed with bounties from doing quests which do not require tresspassing, stealing, pickpocketing or murdering immersive. If the intent was to discourage playing ww, vamp and necro, it was a great success.
If arcanist too will get criminal act abilities, I just might pass it. Small annoyances add up.

Jusey1 · February 2023

Criminal Act tag to abilities just need to have an option to disable them in all honesty. Sure, I rarely get a bounty from them as I am generally careful but it still sucks that I have to be careful, especially when I wanna speedrun quests for rewards and experience to help level up a character quicker.

Clyde_BlueSnake · February 2023

Simple, be wise & pay attention where you do criminal act skills & you won't get caught.
-a werewolf

DMuehlhausen · February 2023

My biggest issue with the criminal acts is you get a quest to go kill X of something or a certain thing whatever. Then that thing or things are within eye shot of the quest giver or giver something and then you get a bounty for simply doing what they told you to do. It's *** and should be changed.

joergino · February 2023

Quest givers never give you a bounty while the quest is active or you can still accept the quest from them. For example you can walk around and steal without sneaking in the quest giver area of the Brass Fortress. Even the NPCs that only exxist for the "talk to..." optional objective of some daily quests don't give you a bounty.

Some quest givers like Dringoth at the Bone Orchard in Grahtwood become normal NPCs when you complete their regional quest. So despite me saving his skeletal life, he now gives me a bounty whenever the thieves trove in front of the entrance is there and is looted by me. I assume this is normal behaviour for an NPC without the quest giver special role.

rpa · February 2023

Most annoying are the places where one is supposed to fight enemies with allies who give you bounty for "criminal acts". Greenwater Cove in Auridon is one example. If it has not been fixed during last few years. For some reason I haven't bothered stopping there while passing by since I did it with my necro...

syberfut · February 2023

Thank you for all the replies! I enjoy reading about the shared silliness of Tamriel. I do appreciate your nods at lore and emersion, however here are silly and frustrating takes on that.

I often find myself suffering from, "fat finger syndrome." I go to do my crafting writs, and instead of hitting 'E', I press 3. And boof goes a boogeyboo and the guard comes to give me a piece of his mind.. fist.. sword.. metal toe. Now imagine if this was a real life situation. You go to a crafting station, and simulating a fat finger, you get a bout of dementia - you forget what you're doing and you summon a ghoully. Why? Dunno, dementia. That could qualify as emersion? And that guard with a metal toe would accost you the same... so, yeah.. emersion.

Now another instance. I sometimes find myself trying to type in chat, but forget to activate chat. Boof goes the oogabooga and oh oops, I also ult-summoned that big guy that pounds the ground twice and blames me for it. This time the populace, enjoying the show, goes to tattle on me. Guard with a glass eye comes around the corner and makes me put my hands in the air. As it turns out, the Lore of Necromancers' abilities aren't actually illegal, it is the corrupt population of Tamriel! The townspeople love it when Necromancers come to town. They stand around watching, waiting for those that are clumsy or have early onset dementia. Every time they tattle on you, they improve their town. They're all like, "Oooh! Free gold! Let's watch them trip and summon bones. Oh! There's another fountain! Oh look they're inadvertently tracing a summon sigil when they swat at torchbugs! Oh look they summoned a booger. Time to report them!" So yeah, Necromancer Lore, abilities were made illegal because it's free money.