Finally caught up… big fan of the Year of the Bretons side stuff. Main quest? Not so much.

Ingel_Riday · December 2022

I finally got caught up with the content in ESO and finished High Isle and most of Firesong. Thought I’d chime in and throw out some praise alongside a dash of frowning. :-P

Specifically, kudos to the teams that did the side content for the expansions. I found it immensely impressive. Going to do a little bullet list:

The world bosses had some neat mechanics that made them interesting to fight. Sure, you can burn them fast with enough people, but otherwise you have some decent mechanics to engage with. Well-choreographed madness.
So many touches of love and artistic flourishes. A dead body hanging from the figurehead of a washed-up piece of ship, with mud-crabs hopping and snipping upwards in the hope of getting a piece. Mud-crabs dancing in joy in front of giant coral crabs. A wandering Argonian licking frogs to get high. Odd dialogue and other random insane encounters. I could ramble for hours. Just pure fun. I loved every bit of it. You made me grin ear to ear in misfit joy. Masterful.
The side-quests UNDERSTAND this franchise. The joyful madness. The silly stereotypes about each race that, as always in this franchise, each have a basis in reality. Actual villains who don’t fail utterly at everything. Just a few examples:
- I loved the castle with the crazy Bretons who tried to cheat death with a magical flaying knife. It checks out. Bretons have a reputation for being magic-crazed lunatics, and that stereotype… has a basis in reality. This worked. Of course some of them would think this was a good idea.
- The Khajiit necromancer in Garrick’s Rest ACTUALLY SUCCEEDED AT A LOT OF HER GOALS. It wasn’t until the end that she messed up. You let a rival be portrayed as competent, clever, and an actual threat until a final “ace up the sleeve” moment from the Vestige. Great.
- So many crazy magic Bretons. Even the druids are crazy, arguing with squirrels or flirting with sheep (gadzooks). It would fit the stereotype that even primitive, proto-Bretons would be magic-crazed and off-kilter. Checked out. Again, you get it. You understand it.
- This is the place to mention it: the side-quests are designed very well. They're well-paced, mostly avoid padding themselves out with pointless running back and forth, involve a lot of diverse locations, and I have no criticism to offer. Well done!

Loved all of it… and then I got to the main quests, which I saved for last. Oi. What a mistake. I can’t help but think that there must be different teams writing the side content and the main content, because it was night and day.

The Ascendant Order never have a single moment of competency. They’re introduced as buffoons getting eaten by Halodids, fumble their assassination plot, and then lose EVERY SINGLE TIME you encounter them. They’re worthless.
- They’re not even that evil. Oh sure, Lady Arabelle says they are evil and she writes Investigator Vale, so you’re supposed to take her word for it when she calls them terrorists (totally a term I’d expect in a fantasy setting, y’all). But… they don’t do anything particularly naughty. Queen Ayrenn ordered people flayed alive and the genocide of an entire generation of unhatched Argonians. The Ebonheart Pact dropped Argonian slave-trading… in lieu of enslaving anyone they can catch during brutal coastal raids. Emeric had his people slaughter every man, woman, and child of Bleakrock. Oh, and he gave the orcs his blessing to scourge Rivenspire, slaughtering and violating countless thousands of civilians in a bloodbath *** of violence. But hey, those peasants had it coming because Ranser rose up against Emeric, right? Sure sure.
- The Ascendant Order… pillaged some caravans for needed supplies and plotted to eliminate the leaders behind countless atrocities and war crimes? What? How dreadful, guffaw. It wasn’t until Galen that you course-corrected and had their leader reveal himself to be a world-ending cliché, which… eh? Made me miss the actual political intrigue and low stakes in Wrothgar. This was a dud faction.
Too many main quest missions revolve around running to opposite corners of the map to pad time.
The writing… Gods, the writing. Characters in the main quest just boil down to as few dimensions and key phrases as possible, and then stay there.
- “Hey there, GOOD LOOKING!” Jakarn is an excessively lusty caricature of himself, chasing after anything that moves. I loved him in the base game… but it’s like he’s a vestige of his former self (har har).
- Lady Arabelle has one shtick (barely suppressed perversity), one running joke (does she REALLY write those novels?), and one throatily delivered bedroom-voice tone for all dialogue.
- Even poor Razum’dar gets hit with the lust belt, and now he apparently “rambles to Queen Ayreen for hours about people’s butts at court,” tries to couple with anything that moves, and ends his Galen quest talking about finding a hot Druid Boy. He’s cat-Jakarn all the sudden. What happened?
- “Root and thorn!” ‘Root and thorn!” “Root and thorn!” For the love of God, this phrase was this game’s “Cracked Acorns!”
Not a single main quest offered even a bare modicum of challenge.
Also, the writing. Look, you want to use neo-pronouns? Fine. Not my thing, but whatever. However, you can use them without being incomprehensible.
- What we got: “Frii will go with the druids. Frii knows that they need them. They will help them.” So… Frii knows that the druids need it, or Frii knows that it needs the druids? Frii will help the druids, or the druids will help Frii? What are you trying to say, you bizarre amalgamation of forest spirits now existing in a leafy humanoid form? This is awful writing. It sacrifices clarity for… I don’t even know what it sacrifices it for. Bleh
- How about: “Frii will go with the druids. Too many dangers. Frii needs their help. Will help druids in return.” There we go. Isn’t it clear who is who? Look at that. Admittedly, I didn’t use any neo-pronouns, but again… they’re not my thing and priority A in writing is making sure the reader can actually UNDERSTAND YOU. Bleh

So yeah, not a fan of the main quest. But jeezy petes, you fired on all cylinders for the side content. I’m not being facetious; I loved it. Loved it all, even the weird Druid lust quest on Northeastern Galen (which would have never made it past your committees if genders were reversed and the Sea Elf torturer was a dude molesting his female Thieves’ Guild victim while she screamed in misery, but I digress). You did more to capture the maniacal spirit of both the Bretons and The Elder Scrolls franchise than the main quest, by leaps and bounds. I didn’t fast forward through a single line of side content dialogue, either. It was pure gold. Even got me reading old lore books from Skyrim and wistfully remembering the old games. Bravo. I wouldn’t change a thing about it. Grade AAA.

There. Praise with a hint of frown. Some positive energy, mostly, into the ether. I wanted to say something. Truth be told, this was going to be nothing but praise until I got to the main quest and stared dumbfounded, thinking "Oh God... what happened here?"

Ingel_Riday · December 2022

Also, before I forget: the DLC dungeons were great this year, too. I kind of wish Graven Deep had foreshadowed the mechanics of the lich a bit better, but so it goes.

They're not overly long like some of the older DLC dungeons, the mechanics are interesting, and they're well-paced. I especially enjoyed the Earthen Root Enclave, which did a great job organically introducing boss mechanics in advance of said bosses. I have no critiques here. I just wish that PUG groups were less fickle. A lot of tanks and healers ditch when they see it's a DLC dungeon now, and I can't blame them. After Update 35, the mid-tier kiddos have lost 30%+ of their DPS and probably aren't much fun to fight alongside anymore. Can't just burn through mechanics like the good old days, guffaw. After a 30 minute queue, my DPS self is fine trying to tough it out. A tank or healer with instant-queue? Why Bother? Just ditch, read a book for 15 minutes, and re-queue. Roll that dice for a base-game dungeon that takes 15 to 20 minutes. :-P A shame, but so it goes.

SirLeeMinion · December 2022

Thanks for the review, OP. I looked briefly at what was done to the main quest and characters and just wrote the whole year off. They butchered some characters I liked and added nothing in the process. On your advice, I'll go back and look at the side quests. Maybe that will reverse the impression that the art department is carrying the rest of the team.

As to a side issue you mentioned: while I see some use for pronouns that refer to a person of unknown gender, I agree that the trend towards "they / them" causes far more problems than it solves. ESO, though, seems to be all-in and over uses these pronouns even when there is no need.

spartaxoxo · December 2022

If the point is to convey that Frii doesn't have a gender, then the neopronouns aren't something that can just be skipped. The pronouns should be used and it should be clear. Otherwise the rewrite doesn't convey all of the information that the original paragraph does. So the rewrite you made doesn't work either. Also, Frii isn't supposed to be easily understood.

Syldras · December 2022

"They" used for a person of unknown, unspecified or undeterminable gender isn't even a neo-pronoun. It was already used in 14th century English literature.

Molydeus · December 2022

spartaxoxo wrote: »

If the point is to convey that Frii doesn't have a gender, then the neopronouns aren't something that can just be skipped. The pronouns should be used and it should be clear. Otherwise the rewrite doesn't convey all of the information that the original paragraph does. So the rewrite you made doesn't work either. Also, Frii isn't supposed to be easily understood.

It's not about Frii being easy to understand, it's about making the narrative needlessly confusing. You can make a complex and compelling character without resorting to making them difficult to write.

Supreme_Atromancer · December 2022

Great write-up, though I disagree with some of it.

Regarding the side-quests, it may be a matter of taste- but I think the wacky-zany stuff is over-done. I think you're right that there are examples of it throughout the series, but I feel like the balance is wrong. Joyful madness and silly stereotypes are one thing, but I don't really feel like they overwrote the tone in any of the mainline games. I didn't come away from Skyrim with a lasting feeling of how wacky and drunk they were, for instance.

Regarding the "lustful druids" quest you mentioned above: given your opinions on the over-sexualisation of characters, I'm surprised you celebrate this one! I was so exhausted from all the annoyingly smutty characters, that by the time we got to it, we just bowed out. Vary rarely do I dislike the tone so much that I can't drag myself through it. It may be a matter of taste, but at the same time, its controversial stuff- like other base biology things, I think a wry, unexpected poop joke, for instance, at the right time before quickly moving on, anyone could laugh at, but when you're defining three of your important characters by coarse, repeated, in-your-face poop jokes, its likely to annoy some part of the audience you're writing for.

Regarding the magical Bretons, I think that you make a good point to call those out. I never noticed it, so I'd like to play through those quests again and think about it. But in my defence, and to highlight why I feel it doesn't carry the tone: although you have some wacky Breton mage who's doing "the thing" this time, we can look at previous writing and find a dozen or so examples where the plot and the "magic" device are similar, but the zany mage is a Nord. Or an Imperial. Or, as you also point out, a Khajiiti necromancer. Its hard to interpret that the world is telling us "zany Breton mages", when zany mages are everywhere anyway- it feels like the fact that they are Breton is more to do with the Breton location- any tone those examples are meant to carry are lost in the noise of zany mages everywhere. To be fair, I guess this means that this isn't a problem with High Isle side-quests - they're doing it right. But for it to have definition, it should be distinct against the rest of the game's story-telling, and it isn't.

Regarding the main quest writing, the more I've thought about it, the more I feel that many of the problems you and others (me, included!) have listed are because the writing hasn't been given enough time and space. There are so many themes, lores, so much character that each plot is meant to support, there's just no way to fit even a quarter of it in. As a result, so much work and significance must be borne by one or two lines of dialogue that hangs on people receiving it properly. Stuff the community thinks is important must sometimes be relegated to a brief exchange you may not even notice the significance of. In the mainline games, themes are expounded upon over and over again. There are multiple ways to engage and explore some theme. So people are not as likely to miss it, and have multiple ways to come to the message the writers are trying to convey. ESO's release cadence made this impossible.

I think a major reason why people were unsatisfied also was because zos decided "druids on an island" were the lens through which "Bretons of High Rock" were going to be explored, and this left little room for a lot of the things that the community (and arguably the lore) held as important to the legacy of the Bretons. Its not wrong for them to take things in any direction they want. But neither was it surprising that a community who had been expressing for years what themes they hoped would be explored were going to be disappointed and unsatisfied when that chosen direction would eclipse almost everything else.

Does the Druid story, all told, feel compelling enough that it will be satisfying? For me, I think that unfortunately, it feels contrived and over-worked. It feels like ideas or threads are begun, then abandoned when they become infeasible due to revelations in lore or inconsistencies with development or marketing directions, or adherence to formula, then shored-up with unsatisfying explanations and premises of "unreliable narration". Am I pulled into the idea that what I'm reading is confusing because the narrators have bias? Is this wrong and contradictory because its lost in history? Or does it really feel like it was contrived because the original idea- already committed to- became untenable somewhere during development? I guess its unavoidable to an extent. That fantasy must serve the reality of production is a fact of life, but we hope that its done well enough that we aren't reminded of the fact. I just hope the initial pitches tend towards being robust enough that they support the lore and tone, rather than force them.

Finally, regarding the pronouns thing- I don't have a problem with it. I think nuance in language only serves to increase our understanding of the complexity of nature, and anything that helps us communicate that only increases our understanding of the world. That's not a bad thing. I guess that at any point where the ambiguity of the term "they" might have been a problem, context quickly overcame any confusion.

I will say that I acknowledge I'm making particular criticisms of people's work in my post. While I'm definitely passionate about fantasy writing, none of it is meant to be disrespectful or hurtful and I hope it wont be taken that way. I also think writing can be hard, writing for a market *very* hard, and writing in this particular medium, and to an incredibly tight deadline... I couldn't do it. These are just thoughts, reflections and impressions I had while playing, and later reflecting.

spartaxoxo · December 2022

Molydeus wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

If the point is to convey that Frii doesn't have a gender, then the neopronouns aren't something that can just be skipped. The pronouns should be used and it should be clear. Otherwise the rewrite doesn't convey all of the information that the original paragraph does. So the rewrite you made doesn't work either. Also, Frii isn't supposed to be easily understood.

It's not about Frii being easy to understand, it's about making the narrative needlessly confusing. You can make a complex and compelling character without resorting to making them difficult to write.

Frii's speech is literally supposed to be confusing, it's an explicit plot point. You can make a complex and compelling character that is immediately able to be understood, but Frii isn't supposed to be that type of character. They are supposed to be some spirit of a bygone era that can barely be comprehended.

ETA
And who's part in an ancient prophecy has to be uncovered.

Molydeus · December 2022

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Molydeus wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

If the point is to convey that Frii doesn't have a gender, then the neopronouns aren't something that can just be skipped. The pronouns should be used and it should be clear. Otherwise the rewrite doesn't convey all of the information that the original paragraph does. So the rewrite you made doesn't work either. Also, Frii isn't supposed to be easily understood.

It's not about Frii being easy to understand, it's about making the narrative needlessly confusing. You can make a complex and compelling character without resorting to making them difficult to write.

Frii's speech is literally supposed to be confusing, it's an explicit plot point. You can make a complex and compelling character that is immediately able to be understood, but Frii isn't supposed to be that type of character. They are supposed to be some spirit of a bygone era that can barely be comprehended.

ETA
And who's part in an ancient prophecy has to be uncovered.

You're missing the point, and I think the OP's too. Frii is not difficult to understand; "they" are a genderless nature spirit who talks slowly and methodically. Once you dial back your expectations of how people should talk, Frii makes perfect sense.

The difficulty comes in the way the character is written in narrative, since Frii is referred to as a "they" and people "they" interact with are also "they". "They" are going to save "them" so "they" can help "them" do what "they" are destined for... what? Who? Who is referring to what here? Just as an example. The dialogue is confusing because the writing was poorly thought out, not because there is anything wrong with Frii.

Supreme_Atromancer · December 2022

For a counter point, btw- the scene during the party at Castle Navire(?) I think it was? I think that was very well done. Talking to the nobles, exploring their personalities, and how they talked about each other. That was a quintessentially Breton experience. *That* felt like it was approaching "Thronesian" to me. I can't play through that and agree with the opinion that all the writing of the main quest was terrible.

My problem with it is that its so limited in scope. If I encountered that, at that level, on repeated defining occasions throughout the YLA, I'd have felt that was defining. Alas, its a one-off. And again, that's a problem with space and pacing and scope. They just didn't have room to iterate on it in a way that makes the message stand out from all the rest of Tamriel's writing.

spartaxoxo · December 2022

Molydeus wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Molydeus wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

If the point is to convey that Frii doesn't have a gender, then the neopronouns aren't something that can just be skipped. The pronouns should be used and it should be clear. Otherwise the rewrite doesn't convey all of the information that the original paragraph does. So the rewrite you made doesn't work either. Also, Frii isn't supposed to be easily understood.

It's not about Frii being easy to understand, it's about making the narrative needlessly confusing. You can make a complex and compelling character without resorting to making them difficult to write.

Frii's speech is literally supposed to be confusing, it's an explicit plot point. You can make a complex and compelling character that is immediately able to be understood, but Frii isn't supposed to be that type of character. They are supposed to be some spirit of a bygone era that can barely be comprehended.

ETA
And who's part in an ancient prophecy has to be uncovered.

You're missing the point, and I think the OP's too. Frii is not difficult to understand; "they" are a genderless nature spirit who talks slowly and methodically. Once you dial back your expectations of how people should talk, Frii makes perfect sense.

"Awake? Sap flowing, roots stirring … you! You dug me up! I was … asleep. Seasons and seasons. Plucked like a flower from the dream of the Green. A promise whispered in petals. Needed."

How Frii talks. Neopronouns usage
alongside plural can be confusing, but it's not like Frii's speech is anymore easily understood without it. And rewriting it to take away the Neopronouns doesn't make it better, it loses authorial intent and information about Frii. I actually don't recall that specific piece of dialogue at all, most of the neopronoun usage I remember came from Druid Laurel.

ETA
But. I haven't finished all of Galen yet, still got a bit left, so maybe it's there.

tonyblack · December 2022

I never understood what people find in side quests and saying it’s better than the main one. I done them all just for completion and there are only a couple I could remember from recent years. Mostly though they are kind of forgettable, lack anything unique to shine among thousands and feel more like fillers.

On top of my head this year it was some evil necromancer cat trying to steal something for more power, another lady Laurant misadventure, something about AD khajits and sea elfs uncovered valuable relic Quen tried to steal. I don’t remember a single new character introduced in side quests barring companions and those in dungeons.

Main story on the other hand have some memorable new faces, interesting (though a bit predictable) plot and amusing interactions. I don’t agree with you about the villains in side quests being better designed as imho they are just as incompetent as in the main ones, though that’s part of the problem that we represent as noble hero who are bound to succeed no matter what and making different moral choices let alone picking sides is out of the question.

Ashryn · December 2022

I always enjoy the side quests and I was satisfied with the main story quests this year as well. Some bits can be annoying in some of them, but for the most part, they were enjoyable.

ZOS_Icy · December 2022

Greetings,

After further review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic.

Thank you for your understanding.

Ingel_Riday · January 2023

spartaxoxo wrote: »

"Awake? Sap flowing, roots stirring … you! You dug me up! I was … asleep. Seasons and seasons. Plucked like a flower from the dream of the Green. A promise whispered in petals. Needed."

How Frii talks. Neopronouns usage
alongside plural can be confusing, but it's not like Frii's speech is anymore easily understood without it. And rewriting it to take away the Neopronouns doesn't make it better, it loses authorial intent and information about Frii. I actually don't recall that specific piece of dialogue at all, most of the neopronoun usage I remember came from Druid Laurel.

ETA
But. I haven't finished all of Galen yet, still got a bit left, so maybe it's there.

Before I comment: a lot of great points and comments all around. I enjoyed reading them! Thanks!

Now to comment here: I've gotten further along the Galen main quest (I was 2/6th of the way through when I made my post here) and... I can't imagine the authorial intent was to befuddle and confuse.

There was an entire chain of dialogue in Quest 3 of 6 that left me laughing. To paraphrase: "Frii is the Sower, destined to shape the three seeds into the crown, gauntlet, and scepter of the Druid King. They will put the crown on their head and they will rule all druids."

So... Frii is going to put the crown on its head and become the ruler of all druids? Or is Frii going to put the crown on the Druid King's Head so that the Druid King can become the ruler of all druids? Which third person plural pronoun refers to which singular entity? This was a subpar moment, haha.

Could I judge by context and traditional story convention? Sure, and I did, but it took me completely out of the moment. "I guess Frii will shape the seeds into magical royal regalia and then give them (them referring to the seeds, not Frii or another singular entity) to the Druid King, who will wear them (again, the regalia items and not Frii or goodness knows what else is now being addressed in the third person plural) as symbols of power and authority. Eh?"

It's rough going, Vestige. This isn't adding to the mystique of Frii's speech patterns; it's adding to needless grammatical imprecision and creating clunky dialogue that needs to be actively interpreted based on context.

But... eh. I'm pretty sure I'm not the target audience for some of this dialogue. "Soon, I will be the new Druid King. Mwhahaha!" Well, you're a woman... so soon you'll be the new Druid Queen, because female monarchs are queens. Kings are male monarchs... except that no one seems to remember that word exists anymore in this main quest. Marvelous.

I've been fast-forwarding through a lot of main quest dialogue, reading as quick as possible while cringing. But... I'm being very negative. Again, on a positive note, the side-quests totally rocked. I recently fell down a YouTube rabbit hole because of them, listening to various renditions of Dagothwave. I'm grateful to have been able to see them.

Oh, and @Supreme_Atromancer : I think I didn't mind the lusty druid side quest on Galen because it didn't boil Quen down to one dimension. She had her usual plucky, humorous, adventurous persona and all her depth. She was just gradually being subverted by a creeper spell. I liked seeing her again, and I was proud of her maintaining her resolve (mostly). It was an absurdist situation with a great character not reduced or diminished in scope. I still have no complaints. It worked for me.

BenTSG · January 2023

There's an Argonian licking frogs and getting high?? I must find him!