Why was Magnum Shot was changed to no longer knockback the user in 2019?

chessalavakia_ESO · December 2022

I believe I was taking a break from ESO back then so I missed the reason for the change and my searches haven't yielded much information. I was just wondering if the skill was changed for power level reasons, if the skill was changed due to player annoyance/engine issues, or if we don't know why the change was made.

Thanks for your time.

axi · December 2022

Magnum shot still knock enemies back.

Snowy_Wyndra_Karn · December 2022

Wait... Magnum was shot??

AcadianPaladin · December 2022

I do know that once before it was changed, my character was knocked back 'through' the surface of a wall requiring ZoS intervention to get her out. She dropped the skill from her bar after that.

VaranisArano · December 2022

I'll have a longer post coming, but short answer: it happened in the middle of the Devs' ability audit done in 2019.

Grizzbeorn · December 2022

I wasn't using that skill back then (I do now, though), so I was unaware of that component.
Seems like a very strange behavior to add to a player skill. I'm glad they removed it, because I wouldn't be using it if it still worked like that.

CP5 · December 2022

It would often put players into places they would get stuck, and the number of times players likely yeeted themselves off cliffs was probably high enough that they decided to solve those two issues by removing that part of the skill. Its range is also 22m now whereas before it was only 10, then 28 for a 'short' bit, so it is more useful at keeping distance with that at least.

VaranisArano · December 2022

So you want to look at the U23/Scalebreaker patch where it happened.
Patch Notes: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/488626/pc-mac-patch-notes-v5-1-5-scalebreaker-update-23

According to the patch notes, Scattershot got placed in the "Utility" category for balancing.

"Scatter Shot: This ability is now part of the utility category, with the below changes affect all 3 versions of the ability.
Increased the cost to 3780 from 2970.
Reduced the damage by approximately 10%.
Reduced the range to 22 meters from 28 meters.
Increased the knock back to 8 meters from 5 meters.
Magnum Shot (morph): This morph no longer knocks the caster back. Instead, it deals 20% more damage than the other morph, and reduces the cost to 3510.
Draining Shot (morph): The heal from this ability will now trigger upon dealing damage, rather than when the target is knocked back. Also decreased the heal by approximately 20%."
(Note that Draining Shot lost its knockback in the next patch, Dragonhold)

Okay, so what's that mean?

In context, ZOS was in the middle of their ability audit in 2019. They were recategorizing skills and adjusting skills that didn't fit neatly in to their assigned category. On the U23 PTS and Live, they state: "Our ability audit also continues in this update, with the goal of having abilities be more consistent with one another and how they interact with combat as a whole. You’ll find we’ve made a fairly substantial number of fixes and adjustments to combat abilities to support this goal." (Unfortunately, we don't have a Combat Preview for U23/Scalebreaker explaining it further that I could find, likely because a class rep leaked the patch notes early in protest.)

Okay, so let's look into this ability audit.

Fortunately, that's fairly well explained in the Update 22 Combat Direction post: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/466792/update-22-combat-direction/p1

It doesn't specifically explain the "Utility" category, but I suspect it's describing it here:

"Some abilities contained a LOT of functionality (Incapacitating Strike), and others not as much (Teleport Strike) when looking at abilities across the board. Moving forward, abilities within the same “Category” should have a base level of performance but also have something that makes it unique. In doing this pass, we found abilities that had components which were above or below base functionality and made adjustments to bring them in line. In some cases, base damage/healing has been increased make up for the removal of additional functions. In other cases, base damage/healing has been reduced to make up for adding in additional functions."

Given that one update later Magnum Shot had its damage increased in exchange for losing the self-knockback functionality, I suspect this is the best explanation you'll get for why the Devs changed it that way.

Hope this helps!

chessalavakia_ESO · December 2022

VaranisArano wrote: »

So you want to look at the U23/Scalebreaker patch where it happened.
Patch Notes: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/488626/pc-mac-patch-notes-v5-1-5-scalebreaker-update-23

According to the patch notes, Scattershot got placed in the "Utility" category for balancing.

"Scatter Shot: This ability is now part of the utility category, with the below changes affect all 3 versions of the ability.
Increased the cost to 3780 from 2970.
Reduced the damage by approximately 10%.
Reduced the range to 22 meters from 28 meters.
Increased the knock back to 8 meters from 5 meters.
Magnum Shot (morph): This morph no longer knocks the caster back. Instead, it deals 20% more damage than the other morph, and reduces the cost to 3510.
Draining Shot (morph): The heal from this ability will now trigger upon dealing damage, rather than when the target is knocked back. Also decreased the heal by approximately 20%."
(Note that Draining Shot lost its knockback in the next patch, Dragonhold)

Okay, so what's that mean?

In context, ZOS was in the middle of their ability audit in 2019. They were recategorizing skills and adjusting skills that didn't fit neatly in to their assigned category. On the U23 PTS and Live, they state: "Our ability audit also continues in this update, with the goal of having abilities be more consistent with one another and how they interact with combat as a whole. You’ll find we’ve made a fairly substantial number of fixes and adjustments to combat abilities to support this goal." (Unfortunately, we don't have a Combat Preview for U23/Scalebreaker explaining it further that I could find, likely because a class rep leaked the patch notes early in protest.)

Okay, so let's look into this ability audit.

Fortunately, that's fairly well explained in the Update 22 Combat Direction post: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/466792/update-22-combat-direction/p1

It doesn't specifically explain the "Utility" category, but I suspect it's describing it here:

"Some abilities contained a LOT of functionality (Incapacitating Strike), and others not as much (Teleport Strike) when looking at abilities across the board. Moving forward, abilities within the same “Category” should have a base level of performance but also have something that makes it unique. In doing this pass, we found abilities that had components which were above or below base functionality and made adjustments to bring them in line. In some cases, base damage/healing has been increased make up for the removal of additional functions. In other cases, base damage/healing has been reduced to make up for adding in additional functions."

Given that one update later Magnum Shot had its damage increased in exchange for losing the self-knockback functionality, I suspect this is the best explanation you'll get for why the Devs changed it that way.

Hope this helps!

Thanks, I've been fiddling with some ideas and wanted to check if self knockback was in the category of a mistake that wasn't happening again.

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

I do know that once before it was changed, my character was knocked back 'through' the surface of a wall requiring ZoS intervention to get her out. She dropped the skill from her bar after that.

Yeah, your post was one of the ones I found while looking up Magnum Shot that made me wonder if the ability was considered problematic enough to get the axe.

Grizzbeorn wrote: »

I wasn't using that skill back then (I do now, though), so I was unaware of that component.
Seems like a very strange behavior to add to a player skill. I'm glad they removed it, because I wouldn't be using it if it still worked like that.

It was useful at times back in the day for keeping a gap between yourself and your target while also dealing damage. I used it a fair bit against players in Battlegrounds and against harder npcs in Overland combat. Occasionally, the ability would kill you if you weren't mindful of your positing and at times it would glitch you into things.

Grizzbeorn · December 2022

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

It was useful at times back in the day for keeping a gap between yourself and your target while also dealing damage.

It does that now. Did it not knock-back or damage your target back then?

I certainly don't need help getting stuck in inescapable places.
I was running through Auridon the other day and jumped up on some rocks at the edge of a waterfall, and somehow in the process found a hole in the game environment into which I fell. I landed in the water, INSIDE the solid rock-face behind the waterfall and couldn't get out without using '/stuck.'

chessalavakia_ESO · December 2022

Grizzbeorn wrote: »

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

It was useful at times back in the day for keeping a gap between yourself and your target while also dealing damage.

It does that now. Did it not knock-back or damage your target back then?

I certainly don't need help getting stuck in inescapable places.
I was running through Auridon the other day and jumped up on some rocks at the edge of a waterfall, and somehow in the process found a hole in the game environment into which I fell. I landed in the water, INSIDE the solid rock-face behind the waterfall and couldn't get out without using '/stuck.'

It does that with targets that can be knocked back. If the target can't be knocked back, it doesn't make any space.

As the old version knocked you back it could be used to generate space against targets that could not be knocked back.

Grizzbeorn · December 2022

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

It does that with targets that can be knocked back. If the target can't be knocked back, it doesn't make any space.

As the old version knocked you back it could be used to generate space against targets that could not be knocked back.

Gotcha. Thanks!

ZOS_Icy · December 2022

Greetings,

This thread has been moved to the Players Helping Players section, as it is better suited there.

Thank you for your understanding.