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If eso went full casual/easier would you still play it? - Poll
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Seminolegirl1992✭✭✭✭✭NoAll out quit- no. I would just stick to housing and rp at that point.@Seminolegirl1992 PC/NA CP 2700+ PVE, PVP, RP, Housing: Tel Galen, Fair Winds, Moon Sugar, Grand Psijic, Forsaken, HOTLC, Bastion, Ravenhurst, Gardner, Alinor, Hakkvild's, Gorinir, Kragenhome, Hundings, & more- feel free to come see!Misery's Master | Unstoppable | Mindmender | Swashbuckler Supreme | Planesbreaker | Dawnbringer | Godslayer | Gryphon Heart | Immortal Redeemer | Tick Tock Tormentor | Dro-m'athra Destroyer | Former Empress0 -
BretonMage✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I want some of those changes, but don't want others.DMuehlhausen wrote: »Now you're a ZoS excutive and you're ask yourself how do we keep the game alive and making money. Do we cater to the people spending twice as much but billions less, or do we cater to the largest player base making us a lot more money.
By the way acting like you don't know casuals make up the vast majority of the playerbase is you admitting you know they make up the vast majority of the playerbase. Nobody that plays an MMO of this size can honestly think they believe the majority of players are pushing leaderboards for trials, or solo arenas. I only PvP in Cyrodil during events and it never takes me long to get in. So there are maybe 100k people doing that at an given time.
Just admit casuals control the game the content is always going to be catered to them. At this point they know they can't balance PvP properly so they aren't going to, they aren't going to suddenly push out a ton more content for something will just complain about that isn't balanced. It makes no sense at all.
The most vocal groups on forums are always the extreme on both sides (so your hardcore players) because any minor change to a system can seriously effect their game play. The casual player will just respond with well that sucks, hate the new jab graphic, but meh whatever I'll deal with and get use to it.
ZoS will never give us exact numbers, like every other company but seriously just use your eyes and look where people are in the world and in your guild.
This, basically. And not just for MMOs but basically any industry which profits from mass consumption of their products. I have another hobby (honestly, insert any hobby) where passionate enthusiasts spend easily 40-50 times more per person than the casual consumer, but the sheer volume of casuals means that as a group we could never hope to come close to matching their spending power. It really drove home for me the fact that hard-core enthusiasts form a tiny and unfortunately ignored minority of a customer base. I do think hard-core enthusiasts are listened to a lot more in gaming than out there in other industries, for what little it may be worth.
Nonetheless, I believe that established, passionate enthusiasts should be treasured by any company, as they are probably some of the only ones with a deep knowledge and heartfelt experience of a company's heritage and products. It's always a tragedy to just sever ties with that sort of knowledge and passion.0 -
LittlePinkDot✭✭✭✭✭I want some of those changes, but don't want others.I don't want to take away anybody else's fun.
Just stop gatekeeping monster helmets.
Expand the golden vendor so I can buy what I want instead of frustratingly banging my head against a wall trying to get to a functioning pug.
I almost exclusively use crafted and overland sets just to avoid dungeons.
And don't even talk to me about trials, pffft!2 -
SaffronCitrusflower✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭NoThese forums certainly are, now days anyway, dominated by the casual quest player who doesn't engage in any challenging game content. It wasn't always this way however. When ZOS started moving away from supporting the challenging game content, PvP and end game PvE specifically, the majority of those players gave up and have moved away from the game, so you don't see them posting on the forums anymore either. They're gone.5 -
Xandreia_✭✭✭✭✭
✭NoSilverBride wrote: »My experience is it's the end game PvE players that spend the most, followed closely by the hard core PvP players. The only people I know that have spent literally thousands of dollars on the game are the end game PvE and PvP players. Certainly they are the players that spend the most per account.
My friends who are into Housing spend a LOT for Crowns and Crown Store only Houses and Furniture packs etc. I can't imagine what an end game PvE player or hard core PvP player would be spending that would be so much more than these things.
Race change, cosmetics, alliance change, mounts, crown crates, appearance changes, houses just for titles (I've done this for the lady title and so has alot of people in pvp) crown packs to sell (you can make millions of gold). Just because we don't do housing doesn't mean we don't do waste excess cash on things in the crown store like others.3 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭YesSilverBride wrote: »My experience is it's the end game PvE players that spend the most, followed closely by the hard core PvP players. The only people I know that have spent literally thousands of dollars on the game are the end game PvE and PvP players. Certainly they are the players that spend the most per account.
My friends who are into Housing spend a LOT for Crowns and Crown Store only Houses and Furniture packs etc. I can't imagine what an end game PvE player or hard core PvP player would be spending that would be so much more than these things.
Race change, cosmetics, alliance change, mounts, crown crates, appearance changes, houses just for titles (I've done this for the lady title and so has alot of people in pvp) crown packs to sell (you can make millions of gold). Just because we don't do housing doesn't mean we don't do waste excess cash on things in the crown store like others.
Players who are into housing also buy cosmetics, appearance changes, race changes, mounts, crown crates as well as Houses and Furniture packs.
But my point was that end game PvE and hardcore PvP players are not the biggest purchasers and are not the ones that spend the most per account.PCNA0 -
MudcrabAttack✭✭✭✭✭NoI’m tempted to say this game has already drifted into casual mode, but it all depends on experience level. Since my trials prog guild has been on holiday break I’ve been joining pugs in craglorn, and finished HM Rakkhat on the 4th pad (would have been third pad with the runners out, but some parser decided to blow people up with orbs and nobody rezzed the dead), HM Sunspire, Vet Rockgrove in 20 minutes, Vet Dreadsail, got most of the gold jewelry I ever wanted. The pug leaders didn’t ask for dps, all they wanted was prior vet experience - not even necessarily HM experience
The pugs were incredibly laid back, most dps used heavy attack Oakensorc builds, and my build is a wood elf archer nightblade, and nobody was bothered by any of it perhaps because the Hodors addon showed that we carried our weight. I would have had fun doing all that stuff with the guild friends who are even more casual, even if it all took 3x longer, but it wouldn’t have been fun at all if every objective was easily 100% obtainable with mechanics removed.0 -
ProudMary✭✭✭✭✭
✭NoSilverBride wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »My experience is it's the end game PvE players that spend the most, followed closely by the hard core PvP players. The only people I know that have spent literally thousands of dollars on the game are the end game PvE and PvP players. Certainly they are the players that spend the most per account.
My friends who are into Housing spend a LOT for Crowns and Crown Store only Houses and Furniture packs etc. I can't imagine what an end game PvE player or hard core PvP player would be spending that would be so much more than these things.
Race change, cosmetics, alliance change, mounts, crown crates, appearance changes, houses just for titles (I've done this for the lady title and so has alot of people in pvp) crown packs to sell (you can make millions of gold). Just because we don't do housing doesn't mean we don't do waste excess cash on things in the crown store like others.
Players who are into housing also buy cosmetics, appearance changes, race changes, mounts, crown crates as well as Houses and Furniture packs.
But my point was that end game PvE and hardcore PvP players are not the biggest purchasers and are not the ones that spend the most per account.
How do you know it's not the end game PvE and hardcore PvP players that spend the most $ per account? If you're not a ZOS employee or married to one who's come home and discussed the matter with you how can you be so confident this statement is factual?
4 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭YesSilverBride wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »My experience is it's the end game PvE players that spend the most, followed closely by the hard core PvP players. The only people I know that have spent literally thousands of dollars on the game are the end game PvE and PvP players. Certainly they are the players that spend the most per account.
My friends who are into Housing spend a LOT for Crowns and Crown Store only Houses and Furniture packs etc. I can't imagine what an end game PvE player or hard core PvP player would be spending that would be so much more than these things.
Race change, cosmetics, alliance change, mounts, crown crates, appearance changes, houses just for titles (I've done this for the lady title and so has alot of people in pvp) crown packs to sell (you can make millions of gold). Just because we don't do housing doesn't mean we don't do waste excess cash on things in the crown store like others.
Players who are into housing also buy cosmetics, appearance changes, race changes, mounts, crown crates as well as Houses and Furniture packs.
But my point was that end game PvE and hardcore PvP players are not the biggest purchasers and are not the ones that spend the most per account.
How do you know it's not the end game PvE and hardcore PvP players that spend the most $ per account? If you're not a ZOS employee or married to one who's come home and discussed the matter with you how can you be so confident this statement is factual?
How do you know that it is?PCNA3 -
MrGarlic✭✭✭✭✭
✭I want some of those changes, but don't want others.I like the imperial city option best. I've tried on a few occasions, to complete the PvE storyline there but always end up being killed by another player, so I gave up.
I'd love to be able to finish it.'Sharp Arrows'Mr.GarlicHidden by darkness, a shadow in the night,A sped arrow dissecting the gloom,Finding it's target, such delight.1 -
LadyLavina✭✭✭✭✭
✭I like the imperial city option best. I've tried on a few occasions, to complete the PvE storyline there but always end up being killed by another player, so I gave up.
I'd love to be able to finish it.
This may sound snarky but I genuinely mean it,
Build a troll tank and go do it, something that just heals and nothing else. You can slot attacks when necessary for the story but just be a brick wall otherwise.
Spoken as someone who has thousands of hours doing just that and witnessing people give up and leave you alone after seeing your health pool or ridiculous sustain ability.
Edited by LadyLavina on December 31, 2022 8:48PMPC - NA @LadyLavina 1800+ CP PvP Tank and PvP Healer3 -
SirAxen✭✭✭✭✭YesDMuehlhausen wrote: »DMuehlhausen wrote: »DMuehlhausen wrote: »What do you mean if? The game went full casual with 1T after a year of it being out essentially. They cater towards the casual player just as every game essentially does since those are the players that make them money.
I've seen many posts of yours that claim it's the casual quest player that makes so much money for ZOS, but that makes no sense to me. Wouldn't it be the hardcore, daily player that wants the latest/greatest everything that spends the most money on the game? What makes you so sure it's the casual quest player that makes the most money for ZOS?
By far the people that spend the most money on the game are the casual players. They / we make up around 90% of the playerbase probably (that's about the same as every other MMO). We are the parents really that no longer have 10 hours to play and then 5 hours to raid. We also have disposable income to buy crowns on a monthly basis. I pay the annual sub so 149$ I believe. Then every month I spend 39.99$ for the 5500 crown pack. then if they go on sale I'll spend another 100$ for the 21k crowns. So annually they make at min 1000$/year just from me. I'll drop more if there is a house they put up or something and I don't have the crowns to buy it.
Your average pvper and end game pve player aren't dropping literally thousands a year for housing, or furnishing packs. Obviously there are exceptions to every rule, but normally this is the case. So the casual players are the ones that are dumping millions a year into the game. That is what keeps it running.chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »DMuehlhausen wrote: »What do you mean if? The game went full casual with 1T after a year of it being out essentially. They cater towards the casual player just as every game essentially does since those are the players that make them money.
I've seen many posts of yours that claim it's the casual quest player that makes so much money for ZOS, but that makes no sense to me. Wouldn't it be the hardcore, daily player that wants the latest/greatest everything that spends the most money on the game? What makes you so sure it's the casual quest player that makes the most money for ZOS?
The number of hardcore daily players simply isn't that high they are just ridiculously over-represented on forums and social media.
Many of the hardcore daily players care less about cosmetic items than the casual players.
Many of the hardcore daily players also have easier access to obtain many items without buying crowns.
By far the people that spend the most money on the game are the casual players. They / we make up around 90% of the playerbase probably (that's about the same as every other MMO). We are the parents really that no longer have 10 hours to play and then 5 hours to raid. We also have disposable income to buy crowns on a monthly basis. I pay the annual sub so 149$ I believe. Then every month I spend 39.99$ for the 5500 crown pack. then if they go on sale I'll spend another 100$ for the 21k crowns. So annually they make at min 1000$/year just from me. I'll drop more if there is a house they put up or something and I don't have the crowns to buy it.
Your average pvper and end game pve player aren't dropping literally thousands a year for housing, or furnishing packs. Obviously there are exceptions to every rule, but normally this is the case. So the casual players are the ones that are dumping millions a year into the game. That is what keeps it running.[/q
This 100%
People on the forums want people and zos to believe that none of this is true.
I get this is a FEELING that some believe, but where's the proof? How do you know your feeling about this is factually accurate?
My experience is it's the end game PvE players that spend the most, followed closely by the hard core PvP players. The only people I know that have spent literally thousands of dollars on the game are the end game PvE and PvP players. Certainly they are the players that spend the most per account.
I also believe that it's only an opinion that the end game PvE and PvP community make up a small portion of the player population. I have no way of knowing what proportion of the player population are the end game community though.
I'm asking how someone who's not an employee of ZOS could so confidently state their belief as fact that it's the casual questers that generate the most financial support for the game.
Because I've put time into basically every major MMO since UO and it's the same patterns here.
Just look at any guild you're in that has 500 people. Now be honest, how many are in a prog group? How many are in Cyrodil or Battlegrounds? Maybe 20-30 for the program group? then maybe the same or slightly less for PvP. Even if a "Hardcore Trial Guild" there might be 2 or 3 groups that are consistently running with maybe 2 or 3 people rotating in and out in those groups.
The last I saw they posted saying they had 15 Million accounts. So if you look at roughly the same percentages that's what 12 Million casual players. Then 1.5 Million each on the "hardcore PvP/PvE". Lets assume you're right and the hardcore players spend double what casuals do. Let's say the casuals spend about the same as I do. I'm probably below average, but for argument sake. How much is that among casuals?
Now lets combine both PvP and PvE hardcore players they spend double so roughly 2,000 a year how much is that?
Now you're a ZoS excutive and you're ask yourself how do we keep the game alive and making money. Do we cater to the people spending twice as much but billions less, or do we cater to the largest player base making us a lot more money.
By the way acting like you don't know casuals make up the vast majority of the playerbase is you admitting you know they make up the vast majority of the playerbase. Nobody that plays an MMO of this size can honestly think they believe the majority of players are pushing leaderboards for trials, or solo arenas. I only PvP in Cyrodil during events and it never takes me long to get in. So there are maybe 100k people doing that at an given time.
Just admit casuals control the game the content is always going to be catered to them. At this point they know they can't balance PvP properly so they aren't going to, they aren't going to suddenly push out a ton more content for something will just complain about that isn't balanced. It makes no sense at all.
The most vocal groups on forums are always the extreme on both sides (so your hardcore players) because any minor change to a system can seriously effect their game play. The casual player will just respond with well that sucks, hate the new jab graphic, but meh whatever I'll deal with and get use to it.
ZoS will never give us exact numbers, like every other company but seriously just use your eyes and look where people are in the world and in your guild.
What you're saying is that it's your belief that it's the casual questers that generate the most revenue for ZOS. This is an assumption on your part, not a known fact. I don't believe you are an employee of ZOS, so you are just assuming you know where the bulk of the revenue is generated. Without being a ZOS employee there is no way to know for sure. As you say in your post, "ZOS will never give us exact numbers".
Hardcore endgame grind folks are not keeping the lights on. I don't care how much you wanna pretend that isn't the case.6 -
ProudMary✭✭✭✭✭
✭NoSilverBride wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »My experience is it's the end game PvE players that spend the most, followed closely by the hard core PvP players. The only people I know that have spent literally thousands of dollars on the game are the end game PvE and PvP players. Certainly they are the players that spend the most per account.
My friends who are into Housing spend a LOT for Crowns and Crown Store only Houses and Furniture packs etc. I can't imagine what an end game PvE player or hard core PvP player would be spending that would be so much more than these things.
Race change, cosmetics, alliance change, mounts, crown crates, appearance changes, houses just for titles (I've done this for the lady title and so has alot of people in pvp) crown packs to sell (you can make millions of gold). Just because we don't do housing doesn't mean we don't do waste excess cash on things in the crown store like others.
Players who are into housing also buy cosmetics, appearance changes, race changes, mounts, crown crates as well as Houses and Furniture packs.
But my point was that end game PvE and hardcore PvP players are not the biggest purchasers and are not the ones that spend the most per account.
How do you know it's not the end game PvE and hardcore PvP players that spend the most $ per account? If you're not a ZOS employee or married to one who's come home and discussed the matter with you how can you be so confident this statement is factual?
How do you know that it is?
I know that most of the end game PvE and PvP players also sink major bank into housing. So in addition to being around the longest, and paying for an ESO+ sub the longest, they are also putting serious bank into housing. So it stands to reason that these are the ESO whales, not the players that only invest in one aspect of the game.DMuehlhausen wrote: »DMuehlhausen wrote: »DMuehlhausen wrote: »What do you mean if? The game went full casual with 1T after a year of it being out essentially. They cater towards the casual player just as every game essentially does since those are the players that make them money.
I've seen many posts of yours that claim it's the casual quest player that makes so much money for ZOS, but that makes no sense to me. Wouldn't it be the hardcore, daily player that wants the latest/greatest everything that spends the most money on the game? What makes you so sure it's the casual quest player that makes the most money for ZOS?
By far the people that spend the most money on the game are the casual players. They / we make up around 90% of the playerbase probably (that's about the same as every other MMO). We are the parents really that no longer have 10 hours to play and then 5 hours to raid. We also have disposable income to buy crowns on a monthly basis. I pay the annual sub so 149$ I believe. Then every month I spend 39.99$ for the 5500 crown pack. then if they go on sale I'll spend another 100$ for the 21k crowns. So annually they make at min 1000$/year just from me. I'll drop more if there is a house they put up or something and I don't have the crowns to buy it.
Your average pvper and end game pve player aren't dropping literally thousands a year for housing, or furnishing packs. Obviously there are exceptions to every rule, but normally this is the case. So the casual players are the ones that are dumping millions a year into the game. That is what keeps it running.chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »DMuehlhausen wrote: »What do you mean if? The game went full casual with 1T after a year of it being out essentially. They cater towards the casual player just as every game essentially does since those are the players that make them money.
I've seen many posts of yours that claim it's the casual quest player that makes so much money for ZOS, but that makes no sense to me. Wouldn't it be the hardcore, daily player that wants the latest/greatest everything that spends the most money on the game? What makes you so sure it's the casual quest player that makes the most money for ZOS?
The number of hardcore daily players simply isn't that high they are just ridiculously over-represented on forums and social media.
Many of the hardcore daily players care less about cosmetic items than the casual players.
Many of the hardcore daily players also have easier access to obtain many items without buying crowns.
By far the people that spend the most money on the game are the casual players. They / we make up around 90% of the playerbase probably (that's about the same as every other MMO). We are the parents really that no longer have 10 hours to play and then 5 hours to raid. We also have disposable income to buy crowns on a monthly basis. I pay the annual sub so 149$ I believe. Then every month I spend 39.99$ for the 5500 crown pack. then if they go on sale I'll spend another 100$ for the 21k crowns. So annually they make at min 1000$/year just from me. I'll drop more if there is a house they put up or something and I don't have the crowns to buy it.
Your average pvper and end game pve player aren't dropping literally thousands a year for housing, or furnishing packs. Obviously there are exceptions to every rule, but normally this is the case. So the casual players are the ones that are dumping millions a year into the game. That is what keeps it running.[/q
This 100%
People on the forums want people and zos to believe that none of this is true.
I get this is a FEELING that some believe, but where's the proof? How do you know your feeling about this is factually accurate?
My experience is it's the end game PvE players that spend the most, followed closely by the hard core PvP players. The only people I know that have spent literally thousands of dollars on the game are the end game PvE and PvP players. Certainly they are the players that spend the most per account.
I also believe that it's only an opinion that the end game PvE and PvP community make up a small portion of the player population. I have no way of knowing what proportion of the player population are the end game community though.
I'm asking how someone who's not an employee of ZOS could so confidently state their belief as fact that it's the casual questers that generate the most financial support for the game.
Because I've put time into basically every major MMO since UO and it's the same patterns here.
Just look at any guild you're in that has 500 people. Now be honest, how many are in a prog group? How many are in Cyrodil or Battlegrounds? Maybe 20-30 for the program group? then maybe the same or slightly less for PvP. Even if a "Hardcore Trial Guild" there might be 2 or 3 groups that are consistently running with maybe 2 or 3 people rotating in and out in those groups.
The last I saw they posted saying they had 15 Million accounts. So if you look at roughly the same percentages that's what 12 Million casual players. Then 1.5 Million each on the "hardcore PvP/PvE". Lets assume you're right and the hardcore players spend double what casuals do. Let's say the casuals spend about the same as I do. I'm probably below average, but for argument sake. How much is that among casuals?
Now lets combine both PvP and PvE hardcore players they spend double so roughly 2,000 a year how much is that?
Now you're a ZoS excutive and you're ask yourself how do we keep the game alive and making money. Do we cater to the people spending twice as much but billions less, or do we cater to the largest player base making us a lot more money.
By the way acting like you don't know casuals make up the vast majority of the playerbase is you admitting you know they make up the vast majority of the playerbase. Nobody that plays an MMO of this size can honestly think they believe the majority of players are pushing leaderboards for trials, or solo arenas. I only PvP in Cyrodil during events and it never takes me long to get in. So there are maybe 100k people doing that at an given time.
Just admit casuals control the game the content is always going to be catered to them. At this point they know they can't balance PvP properly so they aren't going to, they aren't going to suddenly push out a ton more content for something will just complain about that isn't balanced. It makes no sense at all.
The most vocal groups on forums are always the extreme on both sides (so your hardcore players) because any minor change to a system can seriously effect their game play. The casual player will just respond with well that sucks, hate the new jab graphic, but meh whatever I'll deal with and get use to it.
ZoS will never give us exact numbers, like every other company but seriously just use your eyes and look where people are in the world and in your guild.
What you're saying is that it's your belief that it's the casual questers that generate the most revenue for ZOS. This is an assumption on your part, not a known fact. I don't believe you are an employee of ZOS, so you are just assuming you know where the bulk of the revenue is generated. Without being a ZOS employee there is no way to know for sure. As you say in your post, "ZOS will never give us exact numbers".
Hardcore endgame grind folks are not keeping the lights on. I don't care how much you wanna pretend that isn't the case.
Edited by ProudMary on January 1, 2023 12:07PM3 -
colossalvoids✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭NoDMuehlhausen wrote: »DMuehlhausen wrote: »DMuehlhausen wrote: »What do you mean if? The game went full casual with 1T after a year of it being out essentially. They cater towards the casual player just as every game essentially does since those are the players that make them money.
I've seen many posts of yours that claim it's the casual quest player that makes so much money for ZOS, but that makes no sense to me. Wouldn't it be the hardcore, daily player that wants the latest/greatest everything that spends the most money on the game? What makes you so sure it's the casual quest player that makes the most money for ZOS?
By far the people that spend the most money on the game are the casual players. They / we make up around 90% of the playerbase probably (that's about the same as every other MMO). We are the parents really that no longer have 10 hours to play and then 5 hours to raid. We also have disposable income to buy crowns on a monthly basis. I pay the annual sub so 149$ I believe. Then every month I spend 39.99$ for the 5500 crown pack. then if they go on sale I'll spend another 100$ for the 21k crowns. So annually they make at min 1000$/year just from me. I'll drop more if there is a house they put up or something and I don't have the crowns to buy it.
Your average pvper and end game pve player aren't dropping literally thousands a year for housing, or furnishing packs. Obviously there are exceptions to every rule, but normally this is the case. So the casual players are the ones that are dumping millions a year into the game. That is what keeps it running.chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »DMuehlhausen wrote: »What do you mean if? The game went full casual with 1T after a year of it being out essentially. They cater towards the casual player just as every game essentially does since those are the players that make them money.
I've seen many posts of yours that claim it's the casual quest player that makes so much money for ZOS, but that makes no sense to me. Wouldn't it be the hardcore, daily player that wants the latest/greatest everything that spends the most money on the game? What makes you so sure it's the casual quest player that makes the most money for ZOS?
The number of hardcore daily players simply isn't that high they are just ridiculously over-represented on forums and social media.
Many of the hardcore daily players care less about cosmetic items than the casual players.
Many of the hardcore daily players also have easier access to obtain many items without buying crowns.
By far the people that spend the most money on the game are the casual players. They / we make up around 90% of the playerbase probably (that's about the same as every other MMO). We are the parents really that no longer have 10 hours to play and then 5 hours to raid. We also have disposable income to buy crowns on a monthly basis. I pay the annual sub so 149$ I believe. Then every month I spend 39.99$ for the 5500 crown pack. then if they go on sale I'll spend another 100$ for the 21k crowns. So annually they make at min 1000$/year just from me. I'll drop more if there is a house they put up or something and I don't have the crowns to buy it.
Your average pvper and end game pve player aren't dropping literally thousands a year for housing, or furnishing packs. Obviously there are exceptions to every rule, but normally this is the case. So the casual players are the ones that are dumping millions a year into the game. That is what keeps it running.[/q
This 100%
People on the forums want people and zos to believe that none of this is true.
I get this is a FEELING that some believe, but where's the proof? How do you know your feeling about this is factually accurate?
My experience is it's the end game PvE players that spend the most, followed closely by the hard core PvP players. The only people I know that have spent literally thousands of dollars on the game are the end game PvE and PvP players. Certainly they are the players that spend the most per account.
I also believe that it's only an opinion that the end game PvE and PvP community make up a small portion of the player population. I have no way of knowing what proportion of the player population are the end game community though.
I'm asking how someone who's not an employee of ZOS could so confidently state their belief as fact that it's the casual questers that generate the most financial support for the game.
Because I've put time into basically every major MMO since UO and it's the same patterns here.
Just look at any guild you're in that has 500 people. Now be honest, how many are in a prog group? How many are in Cyrodil or Battlegrounds? Maybe 20-30 for the program group? then maybe the same or slightly less for PvP. Even if a "Hardcore Trial Guild" there might be 2 or 3 groups that are consistently running with maybe 2 or 3 people rotating in and out in those groups.
The last I saw they posted saying they had 15 Million accounts. So if you look at roughly the same percentages that's what 12 Million casual players. Then 1.5 Million each on the "hardcore PvP/PvE". Lets assume you're right and the hardcore players spend double what casuals do. Let's say the casuals spend about the same as I do. I'm probably below average, but for argument sake. How much is that among casuals?
Now lets combine both PvP and PvE hardcore players they spend double so roughly 2,000 a year how much is that?
Now you're a ZoS excutive and you're ask yourself how do we keep the game alive and making money. Do we cater to the people spending twice as much but billions less, or do we cater to the largest player base making us a lot more money.
By the way acting like you don't know casuals make up the vast majority of the playerbase is you admitting you know they make up the vast majority of the playerbase. Nobody that plays an MMO of this size can honestly think they believe the majority of players are pushing leaderboards for trials, or solo arenas. I only PvP in Cyrodil during events and it never takes me long to get in. So there are maybe 100k people doing that at an given time.
Just admit casuals control the game the content is always going to be catered to them. At this point they know they can't balance PvP properly so they aren't going to, they aren't going to suddenly push out a ton more content for something will just complain about that isn't balanced. It makes no sense at all.
The most vocal groups on forums are always the extreme on both sides (so your hardcore players) because any minor change to a system can seriously effect their game play. The casual player will just respond with well that sucks, hate the new jab graphic, but meh whatever I'll deal with and get use to it.
ZoS will never give us exact numbers, like every other company but seriously just use your eyes and look where people are in the world and in your guild.
What you're saying is that it's your belief that it's the casual questers that generate the most revenue for ZOS. This is an assumption on your part, not a known fact. I don't believe you are an employee of ZOS, so you are just assuming you know where the bulk of the revenue is generated. Without being a ZOS employee there is no way to know for sure. As you say in your post, "ZOS will never give us exact numbers".
Hardcore endgame grind folks are not keeping the lights on. I don't care how much you wanna pretend that isn't the case.
It's not about just "keeping the lights on" as we're all doing that to some extent and should be heard clear enough, but the thing that those also are a free promotion plus "teachers" (lacking better word in eng) for new players integrating them into the game by guides, guilds, discords, general zone/instanced help etc. Buggyness of the game is also due to lack of endgame players testing stuff on PTS nowadays, a lot of stuff slipping through just because no one interested or moved on, not because some of feedback isn't heard, some just not existing anymore.
It's all baseless speculations and it's healthier to agree we're all contributing enough to not being shut up constantly.3 -
Syldras✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I want some of those changes, but don't want others.I know that most of the end game PvE and PvP players also sink major bank into housing. So in addition to being around the longest, and paying for an ESO+ sub the longest
What makes you think "casuals" are not around here since the beginning and don't use ESO+? I know several people who don't care for HM PvE or PvP content who have joined ESO within the 1st year or even during beta. I don't think it's possible to make a distinction here.
Random guess: The most reliable customers are probably the serious fans of TES. They're somehow attached to the franchise, will stay as long as there's new lore, and will be more tolerant concerning ESO's flaws than others to whom TES means nothing. No matter if PvPers or PvEers, no matter if "casuals" or "hardcore" players.@Syldras | PC | EU
The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire
Soris Rethandus, a Sleeper not yet awake5 -
DMuehlhausen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭YesSilverBride wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »My experience is it's the end game PvE players that spend the most, followed closely by the hard core PvP players. The only people I know that have spent literally thousands of dollars on the game are the end game PvE and PvP players. Certainly they are the players that spend the most per account.
My friends who are into Housing spend a LOT for Crowns and Crown Store only Houses and Furniture packs etc. I can't imagine what an end game PvE player or hard core PvP player would be spending that would be so much more than these things.
Race change, cosmetics, alliance change, mounts, crown crates, appearance changes, houses just for titles (I've done this for the lady title and so has alot of people in pvp) crown packs to sell (you can make millions of gold). Just because we don't do housing doesn't mean we don't do waste excess cash on things in the crown store like others.
Players who are into housing also buy cosmetics, appearance changes, race changes, mounts, crown crates as well as Houses and Furniture packs.
But my point was that end game PvE and hardcore PvP players are not the biggest purchasers and are not the ones that spend the most per account.
How do you know it's not the end game PvE and hardcore PvP players that spend the most $ per account? If you're not a ZOS employee or married to one who's come home and discussed the matter with you how can you be so confident this statement is factual?
Stop relying on this strawman argument. You know we will never see the numbers and ZoS will never tell us. What do you see in the store that is geared to PvP? Absolutely nothing. What is geared towards End Game PvE? Again absolutely nothing really. The stuff those people might be into like the motifs that pop up you can get by simply playing the game. If they want them most of them are out farming them.
Just stop with this you aren't a ZoS employee.2 -
SeaGtGruff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭.SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »These forums certainly are, now days anyway, dominated by the casual quest player who doesn't engage in any challenging game content. It wasn't always this way however. When ZOS started moving away from supporting the challenging game content, PvP and end game PvE specifically, the majority of those players gave up and have moved away from the game, so you don't see them posting on the forums anymore either. They're gone.
Not all "casual" players are disinterested in challenging content. I consider myself to be more "casual" than not, but I enjoy doing game content that I'm challenged by. I'm just not so wrapped up in it that I'm going to obsess over my build or grind the same content for hours and days on end until I beat it, or get some drop that I was grinding for, etc. To me, "casual" is less about the soecific type of content you're interested in and more about your overall attitude toward playing the game. I'm in it to have fun, not to punish myself.I've fought mudcrabs more fearsome than me!4 -
tonyblack✭✭✭✭✭No
Well, “strawman argument” is still better than completely wrong one. Race change mostly geared towards players who care about min maxing stats, target dummies and other furniture with functionality mostly useful only for end game pve and pvp, same for armory assistant and slots, alliance change is useless for anyone but pvpers, I wouldn’t even go for “convenience” items that imho also geared for more hardcore players. Arguably, the value of eso+ much better for those who heavily engage in combat as dlc dungeons and transmutes limits are hardly an interest for those who take it casual. So yes, store does provide items not only for casuals.DMuehlhausen wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »My experience is it's the end game PvE players that spend the most, followed closely by the hard core PvP players. The only people I know that have spent literally thousands of dollars on the game are the end game PvE and PvP players. Certainly they are the players that spend the most per account.
My friends who are into Housing spend a LOT for Crowns and Crown Store only Houses and Furniture packs etc. I can't imagine what an end game PvE player or hard core PvP player would be spending that would be so much more than these things.
Race change, cosmetics, alliance change, mounts, crown crates, appearance changes, houses just for titles (I've done this for the lady title and so has alot of people in pvp) crown packs to sell (you can make millions of gold). Just because we don't do housing doesn't mean we don't do waste excess cash on things in the crown store like others.
Players who are into housing also buy cosmetics, appearance changes, race changes, mounts, crown crates as well as Houses and Furniture packs.
But my point was that end game PvE and hardcore PvP players are not the biggest purchasers and are not the ones that spend the most per account.
How do you know it's not the end game PvE and hardcore PvP players that spend the most $ per account? If you're not a ZOS employee or married to one who's come home and discussed the matter with you how can you be so confident this statement is factual?
Stop relying on this strawman argument. You know we will never see the numbers and ZoS will never tell us. What do you see in the store that is geared to PvP? Absolutely nothing. What is geared towards End Game PvE? Again absolutely nothing really. The stuff those people might be into like the motifs that pop up you can get by simply playing the game. If they want them most of them are out farming them.
Just stop with this you aren't a ZoS employee.
I would argue that even when it comes to cosmetics most questers i encounter usually ride free mounts and use simple outfits, radiant apexes and glowing weapons more common among dedicated players with rare titles and high pvp ranks rather than those who play 2 hours a week doing only quests.
If i had to guess most of the players are indeed playing casually, but important thing is they do it from dlc drop to another dlc drop as those could be cleared in less than a week. After they clear zone, do main and side quests they’d rather go for other games. Most players aren’t going to spend money on expensive time limited houses with the cost of new AAA game or gamble on crown crates and those who do just as rare as endgamers.3 -
Syldras✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I want some of those changes, but don't want others.SeaGtGruff wrote: »To me, "casual" is less about the soecific type of content you're interested in
I agree. And I go even further: Does emphasizing differences between story-based players or roleplayers (who seem to be labelled "casuals" here) and the HM PvE and PvP crowd ("hardcore" gamers) even make sense in this context? Yes, people do different things. Some PvP, some don't. Some don't do group dungeons at all or only the "normal"/simple ones, others only care for HM or trials. So what?! This might be of interest when discussing specific game mechanics, as people should have sufficient knowledge about a topic when they utter an opinion. But if it's about dedication, honestly, do you think a person who plays TES since Arena, Daggerfall or Morrowind and knows even really obscure lore would be less interested in ESO's quality (and in the end persistence) only because they don't PvP or don't do hard mode runs?
I think everyone here who cares for ESO at least a bit wants the game to have a certain quality. No one wants it to be oversimplified. I have never seen "casual" players asking for vet and HM to be removed. All that's sometimes asked for is an optional extra story mode, which would not affect other modes. If you see difficulty or quality declining, that's not because "casuals" were asking for it. Btw, who should I blame for the decreasing quality in quest design and story dialogues? Or in the "riddles" that now consist of brainlessly rotating a single cube several times until it clicks and the quest progresses (how is that even a riddle)? Should I invent a prejudice about "PvPers that aren't even able to read a lorebook, so they don't do riddles anymore"? Which is of course nonsense. Let alone the fact that there are people who do both - playing story quests and PvPing or trials.
We might not care for the same game systems, but in the end, we're on the same side. I don't care for PvP, but I why would I want quality of PvP to decrease? Same goes for trials (I'm not interested in group content with random people; either I can solo a dungeon or complete it with my partner, or I just skip it). You do yours, have fun, I hope ZOS will listen to your criticism finally and act accordingly. I mean it.@Syldras | PC | EU
The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire
Soris Rethandus, a Sleeper not yet awake4 -
Syldras✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I want some of those changes, but don't want others.So many assumptions...Arguably, the value of eso+ much better for those who heavily engage in combat as dlc dungeons and transmutes limits are hardly an interest for those who take it casual.
Crafting bag? Double bank space? Double furniture limit in housing? Special store prices? I know mostly "casuals" and actually not a single one of them does NOT have ESO+.I would argue that even when it comes to cosmetics most questers i encounter usually ride free mounts and use simple outfits
How do you know the person is only "a quester" and doesn't do other content too?players with rare titles and high pvp ranks rather than those who play 2 hours a week doing only quests
You think players who don't PvP and don't do trials log in only 2 hours a week? What makes you think so?If i had to guess most of the players are indeed playing casually, but important thing is they do it from dlc drop to another dlc drop as those could be cleared in less than a week. After they clear zone, do main and side quests they’d rather go for other games.
Quite possible that most people are like that. But that doesn't mean that that not doing "endgame" content automatically means lack of engagement.
@Syldras | PC | EU
The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire
Soris Rethandus, a Sleeper not yet awake2 -
fall0athboy✭✭✭✭YesI don't exactly see how trial finder is a status indicator for whether or not the game is "casual".0 -
tonyblack✭✭✭✭✭NoSo many assumptions...Arguably, the value of eso+ much better for those who heavily engage in combat as dlc dungeons and transmutes limits are hardly an interest for those who take it casual.
Crafting bag? Double bank space? Double furniture limit in housing? Special store prices? I know mostly "casuals" and actually not a single one of them does NOT have ESO+.I would argue that even when it comes to cosmetics most questers i encounter usually ride free mounts and use simple outfits
How do you know the person is only "a quester" and doesn't do other content too?players with rare titles and high pvp ranks rather than those who play 2 hours a week doing only quests
You think players who don't PvP and don't do trials log in only 2 hours a week? What makes you think so?If i had to guess most of the players are indeed playing casually, but important thing is they do it from dlc drop to another dlc drop as those could be cleared in less than a week. After they clear zone, do main and side quests they’d rather go for other games.
Quite possible that most people are like that. But that doesn't mean that that not doing "endgame" content automatically means lack of engagement.
Those 2 extra features I mentioned benefits more hardcore crowd, but I didn’t say other ones are useless. It’s just i see it as less reasons to sub in general and especially for those who try to avoid challenge as much as possible while getting the rewards for random dungeons.
Obvious signs of quester: easy to get titles (for example, savior of x zone, magnanimous, etc), low pvp rank, no food and weird hp value, slow to kill easy enemies, usually low cp as well, equally unoptimized and underleveled companion. It’s of course just my assumptions and i’m not saying i 100% never do mistakes, but in most cases my assumptions correct as I encountered thousands different players in both pvp and pve to quickly recognize who am I dealing with.
What do they log on to do then? I play casually a couple of other games as well as jump on hype trains for next hot thing. For me, i see adds that new content dropped, buy it if necessary (preferably waiting for sales though), update/(-re)install the game, complete said content in a matter of days, forget about it until anything new. I’m not going to heavy engage in repeatable content, read patch notes on combat changes or waste money on something expensive and meaningless. So i take the argument that casual players actively playing ESO outside of new releases or spending more money with the grain of salt as the longevity of new content is rather short if you ignore competitive side.4 -
Syldras✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I want some of those changes, but don't want others.Those 2 extra features I mentioned benefits more hardcore crowd, but I didn’t say other ones are useless. It’s just i see it as less reasons to sub in general
How does it have any relevance if two things aren't of interest (DLC Dungeons and transmute limits) while 4 or 5 others are? Most would subscribe for crafting bag and extra bank space alone (and the housing crowd for higher furniture limits).Obvious signs of quester: easy to get titles (for example, savior of x zone, magnanimous, etc)
I use a title according to the persona I play, because I see no need to brag, especially not in a game. Other people I know PvP but don't use any title at all because they don't see a reason to do so.What do they log on to do then?
I assume something along the line of daily crafting writs, master crafting, collecting surveys and treasures, daily endeavors, daily zone quests, mats farming, card game, searching for antiquity leads, scrying and excavations, reading lore books, furniture crafting and housing, trading, solo arenas, roleplaying with friends, updating their outfits, treasure/trove/safebox hunting, thievery, dark brotherhood contracts, museums collections, achievement completion, levelling their companion, fishing, or even just walking around, enjoying landscape and music and taking screenshots. And I've probably forgotten a few more things. Might mean nothing to you, but for other people this is worth their money.@Syldras | PC | EU
The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire
Soris Rethandus, a Sleeper not yet awake3 -
tonyblack✭✭✭✭✭NoThose 2 extra features I mentioned benefits more hardcore crowd, but I didn’t say other ones are useless. It’s just i see it as less reasons to sub in general
How does it have any relevance if two things aren't of interest (DLC Dungeons and transmute limits) while 4 or 5 others are? Most would subscribe for crafting bag and extra bank space alone (and the housing crowd for higher furniture limits).
The value of sub is a combination of different benefits and when they stop being impactful the player logically should drop it. Not everyone needs a craft bag or housing limit or eso+ deals. Frankly, if i was a player who “mostly here for the story”, I wouldn’t sub at all as most of those benefits are rather meaningless for those who play casually and don’t engage with endgame or housing.I use a title according to the persona I play, because I see no need to brag, especially not in a game. Other people I know PvP but don't use any title at all because they don't see a reason to do so.
Titles alone don’t mean much, true, that’s why I listed a combination of particular qualities. I'm not sure what you wanted to prove there while omitting all other things I mentioned.I assume something along the line of daily crafting writs, master crafting, collecting surveys and treasures, daily endeavors, daily zone quests, mats farming, card game, searching for antiquity leads, scrying and excavations, reading lore books, furniture crafting and housing, trading, solo arenas, roleplaying with friends, updating their outfits, treasure/trove/safebox hunting, thievery, dark brotherhood contracts, museums collections, achievement completion, levelling their companion, fishing, or even just walking around, enjoying landscape and music and taking screenshots. And I've probably forgotten a few more things. Might mean nothing to you, but for other people this is worth their money.
Most of the things you mentioned are rather grindy (i.e. boring) or completely optional stuff you personally seem to enjoy, i doubt that “unseen majority” heavily engage in most of them throughout the year, at least not at the level to make it daily routine and if they are then they not really a part of that “majority” certain people try to shove in the face to prove a point how casual ESO is. Do people really enjoy crafting writs and not doing it out of necessity? How many suggestions there on forums for allowing hirelings/companions collect surveys instead? How many complaints about antiquities grinding on both forums and in game? Or tedious companion leveling? Trading in this game far from casual, requiring knowledge about what sells, what addons to use, how to price, which trading spots are good and which are bad, how to search stuff and so on. And I won’t even start on fishing as i know more people who hate it than love it.3 -
MorganaBlue✭✭✭NoNO
because I don't RP, and not interested in point and click brainless casual gameplay.4 -
Casdha✭✭✭✭✭
✭I want some of those changes, but don't want others.There is absolutely no reason to change Vet modes with all of these other changes.
If anything there should just be another "Easy" mode added to make them easier to do Solo.
Heck if that were done, I'd make the rest of the modes Harder to do. I'd make them true group dungeons, not solo with the right build dungeons.Proud member of the Psijic Order - The first wave - The 0.016%0 -
ProudMary✭✭✭✭✭
✭NoDMuehlhausen wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »My experience is it's the end game PvE players that spend the most, followed closely by the hard core PvP players. The only people I know that have spent literally thousands of dollars on the game are the end game PvE and PvP players. Certainly they are the players that spend the most per account.
My friends who are into Housing spend a LOT for Crowns and Crown Store only Houses and Furniture packs etc. I can't imagine what an end game PvE player or hard core PvP player would be spending that would be so much more than these things.
Race change, cosmetics, alliance change, mounts, crown crates, appearance changes, houses just for titles (I've done this for the lady title and so has alot of people in pvp) crown packs to sell (you can make millions of gold). Just because we don't do housing doesn't mean we don't do waste excess cash on things in the crown store like others.
Players who are into housing also buy cosmetics, appearance changes, race changes, mounts, crown crates as well as Houses and Furniture packs.
But my point was that end game PvE and hardcore PvP players are not the biggest purchasers and are not the ones that spend the most per account.
How do you know it's not the end game PvE and hardcore PvP players that spend the most $ per account? If you're not a ZOS employee or married to one who's come home and discussed the matter with you how can you be so confident this statement is factual?
Stop relying on this strawman argument. You know we will never see the numbers and ZoS will never tell us. What do you see in the store that is geared to PvP? Absolutely nothing. What is geared towards End Game PvE? Again absolutely nothing really. The stuff those people might be into like the motifs that pop up you can get by simply playing the game. If they want them most of them are out farming them.
Just stop with this you aren't a ZoS employee.
I'm not making a straw man argument. (please refer to the definition of what a straw man argument is) I'm making a case based upon being in game since shortly after beta and reasonable assumptions and years of experience. It stands to reason that the players that have subbed since inception and spend the most time in game are the whales for ESO. These are the end game PvE and PvP players. These players also tend to be the players that have spent the most on housing and crown crates. It is a reasonable hypothesis to believe that these are the whales for ESO as opposed to the casual player that buys a few crates here and there.
It's totally legitimate to point out that someone who's not working at ZOS and seeing the numbers first hand is just making a guess at what those numbers are, but a belief based upon what little evidence there is to work with is more likely to be accurate. Your certainty that your play style and spending habits is the bread and butter for ZOS lacks foundation.
Edited by ProudMary on January 2, 2023 4:20PM4 -
Syldras✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I want some of those changes, but don't want others.Not everyone needs a craft bag or housing limit or eso+ deals. Frankly, if i was a player who “mostly here for the story”, I wouldn’t sub at all as most of those benefits are rather meaningless for those who play casually and don’t engage with endgame or housing. (...) Most of the things you mentioned are rather grindy (i.e. boring) or completely optional stuff
In the end it all boils down to you thinking YOU wouldn't need this and YOU would find it boring. Which is fine, but people like different things and it's a fact that there are many "casuals" who have ESO+ - there was even a discussion lately whether it was still worth its money and many replied that they would subscribe for the crafting bag alone - , and that there are masses of people who participate in the activities I described, even though YOU find them boring. To be fair, I'll never understand what people like about PvPing, as well as I'll never understand why people play ToT or go fishing. But I know people have different interests and don't expect everyone to feel the same way about all kinds of topics as I do.
And the question wasn't even about what activities people prefer, btw, but you were asking what people DO in this game if they don't PvP or do trials. And I listed you the activities this game offers, which are a lot, without any judgement. Already excluding story content, which is over 40 zones with between 50 and 70 quests each. And then some people also have side characters they also play with. Btw, ZOS decided to give up the Q4-Story-DLC because they find there would already be enough story content and people wouldn't be able to keep pace.
Fact is: Many "casuals" do have ESO+. Many log in more than just 2 hours a week. You might not believe it, but it's the way it is.@Syldras | PC | EU
The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire
Soris Rethandus, a Sleeper not yet awake1
