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Important Needed Economy Changes for ESO!
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VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »FlopsyPrince wrote: »Plan ahead? How does that help finding gear for a character?
Well you don't do this for a start.SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »A central auction house would blow up the economy and make it far worse than it already is in my opinion. The cost of everything would explode and the people who play ESO as kind of a practice for buying/selling stocks in the real world would end up with WAY too much influence. Better to make those players have to spend hours searching each vendor spread out all over the realm.
What about when you're money is low, but you gotta buy a set of gear from the traders, yet you're on a budget, also people are waiting on you so you guys can get going back to the content you were doing with your team. It's extremely redundant to have to search from trader to trader to find the best deals and to see if that item you can afford is still located as it's last seen location... It's a major hindrance to the player.
(Bolded for emphasis)
If I am going to do harder content, and I am not sure about my gear I ask ahead, and start planning.
I look up builds ("Hack the Minotaur" is a great resource) and start figuring things out. And if I need crafted gear, I make it, BEFORE it becomes an issue. I do the best I can and with what resources I have available. And if I can't do it, I ask for help, again before it becomes an issue. You know, plan ahead...
I'm not talking about not knowing the gear you need, I always know what gear I need for whatever content. But when it comes up to do something and it suddenly comes up as something that's needed that you don't have, you got to acquire it and everyone has to wait on you. So at that point, then you start doing your "planning" that you keep talking about, but it doesn't change the fact that it was just sprung on you, and you gotta go get the gear right now while everyone's waiting on you...
Whether it's PvE or PvP, you're in a group, your group is min-maxing and you have to accommodate. You're already in the middle of doing content with them and you gotta go grab the suggested gear on the fly, the games system should allow you to find the gear and at the best deals immediately without having to waste time checking from trader to trader to find what you're looking for at a good deal because your money is already low.
You're completely disregarding that, like every player isn't batman that can prep for everything imaginable given the prep time. Even so that still requires a whole lot of prep time. Lol content changes, people take breaks from the game, and they could come back and be tossed right into the mix where they didn't have planning prep time. They have to make due with what the tools at hand. But this current trader system is a major hindrance...
No one should ever be waiting on you to get geared up.
Understand?
You are doing min-max type content, and you are preparing for it while doing it? That is just stunning.
What scenario are you describing? That your off playing ToT then suddenly your in a group of strangers doing vKA hard mode, they need you to heal and your a stam dps?
Or are you in mismatched greens and blues?
I mean if that is not the scenario then what are you doing exactly?
• I have a stam dps character as my main. I have a trial build for that character. They have food/potions ready to go. I actually have enough of those to share if needs be.
• I have a stam tank character, that one is appropriately trial geared. Again with food/potions.
• I have a magika dps character. Guess what? While they have never been in a trial, they should be fine.
• I don’t pvp that often in a group, but if I did I would have appropriate gear before doing it. If I am playing solo, then I just suffer through it.
• If they ask me to heal, I tell them I don’t have a geared healer. If in the future they do need me to heal I will work on it for next time. (This scenario has never come up luckily.)
(Btw I am NOT in a regular trial group, I am an alternate for a friends trial group.)
This is not being Batman. This is acknowledging that the particular content exists, I am willing to do it, and I am prepared for it.
And if you are truly doing cutting edge min/max content, a guild vendor will not save you. Most of the really great gear comes from trials, mythics, and dungeons. And that stuff is bound to the people doing it. The only gear you can possibly need from a guild vendor is overland gear sets that you don’t want to farm for yourself. (Crafted sets can be crafted, no need to buy.) I can’t think of a dungeon/trial set that drops that can be resold. I don’t think they exist.
Lastly, if a trial is kicking us around and we are not making headway, we step out, reset it, lower the difficulty and go back in.
Who stands around waiting for someone to gear themselves?
Once again, trials was an example as was pvpy. I definitely see it happen more often in PvP. Yes trial gear is definitely needed in most trials, dungeon gear, mythic gear, yes of course. Not always but most of the time yes. Trials gear is hardly ever used in PvP but some is. Crafted gear is often used in PvP, overland gear that can be bought is used in PvP as well, and so is mythic gear... It's all situational but it happens.
I've been a guild raid healer in Cyrodiil. In my experience, this business of waiting for players to buy recommended gear before we could ride out didn't happen. Once we were in Cyrodiil for raid night, we didn't leave until we were done because of the queues.
We ran specific builds. We helped our guildies buy
or farm for that gear. If the guild leaders needed someone to swap to different gear mid-raid, it was organized ahead of time so they had the gear on them to swap. If we needed a different character it was done at the start of raid before someone waited through the queues. If you found yourself unexpectedly short, someone else would lend you potions or poisons or some such (I remember sending extra mats to someone before raid so they could quick craft some), but we knew to come prepared and with our game faces on, so that was rare.
Maybe your PVP experience is different than mine, but in my guild, we planned ahead or rolled out with what we had.
I mean, I understand that some players find running to different traders annoying. Annoyance at inconvenience is a valid opinion. But there's a saying that I think neatly illustrates the folly of blaming the guild trader system for making other players wait on you while you shop: "Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part."
It can be annoying without hyperbole.
It's okay if it hasn't happened in your time of play, but you're disregarding that it happens. When I came to PC in March and got emperor as a low lvl before I reached CP, I've seen it happen many times during that play with the friends I made during that emperor run. Wasn't running with a guild just friends made during pvp, as people leveled, they left swapped/crafted/bought gear.
I've also seen it back on PlayStation, I have a few friends at CP I know in mind who would often do it. Just because your experience was different doesn't mean you can disregard another's experience. Lol
I guess I can see it being a reasonable complaint in the low level Cyrodiil campaign, since players would be constantly trading in gear sets as they level up. New players can't exactly pre-craft leveled gesr like I do for leveling in BGs. And lower level gear is much less available in the guild traders because there's just less of it and less demand. Thanks for explaining where you've seen it!
I'm less certain about the CP 160 friends. I mean, I believe they did it. I just think that if my friends frequently expected me to wait around because they didn't buy their gear ahead of time, I'd be more annoyed with them, not the guild traders. It's not like anyone at CP 160 should suddenly be surprised that it takes time to buy stuff from guild traders, after all.2 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Zodiarkslayer wrote: »
I spoke on how bidding wouldn't change... I only talked about improving the current system, not dismantling it. How you obtain a guild trader isn't what I want to change, the features that guild traders provide is what I want updated. We need more features. I've explained this. Gotta read the whole post.
Oh c'mon. You cannot be so naive!
Noone would be bidding on something that isn't special, but just like everything else. No trade guild would be bidding serious money on a spot.
A global market board is going to erase the need to bid beyond a certain very low level. The whole psychology of auctioning would be shattered.
There will be 50% to 80% less gold siphoned out of the system (my estimation).
I think I understand your issue here... You keep bringing up bidding, and an auction house. But there's no form of bidding that you would do... You see an item, you purchase as you do now, you wouldn't have to bid for it, [snip]
Where's your basis on that percentage of less gold being siphoned out of the game?
Guild trader spots are won through bidding. The better the location, the higher the bid. The guild trader system removes a ton of gold from the economy every week through this system. That is the bidding being described.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on December 31, 2022 6:38PM7 -
King_Jude✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Going to check out every trader in the game for an item that may or may not be present at any trader *at all* is "fine" apparently.
There are very few items rare enough that they may not exist anywhere in the game. And those items usually cost way more money than a casual players can afford. Someone who can buy something like the Sixth House Banner is already making money in this game just fine. If you want a regular rare item, you can usually find it at one of three hubs. Even on PS4 I was looking at like 15 minutes of time, and the load screens on last gen consoles are some of the worst of the worst. I've had to actually hunt for an item that was both rare and cheap really hard only a couple of times in the multiple years I've played this game.
I won't deny a central hub would make it easier to find. But, upending an entire economy over a very rare occurrence isn't a compelling argument to me personally.Having to join a guild to sell is "fine", apparently. Except to the very large number of people who plain *do not want* to join a guild, no it isn't.
So, sell in zone chat. Plenty of people make money doing that
How can you call it a rare occurrence if it's constant on console?
Because it's not a constant on console. The majority of what players buy, the items that actually move and don't need to be relisted, are available at the capital city traders. And frankly, they are generally easier to find at those traders too.
From a console gamer and a PC gamer, I can strongly attest to the notion that it's definitely an issue on console from experience, and just about every player I meet on console complaining about the same thing...
Yes. Many people on console have experienced it. It doesn't mean they experienced it regularly. I have a capital city traders every week. One reason that people have trouble finding certain cheap but rare items is because they don't move and they are cheap, so people don't bother to sell them. Their is a very low demand for them. I've had such items fail to sale at reasonable prices at some of the most high traffic traders in the game. Many players have experienced that issue. But they experience it rarely.
I don't feel like there's any supply and demand issue in elder scrolls online. That has never been an issue in elder scrolls online. The issue is that people can't find them. Also the issue is all of the extra work going into finding them.
If they can't find them, it is either a supply or demand issue. Not an issue with the guild traders. If the item was worth selling on traders and it was reasonable to get, it would be in the capital city traders.
Is the supplies out there but there's hundreds of guiltrators to look through It's not a supply issue if it's out there.
Again. It can be a supply or demand issue. Like for example, I have sold cheap and rare motifs that nobody wanted and stayed listed at a cap city traders for over a month. I haven't had to relist them twice. But a couple of months before someone wants them means that the demand isn't there. It wasn't hard to get, so if the money was there it would be on traders. The supply is low because the demand is low for that item.
Upending a healthy economy because on rare occasion someone has to shop around does not make sense.
It was listed at a capital city traders. This is by far the most shopped traders in the game. You don't have to go through hundreds of traders to know that the capital city traders should be your first stop. Most players figure that out quickly and go to them first. That's why they command such a high bidding price. Anyone searching for that item, they'd have found the item in minutes.
Here me out... Has it ever occurred to you that those rare motifs that were never purchased because players didn't happen to come across your specific product because they didn't come to your specific guild trader?
Listen to this... That's like going to the flea market and each individual flea market vendor would be a guild trader. On each of these vendors they don't have their wares out on the table for you to see. Each vendor only has a list of paper with pages that you can look through. You don't know what's going to be on any of these pages so you just flipping through their pages looking through it. Then on top of that each vendor has their own list of goods where some might have some of the same products but you don't know which one has what And there's so much products on that list of paper that you can look through. Also each one is selling their products at whatever price they feel That doesn't match their fellow vendors prices. It's the same concept!
I don't understand how you're not even seeing that.0 -
heaven13✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Zodiarkslayer wrote: »
I spoke on how bidding wouldn't change... I only talked about improving the current system, not dismantling it. How you obtain a guild trader isn't what I want to change, the features that guild traders provide is what I want updated. We need more features. I've explained this. Gotta read the whole post.
Oh c'mon. You cannot be so naive!
Noone would be bidding on something that isn't special, but just like everything else. No trade guild would be bidding serious money on a spot.
A global market board is going to erase the need to bid beyond a certain very low level. The whole psychology of auctioning would be shattered.
There will be 50% to 80% less gold siphoned out of the system (my estimation).
I think I understand your issue here... You keep bringing up bidding, and an auction house. But there's no form of bidding that you would do... You see an item, you purchase as you do now, you wouldn't have to bid for it, [snip]
Where's your basis on that percentage of less gold being siphoned out of the game?
People mentioning bidding are talking about the guild traders themselves, not the items they sell. Guilds have to bid on a trader location. The highest bid wins the spot for the week.
If trader locations still exist but only for pure RP value (which is what your system would be; every stall would show all the listings in the entire game, therefore every stall is just as convenient as the next, just depends on where you happen to be), no spot would be more coveted than the next because location would no longer matter. player123 can buy a stack of columbine in Wayrest from gamer456 or the same stack of columbine from the same player if they visit a stall in Marbruk. To that end, the current gold being siphoned out of the economy by guilds bidding on locations would drastically decrease because location would not matter and guilds that are paying millions of gold per week for prime capitol locations would no longer need to spend near as much because they could just as easily sell their items in a thieves den location because their listing will still show to people shopping in capitol cities. That's what people mean when they discuss the cons of your system and how it affects bidding.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on December 31, 2022 6:39PMPC/NAMountain God | Leave No Bone Unbroken | Apex Predator | Pure Lunacy | Depths Defier | No Rest for the Wicked | In Defiance of DeathMeet my characters :
Defanged the Devourer | Nature's Wrath | Relentless Raider | True Genius | Bane of Thorns | Subterranean Smasher | Ardent Bibliophile
vAA HM | vHRC HM | vSO HM | vDSA | vMoL HM | vHoF HM | vAS+2 | vCR+2 | vBRP | vSS HM | vKA | vRGIT DOESN'T MATTER BECAUSE THEY'RE ALL THE SAME NOW, THANKS ZOS4 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭" But when it comes up to do something and it suddenly comes up as something that's needed that you don't have, you got to acquire it and everyone has to wait on you. "
You keep providing these types of scenarios then when called out on them say well it is just one thing I decided to say. If a group PvP, dungeon, trial or otherwise suddenly decides a member needs to go acquire different gear that is a group problem not a trader problem.
You've been saying you don't want to change how bidding works but what you propose would change how bidding works. You keep saying you don't want to overhaul or make obsolete the current system but what you are proposing would do exactly that.
You mention prices going down. True they would, for common items. Rare items would increase in price and rarity. New players would have a harder time making gold within the market because items they tend to sell would be all but worthless. The more rare items players might desire would become out of reach by a much greater part of the player population.
And your idea wrecks the reason many participate in the economy and have fun doing so. If you don't have to go to a trader to see prices of items at that trader then you are scrapping the entire guild trader system. People will jump in and say what about TTC. Tamriel Trade Center isn't an accurate data base. Sometimes you can waste more time trying to track down listings on TTC than if you just hit random traders looking for what you want.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."6 -
King_Jude✭✭✭Zodiarkslayer wrote: »
I spoke on how bidding wouldn't change... I only talked about improving the current system, not dismantling it. How you obtain a guild trader isn't what I want to change, the features that guild traders provide is what I want updated. We need more features. I've explained this. Gotta read the whole post.
Oh c'mon. You cannot be so naive!
Noone would be bidding on something that isn't special, but just like everything else. No trade guild would be bidding serious money on a spot.
A global market board is going to erase the need to bid beyond a certain very low level. The whole psychology of auctioning would be shattered.
There will be 50% to 80% less gold siphoned out of the system (my estimation).
I think I understand your issue here... You keep bringing up bidding, and an auction house. But there's no form of bidding that you would do... You see an item, you purchase as you do now, you wouldn't have to bid for it, [snip]
Where's your basis on that percentage of less gold being siphoned out of the game?
People mentioning bidding are talking about the guild traders themselves, not the items they sell. Guilds have to bid on a trader location. The highest bid wins the spot for the week.
If trader locations still exist but only for pure RP value (which is what your system would be; every stall would show all the listings in the entire game, therefore every stall is just as convenient as the next, just depends on where you happen to be), no spot would be more coveted than the next because location would no longer matter. player123 can buy a stack of columbine in Wayrest from gamer456 or the same stack of columbine from the same player if they visit a stall in Marbruk. To that end, the current gold being siphoned out of the economy by guilds bidding on locations would drastically decrease because location would not matter and guilds that are paying millions of gold per week for prime capitol locations would no longer need to spend near as much because they could just as easily sell their items in a thieves den location because their listing will still show to people shopping in capitol cities. That's what people mean when they discuss the cons of your system and how it affects bidding.
I've addressed this already, but let me ask you a couple questions directly so you can understand the answers.
Currently you would agree that bidding for a guild trader in a refuge/thieves den is significantly cheaper than a capitol city trader right now right?
This would also mean that if players could go to one location and see every item listed from all traders, then the value of all the trash location traders become a higher value right?
That would mean guilds who bid low for trash locations would have to bid higher overall just to obtain any location right?
There's 100s of traders, so if all the prices of the 100s of traders were to go up because all of them have equal value, that means more gold is being sinked rather than just the capital city locations right?
So yes high end trade guilds would spend less money, but now every guild in the game that can acquire a guild trader has to spend more money... So if you're worried about the gold sink being an issue, it's actually improved the gold sink by making it a larger amount of gold being taken out of the game...
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on December 31, 2022 6:40PM0 -
King_Jude✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »FlopsyPrince wrote: »Plan ahead? How does that help finding gear for a character?
Well you don't do this for a start.SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »A central auction house would blow up the economy and make it far worse than it already is in my opinion. The cost of everything would explode and the people who play ESO as kind of a practice for buying/selling stocks in the real world would end up with WAY too much influence. Better to make those players have to spend hours searching each vendor spread out all over the realm.
What about when you're money is low, but you gotta buy a set of gear from the traders, yet you're on a budget, also people are waiting on you so you guys can get going back to the content you were doing with your team. It's extremely redundant to have to search from trader to trader to find the best deals and to see if that item you can afford is still located as it's last seen location... It's a major hindrance to the player.
(Bolded for emphasis)
If I am going to do harder content, and I am not sure about my gear I ask ahead, and start planning.
I look up builds ("Hack the Minotaur" is a great resource) and start figuring things out. And if I need crafted gear, I make it, BEFORE it becomes an issue. I do the best I can and with what resources I have available. And if I can't do it, I ask for help, again before it becomes an issue. You know, plan ahead...
I'm not talking about not knowing the gear you need, I always know what gear I need for whatever content. But when it comes up to do something and it suddenly comes up as something that's needed that you don't have, you got to acquire it and everyone has to wait on you. So at that point, then you start doing your "planning" that you keep talking about, but it doesn't change the fact that it was just sprung on you, and you gotta go get the gear right now while everyone's waiting on you...
Whether it's PvE or PvP, you're in a group, your group is min-maxing and you have to accommodate. You're already in the middle of doing content with them and you gotta go grab the suggested gear on the fly, the games system should allow you to find the gear and at the best deals immediately without having to waste time checking from trader to trader to find what you're looking for at a good deal because your money is already low.
You're completely disregarding that, like every player isn't batman that can prep for everything imaginable given the prep time. Even so that still requires a whole lot of prep time. Lol content changes, people take breaks from the game, and they could come back and be tossed right into the mix where they didn't have planning prep time. They have to make due with what the tools at hand. But this current trader system is a major hindrance...
No one should ever be waiting on you to get geared up.
Understand?
You are doing min-max type content, and you are preparing for it while doing it? That is just stunning.
What scenario are you describing? That your off playing ToT then suddenly your in a group of strangers doing vKA hard mode, they need you to heal and your a stam dps?
Or are you in mismatched greens and blues?
I mean if that is not the scenario then what are you doing exactly?
• I have a stam dps character as my main. I have a trial build for that character. They have food/potions ready to go. I actually have enough of those to share if needs be.
• I have a stam tank character, that one is appropriately trial geared. Again with food/potions.
• I have a magika dps character. Guess what? While they have never been in a trial, they should be fine.
• I don’t pvp that often in a group, but if I did I would have appropriate gear before doing it. If I am playing solo, then I just suffer through it.
• If they ask me to heal, I tell them I don’t have a geared healer. If in the future they do need me to heal I will work on it for next time. (This scenario has never come up luckily.)
(Btw I am NOT in a regular trial group, I am an alternate for a friends trial group.)
This is not being Batman. This is acknowledging that the particular content exists, I am willing to do it, and I am prepared for it.
And if you are truly doing cutting edge min/max content, a guild vendor will not save you. Most of the really great gear comes from trials, mythics, and dungeons. And that stuff is bound to the people doing it. The only gear you can possibly need from a guild vendor is overland gear sets that you don’t want to farm for yourself. (Crafted sets can be crafted, no need to buy.) I can’t think of a dungeon/trial set that drops that can be resold. I don’t think they exist.
Lastly, if a trial is kicking us around and we are not making headway, we step out, reset it, lower the difficulty and go back in.
Who stands around waiting for someone to gear themselves?
Once again, trials was an example as was pvpy. I definitely see it happen more often in PvP. Yes trial gear is definitely needed in most trials, dungeon gear, mythic gear, yes of course. Not always but most of the time yes. Trials gear is hardly ever used in PvP but some is. Crafted gear is often used in PvP, overland gear that can be bought is used in PvP as well, and so is mythic gear... It's all situational but it happens.
I've been a guild raid healer in Cyrodiil. In my experience, this business of waiting for players to buy recommended gear before we could ride out didn't happen. Once we were in Cyrodiil for raid night, we didn't leave until we were done because of the queues.
We ran specific builds. We helped our guildies buy
or farm for that gear. If the guild leaders needed someone to swap to different gear mid-raid, it was organized ahead of time so they had the gear on them to swap. If we needed a different character it was done at the start of raid before someone waited through the queues. If you found yourself unexpectedly short, someone else would lend you potions or poisons or some such (I remember sending extra mats to someone before raid so they could quick craft some), but we knew to come prepared and with our game faces on, so that was rare.
Maybe your PVP experience is different than mine, but in my guild, we planned ahead or rolled out with what we had.
I mean, I understand that some players find running to different traders annoying. Annoyance at inconvenience is a valid opinion. But there's a saying that I think neatly illustrates the folly of blaming the guild trader system for making other players wait on you while you shop: "Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part."
It can be annoying without hyperbole.
It's okay if it hasn't happened in your time of play, but you're disregarding that it happens. When I came to PC in March and got emperor as a low lvl before I reached CP, I've seen it happen many times during that play with the friends I made during that emperor run. Wasn't running with a guild just friends made during pvp, as people leveled, they left swapped/crafted/bought gear.
I've also seen it back on PlayStation, I have a few friends at CP I know in mind who would often do it. Just because your experience was different doesn't mean you can disregard another's experience. Lol
I guess I can see it being a reasonable complaint in the low level Cyrodiil campaign, since players would be constantly trading in gear sets as they level up. New players can't exactly pre-craft leveled gesr like I do for leveling in BGs. And lower level gear is much less available in the guild traders because there's just less of it and less demand. Thanks for explaining where you've seen it!
I'm less certain about the CP 160 friends. I mean, I believe they did it. I just think that if my friends frequently expected me to wait around because they didn't buy their gear ahead of time, I'd be more annoyed with them, not the guild traders. It's not like anyone at CP 160 should suddenly be surprised that it takes time to buy stuff from guild traders, after all.
Thank you for understanding that viewpoint. Also it's not really about being annoyed with the player. It's more so an example of a factor that happens. It's not the only factor however it's one of them. I was asked to elaborate on that factor or some of the factors and I've done so. That's all that is.0 -
I_killed_Vivec✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Zodiarkslayer wrote: »
I spoke on how bidding wouldn't change... I only talked about improving the current system, not dismantling it. How you obtain a guild trader isn't what I want to change, the features that guild traders provide is what I want updated. We need more features. I've explained this. Gotta read the whole post.
Oh c'mon. You cannot be so naive!
Noone would be bidding on something that isn't special, but just like everything else. No trade guild would be bidding serious money on a spot.
A global market board is going to erase the need to bid beyond a certain very low level. The whole psychology of auctioning would be shattered.
There will be 50% to 80% less gold siphoned out of the system (my estimation).
I think I understand your issue here... You keep bringing up bidding, and an auction house. But there's no form of bidding that you would do... You see an item, you purchase as you do now, you wouldn't have to bid for it, [snip]
Where's your basis on that percentage of less gold being siphoned out of the game?
People mentioning bidding are talking about the guild traders themselves, not the items they sell. Guilds have to bid on a trader location. The highest bid wins the spot for the week.
If trader locations still exist but only for pure RP value (which is what your system would be; every stall would show all the listings in the entire game, therefore every stall is just as convenient as the next, just depends on where you happen to be), no spot would be more coveted than the next because location would no longer matter. player123 can buy a stack of columbine in Wayrest from gamer456 or the same stack of columbine from the same player if they visit a stall in Marbruk. To that end, the current gold being siphoned out of the economy by guilds bidding on locations would drastically decrease because location would not matter and guilds that are paying millions of gold per week for prime capitol locations would no longer need to spend near as much because they could just as easily sell their items in a thieves den location because their listing will still show to people shopping in capitol cities. That's what people mean when they discuss the cons of your system and how it affects bidding.
I've addressed this already, but let me ask you a couple questions directly so you can understand the answers.
Currently you would agree that bidding for a guild trader in a refuge/thieves den is significantly cheaper than a capitol city trader right now right?
This would also mean that if players could go to one location and see every item listed from all traders, then the value of all the trash location traders become a higher value right?
That would mean guilds who bid low for trash locations would have to bid higher overall just to obtain any location right?
There's 100s of traders, so if all the prices of the 100s of traders were to go up because all of them have equal value, that means more gold is being sinked rather than just the capital city locations right?
So yes high end trade guilds would spend less money, but now every guild in the game that can acquire a guild trader has to spend more money... So if you're worried about the gold sink being an issue, it's actually improved the gold sink by making it a larger amount of gold being taken out of the game...
That isn't how it works - all traders will have equal value, therefore all traders cost the same. But not all traders will go up in price.
Eventually, and I doubt it will take long, all the current traders will have settled on the nominal price for a trader - just enough to make sure you get one, not so much that it would hurt your profits. There will be no niche locations, low cost traders that more casual trading guilds can afford on a regular basis. A trader in an isolated location will cost as much as one in one of the major trading cities. There will be no massive gold sinks because all traders will cost the same - the current popular locations will level down because the big trading guilds that can currently afford them will reduce their spending, confident that they can still outspend the casual guilds who struggle to hold onto any trader.
They would then become cemented in place - it would be incredibly difficult for a new trading guild to make a successful bid, and even if they did they would probably exhaust all their resources and they would not be able to keep it the next week.
It certainly will not help new players (and players with less gold) because they will still need to be members of a successful guild if they wish to trade - just like they do now.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on December 31, 2022 6:41PM2 -
Goldie✭✭✭✭✭From a players perspective the trading system in ESO is awful.
We are forced to spend hours of time visiting various traders in order to find the items we need or want at a decent price.
If you want to Sell ANYTHING you are forced to try and join a Trading Guild, and you are then hassled with dues and requirements and additional fees just to sell items to other players.
If you try to sell through chat, you are likely to get reported for spamming - and / or ignored by other players.
Before anyone replies with "oh but add-ons" - we should not have to reply on 3rd party addons in order to be able to participate in the games economy. Period.
I also anticipate "oh but you dont HAVE to do any of the above", but yes, if you want to participate in ESO's system and sell your items to players at all - the above is a requirement to do so. Selling materials and items to other players requires a Trading guild! (selling to individual players through trading is not a workable solution!)
If a player wanted to try and get their own guild into the trading game - it is literally a full time job trying to raise the gold to be able to participate and compete in the system. This leads to so many more issues down the line.
The thought that not having a central trading system in an MMO would be a good idea is likely a big contributing factor to the overall decline in active or returning players.Edited by Goldie on December 30, 2022 8:37PM"Wood Elves aren't made of wood. Sea Elves aren't made of water. M'aiq still wonders about High Elves" - M'aiq the Liar2 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭"Currently you would agree that bidding for a guild trader in a refuge/thieves den is significantly cheaper than a capitol city trader right now right?"
It means the prime locations become as generic as any other trader. No need to bid high if location doesn't matter. The average price of trading spots would plummet. Sure the low end traders may increase in cost some but all that does is push out the guilds that get occasional traders. The difference in a low traffic trader cost and a high traffic trader cost is a few zeros at the end of the number. Low traffic traders going up some in price will not offset how drastic the cost of prime location traders will fall.
And you still create a situation where you are putting an end to a popular activity in the game. Some actually enjoy the hunt for a bargain. Rare items might be easier to find but they will be priced beyond more players ability to pay. It will be much easier for a player or two to corner the market on specific items.
Also need to address strain on the server. An app that only searched one guild at a time had to be toned down because it was causing server problems with the number of queries it was creating.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."3 -
King_Jude✭✭✭From a players perspective the trading system in ESO is awful.
We are forced to spend hours of time visiting various traders in order to find the items we need or want at a decent price.
If you want to Sell ANYTHING you are forced to try and join a Trading Guild, and you are then hassled with dues and requirements and additional fees just to sell items to other players.
If you try to sell through chat, you are likely to get reported for spamming - and / or ignored by other players.
Before anyone replies with "oh but add-ons" - we should not have to reply on 3rd party addons in order to be able to participate in the games economy. Period.
I also anticipate "oh but you dont HAVE to do any of the above", but yes, if you want to participate in ESO's system and sell your items to players at all - the above is a requirement to do so. Selling materials and items to other players requires a Trading guild! (selling to individual players through trading is not a workable solution!)
If a player wanted to try and get their own guild into the trading game - it is literally a full time job trying to raise the gold to be able to participate and compete in the system. This leads to so many more issues down the line.
The thought that not having a central trading system in an MMO would be a good idea is likely a big contributing factor to the overall decline in active or returning players.
Thank you for being honest and realistic with everyone. I just can't understand how people don't see these issues.0 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Going to check out every trader in the game for an item that may or may not be present at any trader *at all* is "fine" apparently.
There are very few items rare enough that they may not exist anywhere in the game. And those items usually cost way more money than a casual players can afford. Someone who can buy something like the Sixth House Banner is already making money in this game just fine. If you want a regular rare item, you can usually find it at one of three hubs. Even on PS4 I was looking at like 15 minutes of time, and the load screens on last gen consoles are some of the worst of the worst. I've had to actually hunt for an item that was both rare and cheap really hard only a couple of times in the multiple years I've played this game.
I won't deny a central hub would make it easier to find. But, upending an entire economy over a very rare occurrence isn't a compelling argument to me personally.Having to join a guild to sell is "fine", apparently. Except to the very large number of people who plain *do not want* to join a guild, no it isn't.
So, sell in zone chat. Plenty of people make money doing that
How can you call it a rare occurrence if it's constant on console?
Because it's not a constant on console. The majority of what players buy, the items that actually move and don't need to be relisted, are available at the capital city traders. And frankly, they are generally easier to find at those traders too.
From a console gamer and a PC gamer, I can strongly attest to the notion that it's definitely an issue on console from experience, and just about every player I meet on console complaining about the same thing...
Yes. Many people on console have experienced it. It doesn't mean they experienced it regularly. I have a capital city traders every week. One reason that people have trouble finding certain cheap but rare items is because they don't move and they are cheap, so people don't bother to sell them. Their is a very low demand for them. I've had such items fail to sale at reasonable prices at some of the most high traffic traders in the game. Many players have experienced that issue. But they experience it rarely.
I don't feel like there's any supply and demand issue in elder scrolls online. That has never been an issue in elder scrolls online. The issue is that people can't find them. Also the issue is all of the extra work going into finding them.
If they can't find them, it is either a supply or demand issue. Not an issue with the guild traders. If the item was worth selling on traders and it was reasonable to get, it would be in the capital city traders.
Is the supplies out there but there's hundreds of guiltrators to look through It's not a supply issue if it's out there.
Again. It can be a supply or demand issue. Like for example, I have sold cheap and rare motifs that nobody wanted and stayed listed at a cap city traders for over a month. I haven't had to relist them twice. But a couple of months before someone wants them means that the demand isn't there. It wasn't hard to get, so if the money was there it would be on traders. The supply is low because the demand is low for that item.
Upending a healthy economy because on rare occasion someone has to shop around does not make sense.
It was listed at a capital city traders. This is by far the most shopped traders in the game. You don't have to go through hundreds of traders to know that the capital city traders should be your first stop. Most players figure that out quickly and go to them first. That's why they command such a high bidding price. Anyone searching for that item, they'd have found the item in minutes.
Here me out... Has it ever occurred to you that those rare motifs that were never purchased because players didn't happen to come across your specific product because they didn't come to your specific guild trader?
Again. I am at the most popular guild trading spots in the game very nearly every single week. You speak as if I'm talking about in the outlaws refuge of Rivenspire. The stuff isn't selling in places like Stormhaven.
Your scenario of someone going to each and every trader in the game searching for a specific item that may or may not exist on a trader, only works if they are actually, you know, searching for that item. So the pages and pages don't matter. If they are looking for a specific motif, they are going to narrow their search to that motif only. And then hit each trader until they find it. The capital city traders are generally where people start. That is why guilds bid top dollar for them.
If people had been looking for my cheap and semi-rare motif, they'd have found it. They didn't because the reason those motifs are both cheap and hard to find is they are low demand, so people don't have much reason to farm them item. If nobody is farming it, it's also not gonna be listed on many traders.Edited by spartaxoxo on December 30, 2022 8:53PM1 -
King_Jude✭✭✭"Currently you would agree that bidding for a guild trader in a refuge/thieves den is significantly cheaper than a capitol city trader right now right?"
It means the prime locations become as generic as any other trader. No need to bid high if location doesn't matter. The average price of trading spots would plummet. Sure the low end traders may increase in cost some but all that does is push out the guilds that get occasional traders. The difference in a low traffic trader cost and a high traffic trader cost is a few zeros at the end of the number. Low traffic traders going up some in price will not offset how drastic the cost of prime location traders will fall.
And you still create a situation where you are putting an end to a popular activity in the game. Some actually enjoy the hunt for a bargain. Rare items might be easier to find but they will be priced beyond more players ability to pay. It will be much easier for a player or two to corner the market on specific items.
Also need to address strain on the server. An app that only searched one guild at a time had to be toned down because it was causing server problems with the number of queries it was creating.
As generic you think all locations would be due to that change doesn't change the fact that guilds still need traders, guilds still don't know what other traders are bidding, so no guild would even know how much to lower their bids to. That aspect alone would take a long time for trader prices to even level out. It's a fact that players can not view other guild bids and you cannot deny that...
Not everyone enjoys spending hours looking for a bargain when the system should show it's availability immediately.
Wouldn't be a server issue, especially with the new servers that just got replaced.0 -
King_Jude✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Going to check out every trader in the game for an item that may or may not be present at any trader *at all* is "fine" apparently.
There are very few items rare enough that they may not exist anywhere in the game. And those items usually cost way more money than a casual players can afford. Someone who can buy something like the Sixth House Banner is already making money in this game just fine. If you want a regular rare item, you can usually find it at one of three hubs. Even on PS4 I was looking at like 15 minutes of time, and the load screens on last gen consoles are some of the worst of the worst. I've had to actually hunt for an item that was both rare and cheap really hard only a couple of times in the multiple years I've played this game.
I won't deny a central hub would make it easier to find. But, upending an entire economy over a very rare occurrence isn't a compelling argument to me personally.Having to join a guild to sell is "fine", apparently. Except to the very large number of people who plain *do not want* to join a guild, no it isn't.
So, sell in zone chat. Plenty of people make money doing that
How can you call it a rare occurrence if it's constant on console?
Because it's not a constant on console. The majority of what players buy, the items that actually move and don't need to be relisted, are available at the capital city traders. And frankly, they are generally easier to find at those traders too.
From a console gamer and a PC gamer, I can strongly attest to the notion that it's definitely an issue on console from experience, and just about every player I meet on console complaining about the same thing...
Yes. Many people on console have experienced it. It doesn't mean they experienced it regularly. I have a capital city traders every week. One reason that people have trouble finding certain cheap but rare items is because they don't move and they are cheap, so people don't bother to sell them. Their is a very low demand for them. I've had such items fail to sale at reasonable prices at some of the most high traffic traders in the game. Many players have experienced that issue. But they experience it rarely.
I don't feel like there's any supply and demand issue in elder scrolls online. That has never been an issue in elder scrolls online. The issue is that people can't find them. Also the issue is all of the extra work going into finding them.
If they can't find them, it is either a supply or demand issue. Not an issue with the guild traders. If the item was worth selling on traders and it was reasonable to get, it would be in the capital city traders.
Is the supplies out there but there's hundreds of guiltrators to look through It's not a supply issue if it's out there.
Again. It can be a supply or demand issue. Like for example, I have sold cheap and rare motifs that nobody wanted and stayed listed at a cap city traders for over a month. I haven't had to relist them twice. But a couple of months before someone wants them means that the demand isn't there. It wasn't hard to get, so if the money was there it would be on traders. The supply is low because the demand is low for that item.
Upending a healthy economy because on rare occasion someone has to shop around does not make sense.
It was listed at a capital city traders. This is by far the most shopped traders in the game. You don't have to go through hundreds of traders to know that the capital city traders should be your first stop. Most players figure that out quickly and go to them first. That's why they command such a high bidding price. Anyone searching for that item, they'd have found the item in minutes.
Here me out... Has it ever occurred to you that those rare motifs that were never purchased because players didn't happen to come across your specific product because they didn't come to your specific guild trader?
Again. I am at the most popular guild trading spots in the game very nearly every single week. You speak as if I'm talking about in the outlaws refuge of Rivenspire. The stuff isn't selling in places like Stormhaven.
That still doesn't answer the question. You can be at the popular location but it doesn't change the fact that there's multiple popular location and not everyone checks them all...0 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭From a players perspective the trading system in ESO is awful.
We are forced to spend hours of time visiting various traders in order to find the items we need or want at a decent price.
If you want to Sell ANYTHING you are forced to try and join a Trading Guild, and you are then hassled with dues and requirements and additional fees just to sell items to other players.
If you try to sell through chat, you are likely to get reported for spamming - and / or ignored by other players.
Before anyone replies with "oh but add-ons" - we should not have to reply on 3rd party addons in order to be able to participate in the games economy. Period.
I also anticipate "oh but you dont HAVE to do any of the above", but yes, if you want to participate in ESO's system and sell your items to players at all - the above is a requirement to do so. Selling materials and items to other players requires a Trading guild! (selling to individual players through trading is not a workable solution!)
If a player wanted to try and get their own guild into the trading game - it is literally a full time job trying to raise the gold to be able to participate and compete in the system. This leads to so many more issues down the line.
The thought that not having a central trading system in an MMO would be a good idea is likely a big contributing factor to the overall decline in active or returning players.
Thank you for being honest and realistic with everyone. I just can't understand how people don't see these issues.
Not really honest though. I am in a trading guild that does not require any dues or minimum sales at all. They are also active in other aspects of the game. I am in a guild that gets a trader about once every two months in what I would call a medium tier location. When they get a trader I fill up my thirty slots and usually make between five and seven million that one week.
I am also in a guild that requires 3k gold a week for dues. You can opt out of paying the dues if you join one of a select few guild events. They get a pretty decent spot each week. That guild is where I list the rare items or items new to the game because I can list for more gold as I don't mind if the items sit for a while.
I also sell common motifs and other things to guild members in a guild that never has a public trader. It is a guild that caters to helping new players so they need those common motifs. I list them at very reduced prices instead of clogging the bank with them.
The current system offers a variety of ways to participate and players can participate at any level. Kind of like how some players only occasionally run a normal trial and some are in guilds that compete for the leader board. You don't say trials should be overhauled because not everyone can get a hard mode trifecta. So why demand trading be overhauled because some don't wish to partake?
Getting gear in this game has been made so much more easier than when we started. I see no problem with having to spend time whether through searching traders or farming the gear yourself. If everything was instant we would quickly become bored and move on.
One other thought. You have claimed a central system would bring down prices. If that were true what incentive would players that are now providing those items have for continuing to do so? You are assuming more supply but that would likely not be the case.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."2 -
Northwold✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭From a players perspective the trading system in ESO is awful.
We are forced to spend hours of time visiting various traders in order to find the items we need or want at a decent price.
If you want to Sell ANYTHING you are forced to try and join a Trading Guild, and you are then hassled with dues and requirements and additional fees just to sell items to other players.
If you try to sell through chat, you are likely to get reported for spamming - and / or ignored by other players.
Before anyone replies with "oh but add-ons" - we should not have to reply on 3rd party addons in order to be able to participate in the games economy. Period.
I also anticipate "oh but you dont HAVE to do any of the above", but yes, if you want to participate in ESO's system and sell your items to players at all - the above is a requirement to do so. Selling materials and items to other players requires a Trading guild! (selling to individual players through trading is not a workable solution!)
If a player wanted to try and get their own guild into the trading game - it is literally a full time job trying to raise the gold to be able to participate and compete in the system. This leads to so many more issues down the line.
The thought that not having a central trading system in an MMO would be a good idea is likely a big contributing factor to the overall decline in active or returning players.
Yes. I quit the game because of it. I participate in discussions on the subject from time to time but ESO became literally a waste of my time and my life. I will not join a guild -- I do not want to and will not do so -- and making money in other ways / farming in ESO for literally every item you might ever need is completely absurd and unhealthy, particularly when a big part of my own game was housing.
Any game that you need to play multiple days per week for literally hours at a time to get anywhere makes me think "no, this is less a game than an addiction mechanism and spending this much time on it is actually pretty sad". Especially when playing it that way isn't even fun. It's working.
It is bad design that satisfies a niche of players when it is a fundamentally important game system that needs to be easily usable by ALL players (not least because if you cannot easily plug yourself into the sell-side, you cannot follow the rates of price inflation on the buying side). For the kind of player who does not see trading as a mini game, it completely imbalances how the game is played and, over time, renders it completely devoid of enjoyment.Edited by Northwold on December 30, 2022 9:04PM1 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Zodiarkslayer wrote: »
I spoke on how bidding wouldn't change... I only talked about improving the current system, not dismantling it. How you obtain a guild trader isn't what I want to change, the features that guild traders provide is what I want updated. We need more features. I've explained this. Gotta read the whole post.
Oh c'mon. You cannot be so naive!
Noone would be bidding on something that isn't special, but just like everything else. No trade guild would be bidding serious money on a spot.
A global market board is going to erase the need to bid beyond a certain very low level. The whole psychology of auctioning would be shattered.
There will be 50% to 80% less gold siphoned out of the system (my estimation).
I think I understand your issue here... You keep bringing up bidding, and an auction house. But there's no form of bidding that you would do... You see an item, you purchase as you do now, you wouldn't have to bid for it, [snip]
Where's your basis on that percentage of less gold being siphoned out of the game?
People mentioning bidding are talking about the guild traders themselves, not the items they sell. Guilds have to bid on a trader location. The highest bid wins the spot for the week.
If trader locations still exist but only for pure RP value (which is what your system would be; every stall would show all the listings in the entire game, therefore every stall is just as convenient as the next, just depends on where you happen to be), no spot would be more coveted than the next because location would no longer matter. player123 can buy a stack of columbine in Wayrest from gamer456 or the same stack of columbine from the same player if they visit a stall in Marbruk. To that end, the current gold being siphoned out of the economy by guilds bidding on locations would drastically decrease because location would not matter and guilds that are paying millions of gold per week for prime capitol locations would no longer need to spend near as much because they could just as easily sell their items in a thieves den location because their listing will still show to people shopping in capitol cities. That's what people mean when they discuss the cons of your system and how it affects bidding.
I've addressed this already, but let me ask you a couple questions directly so you can understand the answers.
Currently you would agree that bidding for a guild trader in a refuge/thieves den is significantly cheaper than a capitol city trader right now right?
This would also mean that if players could go to one location and see every item listed from all traders, then the value of all the trash location traders become a higher value right?
That would mean guilds who bid low for trash locations would have to bid higher overall just to obtain any location right?
There's 100s of traders, so if all the prices of the 100s of traders were to go up because all of them have equal value, that means more gold is being sinked rather than just the capital city locations right?
So yes high end trade guilds would spend less money, but now every guild in the game that can acquire a guild trader has to spend more money... So if you're worried about the gold sink being an issue, it's actually improved the gold sink by making it a larger amount of gold being taken out of the game...
I don’t think you appreciate just how much gold a bid in a prime location costs.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on December 31, 2022 6:42PM2 -
RevJJ✭✭✭✭✭
✭I_killed_Vivec wrote: »[
That isn't how it works - all traders will have equal value, therefore all traders cost the same. But not all traders will go up in price.
Eventually, and I doubt it will take long, all the current traders will have settled on the nominal price for a trader - just enough to make sure you get one, not so much that it would hurt your profits. There will be no niche locations, low cost traders that more casual trading guilds can afford on a regular basis. A trader in an isolated location will cost as much as one in one of the major trading cities. There will be no massive gold sinks because all traders will cost the same - the current popular locations will level down because the big trading guilds that can currently afford them will reduce their spending, confident that they can still outspend the casual guilds who struggle to hold onto any trader.
They would then become cemented in place - it would be incredibly difficult for a new trading guild to make a successful bid, and even if they did they would probably exhaust all their resources and they would not be able to keep it the next week.
It certainly will not help new players (and players with less gold) because they will still need to be members of a successful guild if they wish to trade - just like they do now.
(Emphasis mine)
And because the big trading guilds would have a smaller gold sink they could easily start side guilds just to buy up more trader spots.3 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I_killed_Vivec wrote: »[
That isn't how it works - all traders will have equal value, therefore all traders cost the same. But not all traders will go up in price.
Eventually, and I doubt it will take long, all the current traders will have settled on the nominal price for a trader - just enough to make sure you get one, not so much that it would hurt your profits. There will be no niche locations, low cost traders that more casual trading guilds can afford on a regular basis. A trader in an isolated location will cost as much as one in one of the major trading cities. There will be no massive gold sinks because all traders will cost the same - the current popular locations will level down because the big trading guilds that can currently afford them will reduce their spending, confident that they can still outspend the casual guilds who struggle to hold onto any trader.
They would then become cemented in place - it would be incredibly difficult for a new trading guild to make a successful bid, and even if they did they would probably exhaust all their resources and they would not be able to keep it the next week.
It certainly will not help new players (and players with less gold) because they will still need to be members of a successful guild if they wish to trade - just like they do now.
(Emphasis mine)
And because the big trading guilds would have a smaller gold sink they could easily start side guilds just to buy up more trader spots.
That is another (real) danger.2 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Zodiarkslayer wrote: »
I spoke on how bidding wouldn't change... I only talked about improving the current system, not dismantling it. How you obtain a guild trader isn't what I want to change, the features that guild traders provide is what I want updated. We need more features. I've explained this. Gotta read the whole post.
Oh c'mon. You cannot be so naive!
Noone would be bidding on something that isn't special, but just like everything else. No trade guild would be bidding serious money on a spot.
A global market board is going to erase the need to bid beyond a certain very low level. The whole psychology of auctioning would be shattered.
There will be 50% to 80% less gold siphoned out of the system (my estimation).
I think I understand your issue here... You keep bringing up bidding, and an auction house. But there's no form of bidding that you would do... You see an item, you purchase as you do now, you wouldn't have to bid for it, [snip]
Where's your basis on that percentage of less gold being siphoned out of the game?
People mentioning bidding are talking about the guild traders themselves, not the items they sell. Guilds have to bid on a trader location. The highest bid wins the spot for the week.
If trader locations still exist but only for pure RP value (which is what your system would be; every stall would show all the listings in the entire game, therefore every stall is just as convenient as the next, just depends on where you happen to be), no spot would be more coveted than the next because location would no longer matter. player123 can buy a stack of columbine in Wayrest from gamer456 or the same stack of columbine from the same player if they visit a stall in Marbruk. To that end, the current gold being siphoned out of the economy by guilds bidding on locations would drastically decrease because location would not matter and guilds that are paying millions of gold per week for prime capitol locations would no longer need to spend near as much because they could just as easily sell their items in a thieves den location because their listing will still show to people shopping in capitol cities. That's what people mean when they discuss the cons of your system and how it affects bidding.
I've addressed this already, but let me ask you a couple questions directly so you can understand the answers.
Currently you would agree that bidding for a guild trader in a refuge/thieves den is significantly cheaper than a capitol city trader right now right?
This would also mean that if players could go to one location and see every item listed from all traders, then the value of all the trash location traders become a higher value right?
That would mean guilds who bid low for trash locations would have to bid higher overall just to obtain any location right?
There's 100s of traders, so if all the prices of the 100s of traders were to go up because all of them have equal value, that means more gold is being sinked rather than just the capital city locations right?
So yes high end trade guilds would spend less money, but now every guild in the game that can acquire a guild trader has to spend more money... So if you're worried about the gold sink being an issue, it's actually improved the gold sink by making it a larger amount of gold being taken out of the game...
I don’t think you appreciate just how much gold a bid in a prime location costs.
In all fairness, most players don't. Most trading guilds don't advertise that amount because they fear being sniped for their spot for good reason.
However, back during the Rawl'kha incident in 2019 when someone bought out all the Rawl'kha guilds and left them practically empty, one of the GMs released proof of their losing bid: 22.5 million.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6072752/#Comment_6072752
https://amp.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/bs4wmy/ever_wonder_how_much_a_rawlkha_bid_costs_on_pcna/
Meanwhile, when I was a Guild Officer, our Craglorn trader was more like 2-3 million a week. I'm sure that's gone up since that was several years ago at this point.
If location didn't matter and all the items could be bought from a central location, I'm pretty sure that most guild trader bids would equalize closer to the lower end of that scale, not the higher end, thus resulting in a loss of the gold sink. At least, we'd better hope so, because if it equalizes at the high end, there's a lot of guilds who are going to have to raise their requirements to fund the more expensive bids.
The only way around that loss is for ZOS to put in additional fees on the Centralized Market that match the gold previously taken out from the Guild Trader bids. Ironically, non-guilded players who buy but don't sell would wind up paying more fees than under the current system which primarily targets guilded players who sell with the gold sinks.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on December 31, 2022 6:43PM3 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Going to check out every trader in the game for an item that may or may not be present at any trader *at all* is "fine" apparently.
There are very few items rare enough that they may not exist anywhere in the game. And those items usually cost way more money than a casual players can afford. Someone who can buy something like the Sixth House Banner is already making money in this game just fine. If you want a regular rare item, you can usually find it at one of three hubs. Even on PS4 I was looking at like 15 minutes of time, and the load screens on last gen consoles are some of the worst of the worst. I've had to actually hunt for an item that was both rare and cheap really hard only a couple of times in the multiple years I've played this game.
I won't deny a central hub would make it easier to find. But, upending an entire economy over a very rare occurrence isn't a compelling argument to me personally.Having to join a guild to sell is "fine", apparently. Except to the very large number of people who plain *do not want* to join a guild, no it isn't.
So, sell in zone chat. Plenty of people make money doing that
How can you call it a rare occurrence if it's constant on console?
Because it's not a constant on console. The majority of what players buy, the items that actually move and don't need to be relisted, are available at the capital city traders. And frankly, they are generally easier to find at those traders too.
From a console gamer and a PC gamer, I can strongly attest to the notion that it's definitely an issue on console from experience, and just about every player I meet on console complaining about the same thing...
Yes. Many people on console have experienced it. It doesn't mean they experienced it regularly. I have a capital city traders every week. One reason that people have trouble finding certain cheap but rare items is because they don't move and they are cheap, so people don't bother to sell them. Their is a very low demand for them. I've had such items fail to sale at reasonable prices at some of the most high traffic traders in the game. Many players have experienced that issue. But they experience it rarely.
I don't feel like there's any supply and demand issue in elder scrolls online. That has never been an issue in elder scrolls online. The issue is that people can't find them. Also the issue is all of the extra work going into finding them.
If they can't find them, it is either a supply or demand issue. Not an issue with the guild traders. If the item was worth selling on traders and it was reasonable to get, it would be in the capital city traders.
Is the supplies out there but there's hundreds of guiltrators to look through It's not a supply issue if it's out there.
Again. It can be a supply or demand issue. Like for example, I have sold cheap and rare motifs that nobody wanted and stayed listed at a cap city traders for over a month. I haven't had to relist them twice. But a couple of months before someone wants them means that the demand isn't there. It wasn't hard to get, so if the money was there it would be on traders. The supply is low because the demand is low for that item.
Upending a healthy economy because on rare occasion someone has to shop around does not make sense.
It was listed at a capital city traders. This is by far the most shopped traders in the game. You don't have to go through hundreds of traders to know that the capital city traders should be your first stop. Most players figure that out quickly and go to them first. That's why they command such a high bidding price. Anyone searching for that item, they'd have found the item in minutes.
Here me out... Has it ever occurred to you that those rare motifs that were never purchased because players didn't happen to come across your specific product because they didn't come to your specific guild trader?
Again. I am at the most popular guild trading spots in the game very nearly every single week. You speak as if I'm talking about in the outlaws refuge of Rivenspire. The stuff isn't selling in places like Stormhaven.
That still doesn't answer the question. You can be at the popular location but it doesn't change the fact that there's multiple popular location and not everyone checks them all...
No. Not everyone. But if someone was willing to hunt across all of the guild traders for a rare item, which was the scenario you posed, there's very little chance they wouldn't check the popular ones for two months. It didn't sell because people weren't interested in it.4 -
I_killed_Vivec✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭From a players perspective the trading system in ESO is awful.
We are forced to spend hours of time visiting various traders in order to find the items we need or want at a decent price.
If you want to Sell ANYTHING you are forced to try and join a Trading Guild, and you are then hassled with dues and requirements and additional fees just to sell items to other players.
If you try to sell through chat, you are likely to get reported for spamming - and / or ignored by other players.
Before anyone replies with "oh but add-ons" - we should not have to reply on 3rd party addons in order to be able to participate in the games economy. Period.
I also anticipate "oh but you dont HAVE to do any of the above", but yes, if you want to participate in ESO's system and sell your items to players at all - the above is a requirement to do so. Selling materials and items to other players requires a Trading guild! (selling to individual players through trading is not a workable solution!)
If a player wanted to try and get their own guild into the trading game - it is literally a full time job trying to raise the gold to be able to participate and compete in the system. This leads to so many more issues down the line.
The thought that not having a central trading system in an MMO would be a good idea is likely a big contributing factor to the overall decline in active or returning players.
But... none of the OP's proposals would change anything for people who want to sell.
You would still be forced to join a guild.
Your guild still has to raise enough gold to buy a trader, and would still have to compete each week to maintain a selling position.5 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I_killed_Vivec wrote: »From a players perspective the trading system in ESO is awful.
We are forced to spend hours of time visiting various traders in order to find the items we need or want at a decent price.
If you want to Sell ANYTHING you are forced to try and join a Trading Guild, and you are then hassled with dues and requirements and additional fees just to sell items to other players.
If you try to sell through chat, you are likely to get reported for spamming - and / or ignored by other players.
Before anyone replies with "oh but add-ons" - we should not have to reply on 3rd party addons in order to be able to participate in the games economy. Period.
I also anticipate "oh but you dont HAVE to do any of the above", but yes, if you want to participate in ESO's system and sell your items to players at all - the above is a requirement to do so. Selling materials and items to other players requires a Trading guild! (selling to individual players through trading is not a workable solution!)
If a player wanted to try and get their own guild into the trading game - it is literally a full time job trying to raise the gold to be able to participate and compete in the system. This leads to so many more issues down the line.
The thought that not having a central trading system in an MMO would be a good idea is likely a big contributing factor to the overall decline in active or returning players.
But... none of the OP's proposals would change anything for people who want to sell.
You would still be forced to join a guild.
Your guild still has to raise enough gold to buy a trader, and would still have to compete each week to maintain a selling position.
It would change one thing for people who want to sell. Even the creator of this thread admits so. It would bring down the prices of common items and materials. That isn't the main point I have been arguing though.
The change would end the economy as we know it. Many players treat the economy as their end game activity. They enjoy looking for bargains and flipping items. That would come to an end and they would leave the game. The change would also drive up the prices of rare items if there were any rare items to be had. If the creator of this thread is correct there would be less incentive to farm rare items to put in traders. That means less supply.
A central system also makes it easier to corner the market on rare items so a couple of people sitting at the market sight could buy all of one item and sit on them for a period of time before letting them go at outrageous prices. With our current system that can't happen.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."4 -
Vulkunne✭✭✭✭✭
✭FlopsyPrince wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Going to check out every trader in the game for an item that may or may not be present at any trader *at all* is "fine" apparently.
There are very few items rare enough that they may not exist anywhere in the game. And those items all cost way more money than a casual players can afford. If you want a regular rare item, you can usually find it at one of three hubs. Even on PS4 I was looking at like 15 minutes of time, and the load screens on last gen consoles are some of the worst of the worst.Having to join a guild to sell is "fine", apparently. Except to the very large number of people who plain *do not want* to join a guild, no it isn't.
So, sell in zone chat. Plenty of people make money doing that
I surrender. This is exactly what I am talking about.
I can't see "sell in zone chat" as a good recommendation for any player. Some must make money, but it is annoying and only applies to some things.
It's a pointless suggestion (because as a selling mechanic it is worthless) that is used to dismiss any complaint or productive idea re trading and has been deployed as such in every discussion of trading I've participated in on this forum. So I'm probably going to check out of the discussion here it's not productive.
For a number of years I sold exclusively in zone chat. Mostly commodities, especially things like Alchemy ingredients, including other things such as motifs. Had my own issues with Guilds as many I had run across during that time were kind of arrogant and selfish.
Eventually I was invited to several really good trade guilds and now sell from there. One reason to go with a Guild is many of these Guilds spend an enormous amount of gold on Kiosks for each week and the tax money helps them with maint costs.
Something I wouldn't mind seeing however is the implementation of a chat channel solely dedicated for the purpose of trade, like New World has and it works great. Guilds could use this to advertise from as well. Just one minor change that doesn't ruin the ESO experience and could provide some incentive for expanding trade a bit.
It could have all of that and more. I feel like the current guild trader system ruins the experience as it is. You used to sell in chat and felt players/guilds were selfish until you finally found a guild that you liked to use their traders, yet you don't even see the irony in that... Even with that system is still hinders players but you turn the other cheek.
*shrugs* I still feel that way to be honest, as I am in favor of zone sales (although could just be organized better).
With regards to guilds, it is quite telling especially when you consider the guilds I'm currently with, have proven themselves to be reasonable while others have proven otherwise.
And yes, this is ironic because it proves that good guilds do exist in spite of it all.Edited by Vulkunne on December 31, 2022 1:33AMThank you for your attention to this matter.0 -
King_Jude✭✭✭From a players perspective the trading system in ESO is awful.
We are forced to spend hours of time visiting various traders in order to find the items we need or want at a decent price.
If you want to Sell ANYTHING you are forced to try and join a Trading Guild, and you are then hassled with dues and requirements and additional fees just to sell items to other players.
If you try to sell through chat, you are likely to get reported for spamming - and / or ignored by other players.
Before anyone replies with "oh but add-ons" - we should not have to reply on 3rd party addons in order to be able to participate in the games economy. Period.
I also anticipate "oh but you dont HAVE to do any of the above", but yes, if you want to participate in ESO's system and sell your items to players at all - the above is a requirement to do so. Selling materials and items to other players requires a Trading guild! (selling to individual players through trading is not a workable solution!)
If a player wanted to try and get their own guild into the trading game - it is literally a full time job trying to raise the gold to be able to participate and compete in the system. This leads to so many more issues down the line.
The thought that not having a central trading system in an MMO would be a good idea is likely a big contributing factor to the overall decline in active or returning players.
Yes. I quit the game because of it. I participate in discussions on the subject from time to time but ESO became literally a waste of my time and my life. I will not join a guild -- I do not want to and will not do so -- and making money in other ways / farming in ESO for literally every item you might ever need is completely absurd and unhealthy, particularly when a big part of my own game was housing.
Any game that you need to play multiple days per week for literally hours at a time to get anywhere makes me think "no, this is less a game than an addiction mechanism and spending this much time on it is actually pretty sad". Especially when playing it that way isn't even fun. It's working.
It is bad design that satisfies a niche of players when it is a fundamentally important game system that needs to be easily usable by ALL players (not least because if you cannot easily plug yourself into the sell-side, you cannot follow the rates of price inflation on the buying side). For the kind of player who does not see trading as a mini game, it completely imbalances how the game is played and, over time, renders it completely devoid of enjoyment.
I couldn't agree more! Thanks for being honest. Earlier in the forums people were really trying to tell me that people don't quit due to the frustration of this system... I don't understand how they think they could speak for someone else in that aspect when they never heard the testimonials of those individuals or even cared to hear it.1 -
King_Jude✭✭✭FlopsyPrince wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Going to check out every trader in the game for an item that may or may not be present at any trader *at all* is "fine" apparently.
There are very few items rare enough that they may not exist anywhere in the game. And those items all cost way more money than a casual players can afford. If you want a regular rare item, you can usually find it at one of three hubs. Even on PS4 I was looking at like 15 minutes of time, and the load screens on last gen consoles are some of the worst of the worst.Having to join a guild to sell is "fine", apparently. Except to the very large number of people who plain *do not want* to join a guild, no it isn't.
So, sell in zone chat. Plenty of people make money doing that
I surrender. This is exactly what I am talking about.
I can't see "sell in zone chat" as a good recommendation for any player. Some must make money, but it is annoying and only applies to some things.
It's a pointless suggestion (because as a selling mechanic it is worthless) that is used to dismiss any complaint or productive idea re trading and has been deployed as such in every discussion of trading I've participated in on this forum. So I'm probably going to check out of the discussion here it's not productive.
For a number of years I sold exclusively in zone chat. Mostly commodities, especially things like Alchemy ingredients, including other things such as motifs. Had my own issues with Guilds as many I had run across during that time were kind of arrogant and selfish.
Eventually I was invited to several really good trade guilds and now sell from there. One reason to go with a Guild is many of these Guilds spend an enormous amount of gold on Kiosks for each week and the tax money helps them with maint costs.
Something I wouldn't mind seeing however is the implementation of a chat channel solely dedicated for the purpose of trade, like New World has and it works great. Guilds could use this to advertise from as well. Just one minor change that doesn't ruin the ESO experience and could provide some incentive for expanding trade a bit.
It could have all of that and more. I feel like the current guild trader system ruins the experience as it is. You used to sell in chat and felt players/guilds were selfish until you finally found a guild that you liked to use their traders, yet you don't even see the irony in that... Even with that system is still hinders players but you turn the other cheek.
*shrugs* I still feel that way to be honest, as I am in favor of zone sales (although could just be organized better).
With regards to guilds, it is quite telling especially when you consider the guilds I'm currently with, have proven themselves to be reasonable while others have proven otherwise.
And yes, this is ironic because it proves that good guilds do exist in spite of it all.
That's fine and great tbh, cause everyone loves a great guild. However this trader to trader migration system is honestly toxic.0 -
King_Jude✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »Zodiarkslayer wrote: »
I spoke on how bidding wouldn't change... I only talked about improving the current system, not dismantling it. How you obtain a guild trader isn't what I want to change, the features that guild traders provide is what I want updated. We need more features. I've explained this. Gotta read the whole post.
Oh c'mon. You cannot be so naive!
Noone would be bidding on something that isn't special, but just like everything else. No trade guild would be bidding serious money on a spot.
A global market board is going to erase the need to bid beyond a certain very low level. The whole psychology of auctioning would be shattered.
There will be 50% to 80% less gold siphoned out of the system (my estimation).
I think I understand your issue here... You keep bringing up bidding, and an auction house. But there's no form of bidding that you would do... You see an item, you purchase as you do now, you wouldn't have to bid for it, [snip]
Where's your basis on that percentage of less gold being siphoned out of the game?
People mentioning bidding are talking about the guild traders themselves, not the items they sell. Guilds have to bid on a trader location. The highest bid wins the spot for the week.
If trader locations still exist but only for pure RP value (which is what your system would be; every stall would show all the listings in the entire game, therefore every stall is just as convenient as the next, just depends on where you happen to be), no spot would be more coveted than the next because location would no longer matter. player123 can buy a stack of columbine in Wayrest from gamer456 or the same stack of columbine from the same player if they visit a stall in Marbruk. To that end, the current gold being siphoned out of the economy by guilds bidding on locations would drastically decrease because location would not matter and guilds that are paying millions of gold per week for prime capitol locations would no longer need to spend near as much because they could just as easily sell their items in a thieves den location because their listing will still show to people shopping in capitol cities. That's what people mean when they discuss the cons of your system and how it affects bidding.
I've addressed this already, but let me ask you a couple questions directly so you can understand the answers.
Currently you would agree that bidding for a guild trader in a refuge/thieves den is significantly cheaper than a capitol city trader right now right?
This would also mean that if players could go to one location and see every item listed from all traders, then the value of all the trash location traders become a higher value right?
That would mean guilds who bid low for trash locations would have to bid higher overall just to obtain any location right?
There's 100s of traders, so if all the prices of the 100s of traders were to go up because all of them have equal value, that means more gold is being sinked rather than just the capital city locations right?
So yes high end trade guilds would spend less money, but now every guild in the game that can acquire a guild trader has to spend more money... So if you're worried about the gold sink being an issue, it's actually improved the gold sink by making it a larger amount of gold being taken out of the game...
I don’t think you appreciate just how much gold a bid in a prime location costs.
In all fairness, most players don't. Most trading guilds don't advertise that amount because they fear being sniped for their spot for good reason.
However, back during the Rawl'kha incident in 2019 when someone bought out all the Rawl'kha guilds and left them practically empty, one of the GMs released proof of their losing bid: 22.5 million.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6072752/#Comment_6072752
https://amp.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/bs4wmy/ever_wonder_how_much_a_rawlkha_bid_costs_on_pcna/
Meanwhile, when I was a Guild Officer, our Craglorn trader was more like 2-3 million a week. I'm sure that's gone up since that was several years ago at this point.
If location didn't matter and all the items could be bought from a central location, I'm pretty sure that most guild trader bids would equalize closer to the lower end of that scale, not the higher end, thus resulting in a loss of the gold sink. At least, we'd better hope so, because if it equalizes at the high end, there's a lot of guilds who are going to have to raise their requirements to fund the more expensive bids.
The only way around that loss is for ZOS to put in additional fees on the Centralized Market that match the gold previously taken out from the Guild Trader bids. Ironically, non-guilded players who buy but don't sell would wind up paying more fees than under the current system which primarily targets guilded players who sell with the gold sinks.
I've already seen the results that the changes would bring and it's absolutely positive. There's always gonna be a tax on what's sold but that's the same in other MMORPGs.
During the incident you spoke up, people didn't lose money, they were just delayed on their sales. But you see where I'm getting at. Most guilds are reluctant to reveal what their actual bids are, so everyone is often stealth bidding in the dark, and there would be no way people can know the bids of 100s of traders.
It would literally a long extended time period for prices to level out. Guilds would be too scared to bit too low because they would be at risk of losing their guild trader. Plenty of guilds would be bidding too high in fear of not winning the bid war.
If more money is being taken out of the game due to more guilds paying more money for the average trader then there would be no incentive for zos to charge more money on taxes. The gold sink would be higher than ever before which means that it's working. Charging players more money for taxes on top of that really wouldn't make any sense.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on December 31, 2022 6:44PM0 -
King_Jude✭✭✭I_killed_Vivec wrote: »[
That isn't how it works - all traders will have equal value, therefore all traders cost the same. But not all traders will go up in price.
Eventually, and I doubt it will take long, all the current traders will have settled on the nominal price for a trader - just enough to make sure you get one, not so much that it would hurt your profits. There will be no niche locations, low cost traders that more casual trading guilds can afford on a regular basis. A trader in an isolated location will cost as much as one in one of the major trading cities. There will be no massive gold sinks because all traders will cost the same - the current popular locations will level down because the big trading guilds that can currently afford them will reduce their spending, confident that they can still outspend the casual guilds who struggle to hold onto any trader.
They would then become cemented in place - it would be incredibly difficult for a new trading guild to make a successful bid, and even if they did they would probably exhaust all their resources and they would not be able to keep it the next week.
It certainly will not help new players (and players with less gold) because they will still need to be members of a successful guild if they wish to trade - just like they do now.
(Emphasis mine)
And because the big trading guilds would have a smaller gold sink they could easily start side guilds just to buy up more trader spots.
Replying to both of these quotes at once. Just because the guild traders would be equalized doesn't mean that the prices would be equalized immediately That would take years due to nobody doing what the other guilds are bidding. If larger gills decided to make secondary gives like they already do currently it wouldn't really change anything in regard to affecting newer players and older players. These players can still join these guilds these gills aren't exclusive to particular members. If a girl charges a fee players have the option to opt in or opt out. Running a trader guild is a full-time job and these players would have to find other people willing to run secondary guilds as a full-time job. I doubt that these players have hundreds of people ready to start large trading guilds to do the same thing. Believe it or not it is hard to get that many good leaders to work with one another to accomplish these things.0 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Zodiarkslayer wrote: »Lol this game's gameplay and story makes the game appealing, each game has their pros and cons but this games economy should change and it would make the game top tier. So it's not about the whether or not you feel the game is for me or not, the game can be improved. Just like any other update in this game.
The problem is that you make all these claims and write nothing down to support them.
The economy should be this...
The game should do that...
The players want this...
My friends want that...
Why? Why should it?
Why should ESO be like WoW or FFXIV? Why? Why shouldn't it be ESO? It worked so far. Why is it suddenly failing?
Or have you been playing since launch and just now decided to share your insights?
Who are these players and what gives you the authority to speak for "silent majorities"? Where is the proof for that? Is there a poll you like to put foreward? From other sources maybe, like Reddit for example.
My own trading guild guild master spoke out against your opinions here and he speaks for over 2000 members of our community discord. Do you have something similar to put forward?
That is all we get from you. Opinions. No single reasoning. Proof. Context even. Nothing. No deep dive.
Please, please, please for the sake of discussion culture and your own opinions, please make an effort and explain yourself with arguments.
Edit: Typos
I replied to someone else answering all that quite recently actually, check it out. Also I've been provided proof we it's already a thing that works flawlessly in the games that I listed...
Find and dandy. But preferring a different system to the one we have is not a reason for any change. It is clear by the many transactions that occur every day that the current system works.
4 -
King_Jude✭✭✭Zodiarkslayer wrote: »Lol this game's gameplay and story makes the game appealing, each game has their pros and cons but this games economy should change and it would make the game top tier. So it's not about the whether or not you feel the game is for me or not, the game can be improved. Just like any other update in this game.
The problem is that you make all these claims and write nothing down to support them.
The economy should be this...
The game should do that...
The players want this...
My friends want that...
Why? Why should it?
Why should ESO be like WoW or FFXIV? Why? Why shouldn't it be ESO? It worked so far. Why is it suddenly failing?
Or have you been playing since launch and just now decided to share your insights?
Who are these players and what gives you the authority to speak for "silent majorities"? Where is the proof for that? Is there a poll you like to put foreward? From other sources maybe, like Reddit for example.
My own trading guild guild master spoke out against your opinions here and he speaks for over 2000 members of our community discord. Do you have something similar to put forward?
That is all we get from you. Opinions. No single reasoning. Proof. Context even. Nothing. No deep dive.
Please, please, please for the sake of discussion culture and your own opinions, please make an effort and explain yourself with arguments.
Edit: Typos
I replied to someone else answering all that quite recently actually, check it out. Also I've been provided proof we it's already a thing that works flawlessly in the games that I listed...
Find and dandy. But preferring a different system to the one we have is not a reason for any change. It is clear by the many transactions that occur every day that the current system works.
It doesn't work well, it just runs because it has too, bit it doesn't mean it works well... For example we had the same servers since launch... The old servers didn't work well, but it ran because it had too... Now we have better servers and that was a change that needed to happen. Just because a change hasn't happened since the game launched doesn't mean that any issue doesn't exist... As a game gets older, new improvements are added, new additions are added, fundamental changes happen, and this is easily the same exact concept that would great improve the game such as the new servers will.0
This discussion has been closed.