Healing needs some major TLC

MurkyWetWolf198 · December 2022

Healing is strong
Everyone knows it's OP, not even ultra-gankblade PvP Sweatlords can kill Johnny Heals-a-Lot, the Argonian Warden, let alone the common pvper.

I got a solution.

Healing wouldn't be as effective if max health was generally lower. The dead can't heal themselves, so just gotta kill them before they can heal, get through their whole healthbar quick
But a straight nerf to max hp wouldn't work. Johnny Heals-a-Lot would just sacrifice more stats for health and healing. And that would hurt the common player too
No no, I got something better

Damage and healing are both calculated through WD/SD and max resources. However, the max resources play very little affect in this calculation (ratio is like 10.5 resource to 1 WD/SD)

What if we changed that ratio?

By tilting the ratio in favor of resources, say 7-1 (a substantial amount, but not earth shattering), max resources become way more important, right?

DON'T weaken WD/SD, just make resources more effective/impactful/strong/whatever

Ultra-gankblade PvP Sweatlords will be able to get more damage by sacking health, hopefully enough to kill Johnny Heals-a-Lot

Common players will get a new source of damage, and be encouraged away from turning into more Johnnys, and they might be able to fight back against Sweatlords with BIG DD Numbers

Meanwhile, Johnny Heals-a-Lot won't be able to get more max resource because he's all into max health. If he wants access to the increased healing, he's gotta get squishier, lower that hp

Also, this solves some other issues;
Those useless set-bonuses adding max resources aren't useless anymore
This won't negatively affect PvE, and will even help them recover damage lost from U35
Sustain will become relatively easier, and recovery won't be as important (well, it'll be important, just not literally the end-all-be-all)
Sorcs would pop-tf-off cause max mag would actually be a good stat

Just sayin, I think this is a dope idea. Who wants to tell me I'm wrong?
(SOMEONE TELL ME HOW TO MAKE A POLL ON THIS THING PLS)

MurkyWetWolf198 · December 2022

Nvm, I'd have to have started it as a poll

Sparxlost · December 2022

i actually think the right way to do it is to change how healing scales then remove the healing taken passive from heavy armor while granting it more health per piece and maybe more resistance...

so frontline brawler dps cant really heal themselves but can still take on multiple (like two or three at most) enemies if they are good at damage...

heavy armor would then be for brawler dps and tanks who boast high amounts of health with sufficient resistances.. and obviously low healing potential..

Araneae6537 · December 2022

No, please no further nerfs to heals. IMHO there have been too many already and other changes (ring of the pale order, I’m looking at you) to make support roles less fun and rewarding.

endgamesmug · December 2022

Healing holds absolutely no appeal and has no enjoyment for me anymore, on the trashheap along with tanking. In another 3 years itll be good again when they decide on major changes again, just like morrowind so itll just be adapting by doing something else till then.

Elendir2am · December 2022

Absolutely last thing I wish in PvP are stronger gankers.

Darkstorne · December 2022

From a PVE perspective, lowering max health would be a disaster. Honestly, increasing max health might help PVE healers out, because this game already suffers from any damage taken from a boss attack being a major problem (vet dungeon perspective and higher, not normal dungeons where tanks and healers sadly seem to be optional).

Reactive healing, unlike in most MMOs, doesn't work well here. In WoW you might think "that DPS is at 75% health, he's fine, I'll heal the tank who's at 50% health then swing back around to the DPS if he drops below 60%" etc. In ESO damage happens so fast and in such large amounts that any time anyone drops below 100% health they need healing immediately. So the strategy has to be a reliance on HOTs to keep everyone topped up from basic damage (mobs, dots etc) and then the DPS' job is mostly to avoid taking damage from boss attacks. If they do take damage, it's usually such a huge amount that as a healer you then have to hit your emergency panic button big heal to get them back up to 100% immediately, because one more hit and that DPS is dead.

It's why skilled healers don't do much healing in this game. When paired with skilled DPS there isn't much reactive healing to do, so the focus becomes buffing the DPS and assisting with damage yourself to bring the boss down as fast as possible, reducing the amount of time spent dodging the big damage mechanics.

Honestly, as a long-time fan of PVE healing in MMOs, ESO has the weirdest healing mechanics I've ever seen. The goal is damage avoidance - if your group needs active heals it's probably because they messed up - and as a healer you should be maximising your time spent dealing damage and buffing the group, not healing.

MurkyWetWolf198 · December 2022

I think my point may have been unclear; there is nothing that’s going to directly hurt healing, nor will lead to healer’s being less valuable. Nor would max health be decreased directly (Darkstorne), Mag and Stam resources themselves would simply become more valuable. PvE DDs already run the most amount of primary resources possible and often sit around 18k-24k Max HP depending food. They would have no means to lower health anymore than the current threshold is. In fact, the literal only changes to PvE my idea would entail is giving heals and DDs a buff in power (sorely needed after U35) and making the set bonuses of max resource actually useful. There aren’t any other effects, cause DD already run minimum health or close to it.
The reason this change might work for PvP is because most players are stacking into extremely high-health by sacrificing other max resources (and compensating with high recovery). This change would give people incentive to branch out away from high health, and because tanky players would have to sacrifice some of they’re health, we wouldn’t get a situation where a build can be unkillable and have high damage. This in turn would lessen healing power because overheating is functionally useless unless you’re in SPC or something.
Also, a 20%-30% nerf within Battle Spirit to Healing received from other players would help a lot too, as cross-healing is the other big problem. However, my idea dies nothing to counter that
All this does is give players more options, and diversifies away from tanky pvp by increasing the value of max resources so that people actually want to get above 22k mag and 16k stam

Araneae6537 · December 2022

Darkstorne wrote: »

From a PVE perspective, lowering max health would be a disaster. Honestly, increasing max health might help PVE healers out, because this game already suffers from any damage taken from a boss attack being a major problem (vet dungeon perspective and higher, not normal dungeons where tanks and healers sadly seem to be optional).

Reactive healing, unlike in most MMOs, doesn't work well here. In WoW you might think "that DPS is at 75% health, he's fine, I'll heal the tank who's at 50% health then swing back around to the DPS if he drops below 60%" etc. In ESO damage happens so fast and in such large amounts that any time anyone drops below 100% health they need healing immediately. So the strategy has to be a reliance on HOTs to keep everyone topped up from basic damage (mobs, dots etc) and then the DPS' job is mostly to avoid taking damage from boss attacks. If they do take damage, it's usually such a huge amount that as a healer you then have to hit your emergency panic button big heal to get them back up to 100% immediately, because one more hit and that DPS is dead.

It's why skilled healers don't do much healing in this game. When paired with skilled DPS there isn't much reactive healing to do, so the focus becomes buffing the DPS and assisting with damage yourself to bring the boss down as fast as possible, reducing the amount of time spent dodging the big damage mechanics.

Honestly, as a long-time fan of PVE healing in MMOs, ESO has the weirdest healing mechanics I've ever seen. The goal is damage avoidance - if your group needs active heals it's probably because they messed up - and as a healer you should be maximising your time spent dealing damage and buffing the group, not healing.

Agreed! I am happy to provide buffs and proactive HoTs, but healing is most rewarding when you can save the day, or at least keep another player in the fight, or when certain mechanics can be skipped, for it to rely just as much on dedicated healers doing their job well in addition to DPS. But in ESO, there are just too many one-shot or nearly so mechanics and that is really frustrating. Of course I don’t think everything should be able to be healed through, but when it’s that on the one hand and gimmicks like ring of the pale order sufficient on the other, it doesn’t leave healers in a good place.

OBJnoob · December 2022

I understand what you're saying OP. Good idea. I think this has been what's needed for a long time.

jerj6925 · December 2022

When you make an adjustment to "healing" you affect all classes\races, not all classes\races are the problem.

You could go with something like while in combat healing yourself is reduced by 80% but someone else healing you is 100% effective on you. This would promote teamwork and reduce so many god mode classes in PVP like wardens and dragon knights.. even night blades are off the charts amazing healers for themselves.

MidniteOwl1913 · December 2022

One of the first posts I read, when I started on forums over a year and a half ago, was about OP healing in PVP. ZOS has already done a number of across-the-board nerfs to healing to address PVP complaints, and yet here we are again.

OBJnoob · December 2022

Nerfing healing doesn't accomplish anything in the long run when every new update introduces better and better crit/damage sets which healing continues to scale with.

Healing will continue to need periodic adjustments as long as it remains tied to the exact same power creep as everything else.

CGPsaint · December 2022

Running into groups of 3-4 players who can stack heals/buffs on themselves and take on groups of 25-30 is everything that is wrong with this game. Limit the total sources of healing/buffs that any player can receive in PvP and kill this ridiculous tank/healing meta.

Nihilr · December 2022

MurkyWetWolf198 wrote: »

Healing is strong
Everyone knows it's OP, not even ultra-gankblade PvP Sweatlords can kill Johnny Heals-a-Lot, the Argonian Warden, let alone the common pvper.

I got a solution.

Healing wouldn't be as effective if max health was generally lower. The dead can't heal themselves, so just gotta kill them before they can heal, get through their whole healthbar quick
But a straight nerf to max hp wouldn't work. Johnny Heals-a-Lot would just sacrifice more stats for health and healing. And that would hurt the common player too
No no, I got something better

Damage and healing are both calculated through WD/SD and max resources. However, the max resources play very little affect in this calculation (ratio is like 10.5 resource to 1 WD/SD)

What if we changed that ratio?

By tilting the ratio in favor of resources, say 7-1 (a substantial amount, but not earth shattering), max resources become way more important, right?

DON'T weaken WD/SD, just make resources more effective/impactful/strong/whatever

Ultra-gankblade PvP Sweatlords will be able to get more damage by sacking health, hopefully enough to kill Johnny Heals-a-Lot

Common players will get a new source of damage, and be encouraged away from turning into more Johnnys, and they might be able to fight back against Sweatlords with BIG DD Numbers

Meanwhile, Johnny Heals-a-Lot won't be able to get more max resource because he's all into max health. If he wants access to the increased healing, he's gotta get squishier, lower that hp

Also, this solves some other issues;
Those useless set-bonuses adding max resources aren't useless anymore
This won't negatively affect PvE, and will even help them recover damage lost from U35
Sustain will become relatively easier, and recovery won't be as important (well, it'll be important, just not literally the end-all-be-all)
Sorcs would pop-tf-off cause max mag would actually be a good stat

Ok, so a LOT of people keep ignoring what you wrote and are claiming this thread is about nerfing healing--it's not.

This post is about separating "healing done" from "damage done" stats. It's been brought up hundreds of times, and it's actually a problem. The people who support the current system are the ones who abuse it the most (streamers, 1vX'ers, etc). I've actually been more happy with the core combat changes that Zenimax has made this year, more than the disappointment with some nerfs to sets/builds. The next steps would be to address the topic of this thread: Separate healing from damage.

That means *Healing critical chance*, *healing critical bonus*, and *raw healing power* must become ~their own stats~ !!!

Resources are important or both healing and damage, and shouldn't be tied to healing amount done/received, only because otherwise the sustain/regen rates would be all put onto DD sets/builds.

TechMaybeHic · December 2022

I am entirely against setting it to where for PvP, you are healer-dependent and eliminating self-reliant play. Which is what this usually boils down to, or at least attempts to. Often times, people just suggest something that just winds up leading to stacking max resources for both damage and healing over weapon and spell damage.

The_Titan_Tim · December 2022

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/623954/fixing-the-defensive-meta#latest

I’m of the exact same mindset, it’s the least PvE offensive way to do this as all PvE builds spec into high stats of their choice, they would just need to make a health based heal available for all classes, and the vampire ult-gen one just doesn’t cut it.

MurkyWetWolf198 · December 2022

Nihilr wrote: »

MurkyWetWolf198 wrote: »

Healing is strong
Everyone knows it's OP, not even ultra-gankblade PvP Sweatlords can kill Johnny Heals-a-Lot, the Argonian Warden, let alone the common pvper.

I got a solution.

Healing wouldn't be as effective if max health was generally lower. The dead can't heal themselves, so just gotta kill them before they can heal, get through their whole healthbar quick
But a straight nerf to max hp wouldn't work. Johnny Heals-a-Lot would just sacrifice more stats for health and healing. And that would hurt the common player too
No no, I got something better

Damage and healing are both calculated through WD/SD and max resources. However, the max resources play very little affect in this calculation (ratio is like 10.5 resource to 1 WD/SD)

What if we changed that ratio?

By tilting the ratio in favor of resources, say 7-1 (a substantial amount, but not earth shattering), max resources become way more important, right?

DON'T weaken WD/SD, just make resources more effective/impactful/strong/whatever

Ultra-gankblade PvP Sweatlords will be able to get more damage by sacking health, hopefully enough to kill Johnny Heals-a-Lot

Common players will get a new source of damage, and be encouraged away from turning into more Johnnys, and they might be able to fight back against Sweatlords with BIG DD Numbers

Meanwhile, Johnny Heals-a-Lot won't be able to get more max resource because he's all into max health. If he wants access to the increased healing, he's gotta get squishier, lower that hp

Also, this solves some other issues;
Those useless set-bonuses adding max resources aren't useless anymore
This won't negatively affect PvE, and will even help them recover damage lost from U35
Sustain will become relatively easier, and recovery won't be as important (well, it'll be important, just not literally the end-all-be-all)
Sorcs would pop-tf-off cause max mag would actually be a good stat

Ok, so a LOT of people keep ignoring what you wrote and are claiming this thread is about nerfing healing--it's not.

This post is about separating "healing done" from "damage done" stats. It's been brought up hundreds of times, and it's actually a problem. The people who support the current system are the ones who abuse it the most (streamers, 1vX'ers, etc). I've actually been more happy with the core combat changes that Zenimax has made this year, more than the disappointment with some nerfs to sets/builds. The next steps would be to address the topic of this thread: Separate healing from damage.

That means *Healing critical chance*, *healing critical bonus*, and *raw healing power* must become ~their own stats~ !!!

Resources are important or both healing and damage, and shouldn't be tied to healing amount done/received, only because otherwise the sustain/regen rates would be all put onto DD sets/builds.

Man, even you missed my point.

Did no one read my original post?

My idea is really simple; make max resources more powerful. Literally just increase their affect in ability calculations.

I’m not saying separate them from the calculations

I’m not saying make resources for healing and WD/SD for Damage

I’m not saying nerf healing (except a nerf to specifically cross-healing; people in PvP should receive 20%-30% less healing from abilities from other players) (this was irrelevant to my original idea, and only and up in replies)

I’m only saying make resources more powerful

This will buff PvE dps and PvE heals just flat out, no side effects.

This will encourage PvP builds to run more max resources instead of stacking all into max health

Less stacking into max health in PvP will make builds less tanky, and healing will be INDIRECTLY nerfed because heals won’t have as much of a health bar to heal

It’s not perfect, and I’m looking for criticism, but can y’all actually read my points and understand them before responding?

DrNukenstein · December 2022

I endorse this platform, and think damage procs should get resource scaling too.

I'm not saying going 64 mag isn't significant damage on a well geared character, but it's not as much damage as 64 levels worth of stats would be in most games of this nature.

The big hole in the idea is that people who go 64 health would still get the extra damage scaling with all of the free mag and stam you get just for being a character in the game. An idea like this should be paired with separating base stam and mag from bonus stam and mag and have only bonus stam and/or mag contribute to damage. Bonus being any stats you get from passives, CP, gear, food, buffs, or points invested.

AdamLAD · December 2022

I'd rather make max stats, weapon and spell damage scale the same so one is not more powerful than the other HOWEVER in terms of damage, max stats will not stack with damage and vice versa only healing. You would have to choose either damage or max stats for damage. Nerf healing via battle spirit by 50% and cross healing by an extra 25% on top. Then I'd cap HP at 30k in PvP. So people would be forced to run more max stats in either mag or stamina. Damage would be higher across the board as theres more builds that are viable due to max stats being an option again. Healing would be weaker in PvP and a bit stronger in PvE and HP would be way lower in PvP.

Nihilr · January 2023

MurkyWetWolf198 wrote: »

Man, even you missed my point.

Did no one read my original post?

My idea is really simple; make max resources more powerful. Literally just increase their affect in ability calculations.

I’m not saying separate them from the calculations

I’m not saying make resources for healing and WD/SD for Damage

I’m not saying nerf healing (except a nerf to specifically cross-healing; people in PvP should receive 20%-30% less healing from abilities from other players) (this was irrelevant to my original idea, and only and up in replies)

I’m only saying make resources more powerful

This will buff PvE dps and PvE heals just flat out, no side effects.

This will encourage PvP builds to run more max resources instead of stacking all into max health

Less stacking into max health in PvP will make builds less tanky, and healing will be INDIRECTLY nerfed because heals won’t have as much of a health bar to heal

It’s not perfect, and I’m looking for criticism, but can y’all actually read my points and understand them before responding?

No, because they already tried your method of max resources effecting heals and damage shields and it was "broken."

Healing needs it's own stats. And if solo players want better self heals, they should sacrifice a little bit of damage to do so. It's like this in most other games, and should be a basis for ESO as well. If you put points into opposing roles, both roles will suffer a little.

So no, I read it and disagreed with your original post, because historically you proposed something that was already tried and failed.

tl;dr Resource stacking used to be "a thing."

MurkyWetWolf198 · January 2023

Nihilr wrote: »

MurkyWetWolf198 wrote: »

Man, even you missed my point.

Did no one read my original post?

My idea is really simple; make max resources more powerful. Literally just increase their affect in ability calculations.

I’m not saying separate them from the calculations

I’m not saying make resources for healing and WD/SD for Damage

I’m not saying nerf healing (except a nerf to specifically cross-healing; people in PvP should receive 20%-30% less healing from abilities from other players) (this was irrelevant to my original idea, and only and up in replies)

I’m only saying make resources more powerful

This will buff PvE dps and PvE heals just flat out, no side effects.

This will encourage PvP builds to run more max resources instead of stacking all into max health

Less stacking into max health in PvP will make builds less tanky, and healing will be INDIRECTLY nerfed because heals won’t have as much of a health bar to heal

It’s not perfect, and I’m looking for criticism, but can y’all actually read my points and understand them before responding?

No, because they already tried your method of max resources effecting heals and damage shields and it was "broken."

Healing needs it's own stats. And if solo players want better self heals, they should sacrifice a little bit of damage to do so. It's like this in most other games, and should be a basis for ESO as well. If you put points into opposing roles, both roles will suffer a little.

So no, I read it and disagreed with your original post, because historically you proposed something that was already tried and failed.

tl;dr Resource stacking used to be "a thing."

I never mentioned resource stacking. I'm talking about countering resource-skimming. PvPer's like to resource skim by just relying on sustain, and I'm saying they should lose out on something for doing that, specifically healing AND DAMAGE (not damage shields, DAMAGE DONE, since you, again, completely missed that point). Don't make resources so valuable they outscale damage and we go back to Necropotence+CraftyAlfiq Meta, just make max resources a necessary investment so that not investing (like current meta PvP builds) makes you significantly weaker. It's a balance. Don't make resources to valuable, but make them more worthwhile than they are now *(because they're completely ignorable in PvP)