francesinhalover wrote: »

- Trial finder, daily trial, trials on vet require less damage than now and can have less mechanics.
- Vet dungs have less mechs
- Pve mode for cyro and imperial city where pvp is disabled and pvp rewards also (Telvar is decreased by a big ammount on pve mode)

In my opinion, ESO has always been mostly casual. It's the more hardcore folks (the minority) wanting more pvp content/more difficult pve content (myself included) who have been hollering from the hilltops for 8 years about it that resulted in the difficult/pvp content that currently exists. It's the reason Battlegrounds were implemented, (IMO), as an example.

That's not a bad thing, I just don't think ESO is overall a hardcore do-or-die game.

Hell NO. I’d never have played the game more than 6 months if it wasn’t for harder content, and would have given up 4 years ago if not for trials and trying to get all the HMs and Tris done. I only play games that reward skill and experience.

peacenote wrote: »

There is zero reason to make things easier for dungeons and trials because normal versions and non HM vet versions already exist. Literally all this would do is reduce the small amount of content (compared to the easy amount of content out there) available to those who like a challenge, like myself. Why would you want to reduce choice and exclude people? What benefit would there be??

PvP should not be taken out of PvP zones... the fact that you must dabble to go in helps create future PvP'ers. I say this as this happened to me. There is enough PvE content out there if you truly hate PvP so much that you never go to the PvP areas. And if it were ever done, rewards like Telvar should be nine, not greatly reduced. No PvP risk, no PvP reward.

I would be fine with a trial finder as that, in and of itself, wouldn't make the content easier.

Yes, it makes no sense, that makes sense is to reuse dungeons and trials as they did then they made the vet dungeons 2 and added normal and vet on all.
You can argue about balancing, I say some of the entry level vet dungeons especially BC 1 and Spindle 1 has one shots who makes the hard for low cp players even if they could manage much harder dungeons.

You can not balance PvP this way outside ranked arenas but the removal of 24 man groups made Cyrodil pugs inefficient.
Two reasons 1) You make an pug group, you add 11 people, 8 is on crown, 4 has siege, have fun trying to take any keep who with couple of guys with counter siege, in sort group is to weak to do anything than leach or take outposts.
2) you lead an guild pvp run, you see you will get 25-35 people today so you make an second group around 20, second group is told to take inn 10 pugs then getting ready to go, might add more once under way as you have spare capacity.
with 12 margins is much lower so you can not. At least on pc its ways to coordinate between groups anyway but adding 12 man pugs to the mix don't makes much sense more so with sets who make low health allies dangerous.

ProudMary wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

What do you mean if? The game went full casual with 1T after a year of it being out essentially. They cater towards the casual player just as every game essentially does since those are the players that make them money.

I've seen many posts of yours that claim it's the casual quest player that makes so much money for ZOS, but that makes no sense to me. Wouldn't it be the hardcore, daily player that wants the latest/greatest everything that spends the most money on the game? What makes you so sure it's the casual quest player that makes the most money for ZOS?

The number of hardcore daily players simply isn't that high they are just ridiculously over-represented on forums and social media.

Many of the hardcore daily players care less about cosmetic items than the casual players.

Many of the hardcore daily players also have easier access to obtain many items without buying crowns.

I don't define Casual by how much time someone spends playing, but rather by what they do when they are playing.

I play an average of 3 to 4 hours every afternoon and sometimes another hour or two in the evening, but I am definitely a Casual player because I don't do any hard core end game veteran content. I quest and do writs and decorate my houses... casual activities.

No one knows the "proof" of this pudding, because ZOS doesn't publish/share numbers. I know how much I spend (several hundred a year, including 3 annual subs plus 21k crown packs when on sale - though that could change if I'm not happy with the "new direction" coming in Q3 and Q4 next year); I have no idea who else spends how much, and really it's none of my business.

I consider myself a casual, even though I play for 7-8 hours a day, and sub plus buy crowns. I don't pvp, or do endgame pve, nor other group content.

I think ESO is better for having a wide variety of content as far as things like (1) PvE as well as PvP; (2) soloable as well as requiring a group of two or more players; (3) easy-to-kill enemies as well as difficult-to-kill enemies; and (4) activities such as crafting and housing and the card game which are of interest to some players but not to all players. I've never played any of the other MMOs out there, but I think any MMO should contain a wide variety of content if it wants to appeal to a wide variety (and hence a larger number) of players.

Unfortunately, this can mean that the playerbase can split up into groups who want to have little to do with each other, who seem to have little respect for each other, and who can be openly dismissive or antagonistic toward each other. I don't think that's a problem with the game; it's a problem with the players.

Speaking for myself, I love running around in overland areas, whether it's questing, harvesting nodes, or just exploring and admiring everything. I love running delves and dungeons (be they public dungeons or group dungeons), fighting world bosses, and doing the world incursion events (dolmens, geysers, volcanic vents, etc.). I love crafting, playing the card game, and collecting the player housing. I love PvE, but I also love getting involved in PvP-- mostly in Cyrodiil, but occasionally also in the Imperial City districts and sewers. I might not engage in all of those activities all the time; in fact, I love that I can play ESO on one day or at one hour and do one type of activity, then play it again at another time and do a totally different type of activity. And there are some types of activities which I haven't really engaged in yet, even though I might have dipped my toe into them at one time or another, such as arenas and trials, crafting my own furnishings and decorating all of my player housing, or creating new looks for my characters via outfitting. But I'd be disappointed if any of the activities I'm not actively engaging in, or am engaging in less often than the other activities, were to be removed from the game.

I'm for keeping the variety of content types and content difficulty levels that we already have. If anything, I think we should have more variety, not less.

ProudMary wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

ProudMary wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

What do you mean if? The game went full casual with 1T after a year of it being out essentially. They cater towards the casual player just as every game essentially does since those are the players that make them money.

I've seen many posts of yours that claim it's the casual quest player that makes so much money for ZOS, but that makes no sense to me. Wouldn't it be the hardcore, daily player that wants the latest/greatest everything that spends the most money on the game? What makes you so sure it's the casual quest player that makes the most money for ZOS?

By far the people that spend the most money on the game are the casual players. They / we make up around 90% of the playerbase probably (that's about the same as every other MMO). We are the parents really that no longer have 10 hours to play and then 5 hours to raid. We also have disposable income to buy crowns on a monthly basis. I pay the annual sub so 149$ I believe. Then every month I spend 39.99$ for the 5500 crown pack. then if they go on sale I'll spend another 100$ for the 21k crowns. So annually they make at min 1000$/year just from me. I'll drop more if there is a house they put up or something and I don't have the crowns to buy it.

Your average pvper and end game pve player aren't dropping literally thousands a year for housing, or furnishing packs. Obviously there are exceptions to every rule, but normally this is the case. So the casual players are the ones that are dumping millions a year into the game. That is what keeps it running.

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

ProudMary wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

What do you mean if? The game went full casual with 1T after a year of it being out essentially. They cater towards the casual player just as every game essentially does since those are the players that make them money.

I've seen many posts of yours that claim it's the casual quest player that makes so much money for ZOS, but that makes no sense to me. Wouldn't it be the hardcore, daily player that wants the latest/greatest everything that spends the most money on the game? What makes you so sure it's the casual quest player that makes the most money for ZOS?

The number of hardcore daily players simply isn't that high they are just ridiculously over-represented on forums and social media.

Many of the hardcore daily players care less about cosmetic items than the casual players.

Many of the hardcore daily players also have easier access to obtain many items without buying crowns.

Castagere wrote: »

By far the people that spend the most money on the game are the casual players. They / we make up around 90% of the playerbase probably (that's about the same as every other MMO). We are the parents really that no longer have 10 hours to play and then 5 hours to raid. We also have disposable income to buy crowns on a monthly basis. I pay the annual sub so 149$ I believe. Then every month I spend 39.99$ for the 5500 crown pack. then if they go on sale I'll spend another 100$ for the 21k crowns. So annually they make at min 1000$/year just from me. I'll drop more if there is a house they put up or something and I don't have the crowns to buy it.

Your average pvper and end game pve player aren't dropping literally thousands a year for housing, or furnishing packs. Obviously there are exceptions to every rule, but normally this is the case. So the casual players are the ones that are dumping millions a year into the game. That is what keeps it running.[/q
This 100%
People on the forums want people and zos to believe that none of this is true.

I get this is a FEELING that some believe, but where's the proof? How do you know your feeling about this is factually accurate?

My experience is it's the end game PvE players that spend the most, followed closely by the hard core PvP players. The only people I know that have spent literally thousands of dollars on the game are the end game PvE and PvP players. Certainly they are the players that spend the most per account.

I also believe that it's only an opinion that the end game PvE and PvP community make up a small portion of the player population. I have no way of knowing what proportion of the player population are the end game community though.

I'm asking how someone who's not an employee of ZOS could so confidently state their belief as fact that it's the casual questers that generate the most financial support for the game.

Because I've put time into basically every major MMO since UO and it's the same patterns here.

Just look at any guild you're in that has 500 people. Now be honest, how many are in a prog group? How many are in Cyrodil or Battlegrounds? Maybe 20-30 for the program group? then maybe the same or slightly less for PvP. Even if a "Hardcore Trial Guild" there might be 2 or 3 groups that are consistently running with maybe 2 or 3 people rotating in and out in those groups.

The last I saw they posted saying they had 15 Million accounts. So if you look at roughly the same percentages that's what 12 Million casual players. Then 1.5 Million each on the "hardcore PvP/PvE". Lets assume you're right and the hardcore players spend double what casuals do. Let's say the casuals spend about the same as I do. I'm probably below average, but for argument sake. How much is that among casuals?

Now lets combine both PvP and PvE hardcore players they spend double so roughly 2,000 a year how much is that?

Now you're a ZoS excutive and you're ask yourself how do we keep the game alive and making money. Do we cater to the people spending twice as much but billions less, or do we cater to the largest player base making us a lot more money.

By the way acting like you don't know casuals make up the vast majority of the playerbase is you admitting you know they make up the vast majority of the playerbase. Nobody that plays an MMO of this size can honestly think they believe the majority of players are pushing leaderboards for trials, or solo arenas. I only PvP in Cyrodil during events and it never takes me long to get in. So there are maybe 100k people doing that at an given time.

Just admit casuals control the game the content is always going to be catered to them. At this point they know they can't balance PvP properly so they aren't going to, they aren't going to suddenly push out a ton more content for something will just complain about that isn't balanced. It makes no sense at all.

The most vocal groups on forums are always the extreme on both sides (so your hardcore players) because any minor change to a system can seriously effect their game play. The casual player will just respond with well that sucks, hate the new jab graphic, but meh whatever I'll deal with and get use to it.

ZoS will never give us exact numbers, like every other company but seriously just use your eyes and look where people are in the world and in your guild.

francesinhalover wrote: »

- Trial finder, daily trial, trials on vet require less damage than now and can have less mechanics.
- Vet dungs have less mechs
- Pve mode for cyro and imperial city where pvp is disabled and pvp rewards also (Telvar is decreased by a big ammount on pve mode)

- Trial finder, daily trial -> Why not ? Seems good idea.

- Trials on vet require less damage than now and can have less mechanics. / Vet dungs have less mechs -> Some mechanics are outdated or even broken, I wouldn't ask less mechanics, but more reliable gameplay. Some glitchy invincibility boss phase, or an unavoidable instadeath from nowhere are not "fun" things to play. Infinite stuns where you have to wait a random teammate to release you - if they ever think about it - are not fun either. And don't forget those horrible phases where the game doesn't display vital informations, or has glitchy/delayed visuals.

- Pve mode for cyro and imperial city -> Why would this happen ? Such move would probably kill the PvP side of the game, that's nonsense, unless these zones go full PvE and are replaced by a brand new PvP zone somewhere else.

I do believe the game could be harder, but in some fair way (as opposite to the current "glitchy" hard). Also please keep in mind I play on console, and from what I know, many addons on PC can already casualize the game.

I havent' been able to clear vet Vateshran with my fully-leveled stamDK yet, while I did beat Malenia in NG+3 solo (from another said to be "hard" game), that's not a skill issue, it's an issue with how clunky some mechanics can be.

Everyone here is only making assumptions, to be fair.

ProudMary wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

ProudMary wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

ProudMary wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

What do you mean if? The game went full casual with 1T after a year of it being out essentially. They cater towards the casual player just as every game essentially does since those are the players that make them money.

I've seen many posts of yours that claim it's the casual quest player that makes so much money for ZOS, but that makes no sense to me. Wouldn't it be the hardcore, daily player that wants the latest/greatest everything that spends the most money on the game? What makes you so sure it's the casual quest player that makes the most money for ZOS?

By far the people that spend the most money on the game are the casual players. They / we make up around 90% of the playerbase probably (that's about the same as every other MMO). We are the parents really that no longer have 10 hours to play and then 5 hours to raid. We also have disposable income to buy crowns on a monthly basis. I pay the annual sub so 149$ I believe. Then every month I spend 39.99$ for the 5500 crown pack. then if they go on sale I'll spend another 100$ for the 21k crowns. So annually they make at min 1000$/year just from me. I'll drop more if there is a house they put up or something and I don't have the crowns to buy it.

Your average pvper and end game pve player aren't dropping literally thousands a year for housing, or furnishing packs. Obviously there are exceptions to every rule, but normally this is the case. So the casual players are the ones that are dumping millions a year into the game. That is what keeps it running.

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

ProudMary wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

What do you mean if? The game went full casual with 1T after a year of it being out essentially. They cater towards the casual player just as every game essentially does since those are the players that make them money.

I've seen many posts of yours that claim it's the casual quest player that makes so much money for ZOS, but that makes no sense to me. Wouldn't it be the hardcore, daily player that wants the latest/greatest everything that spends the most money on the game? What makes you so sure it's the casual quest player that makes the most money for ZOS?

The number of hardcore daily players simply isn't that high they are just ridiculously over-represented on forums and social media.

Many of the hardcore daily players care less about cosmetic items than the casual players.

Many of the hardcore daily players also have easier access to obtain many items without buying crowns.

Castagere wrote: »

By far the people that spend the most money on the game are the casual players. They / we make up around 90% of the playerbase probably (that's about the same as every other MMO). We are the parents really that no longer have 10 hours to play and then 5 hours to raid. We also have disposable income to buy crowns on a monthly basis. I pay the annual sub so 149$ I believe. Then every month I spend 39.99$ for the 5500 crown pack. then if they go on sale I'll spend another 100$ for the 21k crowns. So annually they make at min 1000$/year just from me. I'll drop more if there is a house they put up or something and I don't have the crowns to buy it.

Your average pvper and end game pve player aren't dropping literally thousands a year for housing, or furnishing packs. Obviously there are exceptions to every rule, but normally this is the case. So the casual players are the ones that are dumping millions a year into the game. That is what keeps it running.[/q
This 100%
People on the forums want people and zos to believe that none of this is true.

I get this is a FEELING that some believe, but where's the proof? How do you know your feeling about this is factually accurate?

My experience is it's the end game PvE players that spend the most, followed closely by the hard core PvP players. The only people I know that have spent literally thousands of dollars on the game are the end game PvE and PvP players. Certainly they are the players that spend the most per account.

I also believe that it's only an opinion that the end game PvE and PvP community make up a small portion of the player population. I have no way of knowing what proportion of the player population are the end game community though.

I'm asking how someone who's not an employee of ZOS could so confidently state their belief as fact that it's the casual questers that generate the most financial support for the game.

Because I've put time into basically every major MMO since UO and it's the same patterns here.

Just look at any guild you're in that has 500 people. Now be honest, how many are in a prog group? How many are in Cyrodil or Battlegrounds? Maybe 20-30 for the program group? then maybe the same or slightly less for PvP. Even if a "Hardcore Trial Guild" there might be 2 or 3 groups that are consistently running with maybe 2 or 3 people rotating in and out in those groups.

The last I saw they posted saying they had 15 Million accounts. So if you look at roughly the same percentages that's what 12 Million casual players. Then 1.5 Million each on the "hardcore PvP/PvE". Lets assume you're right and the hardcore players spend double what casuals do. Let's say the casuals spend about the same as I do. I'm probably below average, but for argument sake. How much is that among casuals?

Now lets combine both PvP and PvE hardcore players they spend double so roughly 2,000 a year how much is that?

Now you're a ZoS excutive and you're ask yourself how do we keep the game alive and making money. Do we cater to the people spending twice as much but billions less, or do we cater to the largest player base making us a lot more money.

By the way acting like you don't know casuals make up the vast majority of the playerbase is you admitting you know they make up the vast majority of the playerbase. Nobody that plays an MMO of this size can honestly think they believe the majority of players are pushing leaderboards for trials, or solo arenas. I only PvP in Cyrodil during events and it never takes me long to get in. So there are maybe 100k people doing that at an given time.

Just admit casuals control the game the content is always going to be catered to them. At this point they know they can't balance PvP properly so they aren't going to, they aren't going to suddenly push out a ton more content for something will just complain about that isn't balanced. It makes no sense at all.

The most vocal groups on forums are always the extreme on both sides (so your hardcore players) because any minor change to a system can seriously effect their game play. The casual player will just respond with well that sucks, hate the new jab graphic, but meh whatever I'll deal with and get use to it.

ZoS will never give us exact numbers, like every other company but seriously just use your eyes and look where people are in the world and in your guild.

What you're saying is that it's your belief that it's the casual questers that generate the most revenue for ZOS. This is an assumption on your part, not a known fact. I don't believe you are an employee of ZOS, so you are just assuming you know where the bulk of the revenue is generated. Without being a ZOS employee there is no way to know for sure. As you say in your post, "ZOS will never give us exact numbers".

You're right I'm not, never said I was. Just look at the comments here. There are people straight telling you what they do and how they play.

If you're still fighting this cause there aren't hard released numbers you're just being delusional about it and nothing even hard numbers would prove it to you.

Just like they say about professional wrestling and why people watch. For those that enjoy it no explanation is necessary, if those that don't no explanation will be enough. Just use common sense.

ESO is already a casual mmo, imho a little too casual, which is a funny thing to say for a casual player like me.

Wing wrote: »

considering that forums are already a hardcore niche and voting casual has stigma against it the results surprise me.
in game pop must be like 85% casual at this point if the forums are this casual.

I see it mostly as a sign that most people are here because of TES - for the stories, for the lore. ESO being a TES game was the main selling point for many.